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Puma Punku


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#631    Abramelin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 05:32 PM

View PostMortalscan, on 05 January 2010 - 04:57 PM, said:

This is what puzzling to me



they were able to melt metals?????? and better yet were did the metals come from???

http://www.anomalies...com/Clamps.html


The principal sources of silver are copper, copper-nickel, gold, lead, and lead-zinc ores obtained from Canada, (such as Cobalt, Ontario); Mexico (such as Batopilas); Peru; Bolivia; Australia; and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Silver_mining

Through its Bolivian subsidiary, Sinchi Wayra (which it acquired in 2005), Glencore operates six businesses in Bolivia that mine and process tin, silver, gold and zinc. [7] [8] ; notable among these has been Empresa Metalurgica Vinto, reportedly the world's largest privately-run smelter complex, located in the department of Oruro, which was seized and nationalized by Bolivian President Evo Morales on February 9, 2007. At the time of the seizure there were no plans to compensate Glencore. [9]

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Glencore

Nickle in Chile:
http://www.researcha..._market_for.pdf


Demand for the mercury compound vermilion was strong enough to support a large-scale mercury mining industry in the Andes as far back as 1400 B.C., according to a new study

Increasing levels of mercury pollution in sediments from two nearby lakes indicated the ancient mercury mining. The mining had started long before the Chavín culture—which Cooke described as "the cradle of complex Andean culture"—peaked, between 800 B.C. and 400 B.C. in central Peru.


http://news.national...n-missions.html




Edited by Abramelin, 05 January 2010 - 05:40 PM.


#632    Abramelin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 05:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 January 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

The principal sources of silver are copper, copper-nickel, gold, lead, and lead-zinc ores obtained from Canada, (such as Cobalt, Ontario); Mexico (such as Batopilas); Peru; Bolivia; Australia; and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Silver_mining

Through its Bolivian subsidiary, Sinchi Wayra (which it acquired in 2005), Glencore operates six businesses in Bolivia that mine and process tin, silver, gold and zinc. [7] [8] ; notable among these has been Empresa Metalurgica Vinto, reportedly the world's largest privately-run smelter complex, located in the department of Oruro, which was seized and nationalized by Bolivian President Evo Morales on February 9, 2007. At the time of the seizure there were no plans to compensate Glencore. [9]

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Glencore

Nickle in Chile:
http://www.researcha..._market_for.pdf


Demand for the mercury compound vermilion was strong enough to support a large-scale mercury mining industry in the Andes as far back as 1400 B.C., according to a new study

Increasing levels of mercury pollution in sediments from two nearby lakes indicated the ancient mercury mining. The mining had started long before the Chavín culture—which Cooke described as "the cradle of complex Andean culture"—peaked, between 800 B.C. and 400 B.C. in central Peru.


http://news.national...n-missions.html





Abstract
Analyses of silver–copper alloy artifacts from Machu Picchu show silver contents ranging from 24 to 81%. The tin present, ranging up to 3%, originated with the copper, perhaps from admixture of recycled bronze. The presence of 0.4–0.9% lead in the silver-rich phase indicates use of silver prepared by cupellation. All the objects had been forged after casting, some extensively. All have surface enhancement of the silver arising from depletion of the copper-rich phase. Some of the tin found at the site contains inclusions of hardhead (FeSn2) and of a nickel–arsenic–copper compound. Forming trials with duplicate silver–copper alloys show that intermediate anneals at temperatures between 500 and 600 °C facilitate making thin sheet artifacts. Mechanical tests show that the most commonly used alloys, containing 25–30% silver, are particularly well adapted to forging because of their uniform work hardening during plastic deformation. Annealing of the laboratory-made alloys in air followed by boiling in salty weak acid creates a silver-rich surface layer comparable to that found in the artifacts. Depletion forms a dense silver surface on the alloy containing more silver than the eutectic composition, but a porous surface layer on the 25% silver alloys.


Keywords: Machu Picchu; Silver–copper alloys; Tin; Depletion silvering

http://www.sciencedi...039d0f819ea5ca4

Edited by Abramelin, 05 January 2010 - 05:50 PM.


#633    Mortalscan

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:22 PM

arent you guys missing the point here???

very unusual alloy - 2.05% arsenic, 95.15% copper, 0.26% iron, 0.84% silicon and 1.70%
nickel. There is no source nickel anywhere in Bolivia. Also the rare alloy of nickel-bronze-arsenic requires
extremely high temperatures The Puma Punka brackets holes, when analyzed, showed platinum, a metal
which only melts at 1753 C and aluminum, which supposedly wasn't discovered and produced in quantity
until the 19th century.


No Nickel anywhere in Bolivia, metals required temp at 1753 c............Aluminum in 200bce 0r 8000bce???? even 500ad ????


#634    Abramelin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:55 PM

View PostMortalscan, on 05 January 2010 - 06:22 PM, said:

arent you guys missing the point here???

very unusual alloy - 2.05% arsenic, 95.15% copper, 0.26% iron, 0.84% silicon and 1.70%
nickel. There is no source nickel anywhere in Bolivia. Also the rare alloy of nickel-bronze-arsenic requires
extremely high temperatures The Puma Punka brackets holes, when analyzed, showed platinum, a metal
which only melts at 1753 C and aluminum, which supposedly wasn't discovered and produced in quantity
until the 19th century.


No Nickel anywhere in Bolivia, metals required temp at 1753 c............Aluminum in 200bce 0r 8000bce???? even 500ad ????


Did you even bother to click the links I posted??

What you think? That these people were couch potatoes or what? They travelled far and wide across the South American continent.

And the Mayans were great sailors, as well as the Incas as well as their ancestors. It is assumed that these people travelled along the western coast of Meso- and South America.

You people are creating a mystery based on nothing but your faulty ideas about what these people were capable of.

And there are ways to lower the melting point of an alloy. Maybe you don't know how, but I do, and very probably they did too.


#635    Harte

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:59 PM

View PostMortalscan, on 05 January 2010 - 06:22 PM, said:

arent you guys missing the point here???

very unusual alloy - 2.05% arsenic, 95.15% copper, 0.26% iron, 0.84% silicon and 1.70%
nickel. There is no source nickel anywhere in Bolivia. Also the rare alloy of nickel-bronze-arsenic requires
extremely high temperatures The Puma Punka brackets holes, when analyzed, showed platinum, a metal
which only melts at 1753 C and aluminum, which supposedly wasn't discovered and produced in quantity
until the 19th century.
Nickel is present in Bolivia, of course.  The fact that there is not today an operating nickel mine there is not indicative of a complete absence of nickel.

Besides, nickel, arsenic, iron, etc. are all present as contaminants, not as alloying elements.  The iron and the rest were not melted into the finished product, they are simply there n the product as contaminants.

Trace amounts of aluminum in any metal is not surprising in an area where aluminum is present.  Why would you think it was unusual?

Harte

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#636    Swede

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:17 PM

For a detailed analysis of Cu-As and Cu-Tn alloys as used in the Andean region see;

Lechtman, Heather N.
1996 "Arsenic Bronze: Dirty copper or a Chosen Alloy?" Journal of Field Archaeology Vol. 23 pp. 477-514.

Quite an exhaustive study. Just some brief quotes;

"There, arsenic bronze was always predominantly a central and north-central Andean alloy, developed and ised in large quantity in Ecuador and north and central Peru- precisely in the regions that are geologically rich in arsenic bearing copper ores (Lechtman 1981,1991; Hosler 1994; Shimeda 1985)". p.478

"Copper fixes arsenic. Once alloyed with copper, arsenic is difficult to remove". p.479

Lechtman also demonstrates the advantages of the alloys in relation to their hardness, ductility and malleability.

"Both alloys stand in the same general relation to air cooled and quenched steels". p.510

A combination of natural alloys and added alloying materials appears to have resulted in a number of grades of metal for varying applications, including applicable tool materials.

Other works by Lechtman on this topic are also available.


#637    zoser

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:34 PM

Whether or not Nickle and the other metallic elements are found in Bolivia is interesting, but by no means the whole mystery.

Remember - modern historians hold that this site was built by an indian culture circa 500AD.

Laughable I know.  Where did the technology come from to mix the metallic elements and create the conditions for smelting and pouring?

This is advanced stuff; just like the ability to cut 6mm grooves perfectly straight for 1m or more.  The people who think this is not a mystery need to think again.

Anyway - off now to watch a few episodes of 'Fringe'  B)


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#638    Oniomancer

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:36 PM

View PostMortalscan, on 05 January 2010 - 06:22 PM, said:

arent you guys missing the point here???

very unusual alloy - 2.05% arsenic, 95.15% copper, 0.26% iron, 0.84% silicon and 1.70%
nickel. There is no source nickel anywhere in Bolivia. Also the rare alloy of nickel-bronze-arsenic requires
extremely high temperatures The Puma Punka brackets holes, when analyzed, showed platinum, a metal
which only melts at 1753 C and aluminum, which supposedly wasn't discovered and produced in quantity
until the 19th century.


No Nickel anywhere in Bolivia, metals required temp at 1753 c............Aluminum in 200bce 0r 8000bce???? even 500ad ????
Oh there's a point being missed here alright. Did you bother to read the proportion numbers while you were typing them? 95.15% copper. The rest are barely trace levels, low enough to be written off as contaminants. The only way they're getting that high temp assumption is by using the melting point of a component that's barely even there. While There may not be nickel in Bolivia, (or at least not mine-able amounts) There is nickel in Peru...which is on the other side of lake Titicaca from Puma Punku.

I question why the clamp holes would be claimed to contain platinum and aluminum if the the clamps themselves are said to be of the copper mix. I would like to see a legitimate source citation for this. That aside, platinum indeed only melts at high temps, but in nugget form it's roughly as ductile as gold and can be cold-worked with relative ease.

http://mysite.du.edu...ys/platinum.htm

The alleged aluminum, if it exists, would be the only thing that's difficult to explain. Even then, native aluminum has been known to occur, albeit in vanishingly small amounts. It could again be taken as a contaminant since it's extremely common in other forms. Ordinary clay in fact is composed entirely of aluminous minerals.

Edited by Oniomancer, 05 January 2010 - 08:40 PM.

"Apparently the Lemurians drank Schlitz." - Intrepid "Real People" reporter on finding a mysterious artifact in the depths of Mount Shasta.

#639    Harte

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:52 PM

I feel it should be pointed out that the presence of the element aluminum does not indicate the presence of the metallic, pure version.

The world is filled with various oxides and hydroxides of aluminum.

The presence of, for example, aluminum hydroxide [AL(OH)3] aka Alum, as a contaminant would return quite a bit of aluminum as a component in a Atomic Absorption test of the metal.  Or in other tests that are used to determine the presence of elements in a material.

Alum, of course, would probably add nothing to the desireable properties of the metal being cast and would likely detract from them.

Harte

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Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
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#640    Oniomancer

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:03 PM

View PostHarte, on 05 January 2010 - 08:52 PM, said:

I feel it should be pointed out that the presence of the element aluminum does not indicate the presence of the metallic, pure version.

The world is filled with various oxides and hydroxides of aluminum.

The presence of, for example, aluminum hydroxide [AL(OH)3] aka Alum, as a contaminant would return quite a bit of aluminum as a component in a Atomic Absorption test of the metal.  Or in other tests that are used to determine the presence of elements in a material.

Alum, of course, would probably add nothing to the desireable properties of the metal being cast and would likely detract from them.

Harte
Exactly. Aluminum silicates (like feldspar, main component of most granites and therefore many ores) would conceivably do the same thing, though to different proportions.

(By "it" I meant aluminum in general earlier.)

Edited by Oniomancer, 05 January 2010 - 09:05 PM.

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#641    Abramelin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 10:59 PM

View Postzoser, on 05 January 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

Whether or not Nickle and the other metallic elements are found in Bolivia is interesting, but by no means the whole mystery.

Remember - modern historians hold that this site was built by an indian culture circa 500AD.

Laughable I know.  Where did the technology come from to mix the metallic elements and create the conditions for smelting and pouring?

This is advanced stuff; just like the ability to cut 6mm grooves perfectly straight for 1m or more.  The people who think this is not a mystery need to think again.

Anyway - off now to watch a few episodes of 'Fringe'  Posted Image


You didn't even bother to read ny links, right?

OK, good.

Dream on, sunny boy.

I will not be the one to wake you up from  your dreams.

But your ignorance about what people now or in the past are capable of is very telling.

Meaning: you do not know much about chemistry and alloys. Right?

Edited by Abramelin, 05 January 2010 - 11:02 PM.


#642    TheSearcher

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:35 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 January 2010 - 10:59 PM, said:

You didn't even bother to read ny links, right?

OK, good.

Dream on, sunny boy.

I will not be the one to wake you up from  your dreams.

But your ignorance about what people now or in the past are capable of is very telling.

Meaning: you do not know much about chemistry and alloys. Right?

Play nice now children. He's entitled to his opinion. This said, Zoser, you ought to read the links, they are very very interesting and might even enlighten you a tad.

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
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So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#643    zoser

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:56 AM

Abe

I don't wish to have a heated argument with you.  The difficulty always lies in subtle misunderstandings.

Let me try and explain one of them:

You claim that I am ignorant in terms of what people were capable of in those days.

Well to put the record straight, I am not in ignorant about it; in fact I am in intense awe about it.  It is mind boggling how people thousands of years ago created those diorite and granite constructions.

Somebody obvioulsy was capable of it because there it is for us all to see.  No one can argue with it!

The problem I have is that I am fully aware that the PP relics were not the creation of an indiginous people such as the Aymara, simply because nothing else has been found remotely resembling PP belonging to these people.  They had no writing, and by all evidence they were not a technically minded people, but were more akin in habit, intellect and spirituality to the North American Indian.  There are I am sure subtle differences, but in essence you will find what I am saying to be correct.  This is where the drug argument stems from in the previous few posts.

The people that created PP were clearly different and had different aspirations in mind.  We do not know who they were, or where they came from, or indeed where they went.  However, by their deeds we can deduce certain things about them:

1) They must have had advanced planning skills.
2) They must have had advanced cutting and lifting skills.
3) They believed in a high degree of accuracy.  They were precise people, not sloppy, lazy or half hearted.
4) They must have had a high religious or scientific purpose in mind, to have attempted such a sophisticated creation in such a remote and inhospitable place.  The resources and conditions were not favourable to such intense labour.
5) They had some knowledge of smelting, and engineering as evidenced from the clamp joints.

Now here is a conjecture:

People in the past who have built cities and temples in high remote places were aiming at some esoteric and religious effort.  Anyone who has studied esoteric work knows that the higher one goes, the more rarified the air, and less polluted from human generation, both organic and artificial the atmosphere becomes.  (Atmospheres are very important in genuinely religious work, and some indication of this is given by the priests of Christian churches who incense before conducting services).  

Machu Picchu and Tibet are both good examples.  One could take this further and conjecture in terms of what could they have being trying to attract in such a remote and high location?  Think: Not many miles away can be found the Nazca Plains about which the speculation is well known.  There is no need to explain it here.  Also it is said that the Maya seemingly disapperared with no trace of decendants!

So arguing about the fine end of metallic compounds and melting points is interesting, and by all means continue down this line.  I am not ignoring your efforts Abe, it's just that I am pursuing wider and more far reaching propositions.  Sorry for the long post.

Zoser.


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#644    Oniomancer

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:45 PM

View Postzoser, on 06 January 2010 - 10:56 AM, said:


I don't wish to have a heated argument with you.  The difficulty always lies in subtle misunderstandings.

Let me try and explain one of them:

You claim that I am ignorant in terms of what people were capable of in those days.

Well to put the record straight, I am not in ignorant about it; in fact I am in intense awe about it.  It is mind boggling how people thousands of years ago created those diorite and granite constructions.

It perhaps loses something when compared with similar or superior work done a scant 2000 and less.

Quote

Somebody obvioulsy was capable of it because there it is for us all to see.  No one can argue with it!

The problem I have is that I am fully aware that the PP relics were not the creation of an indiginous people such as the Aymara, simply because nothing else has been found remotely resembling PP belonging to these people.
More to the point, nothing has been found on site not belonging to these peoples. IIRC, excavations have been made practically to the bedrock with no trace of artifacts consistent with another, more advanced culture.

Quote

They had no writing,
That we know of. They were at least somewhat culturally connected to the later Inca, and the Inca used a complex system of knotwork called Quipu in  place of conventional writing.  

Quote

and by all evidence they were not a technically minded people, but were more akin in habit, intellect and spirituality to the North American Indian.  There are I am sure subtle differences, but in essence you will find what I am saying to be correct.  This is where the drug argument stems from in the previous few posts.
Invalid comparison. The pottery and other artifacts associated with this "primitive" culture suggest a reasonable level of sophistication comparable to the other civilizations of the Andean highlands. One would also be hard pressed to find a single advanced culture anywhere that did not indulge in recreational stimulants of one kind or another.

Quote

The people that created PP were clearly different and had different aspirations in mind.  We do not know who they were, or where they came from, or indeed where they went.  However, by their deeds we can deduce certain things about them:

1) They must have had advanced planning skills.
2) They must have had advanced cutting and lifting skills.
3) They believed in a high degree of accuracy.  They were precise people, not sloppy, lazy or half hearted.
You claim to be a mathematician. Working in an abstract discipline like that, you of all people then should know that only a minimum of simple physical tools are required to perform accurate calculations and measurements in most applications. People have been making precise and accurately measured constructions for thousands of years before the invention of the modern transit, let alone the laser level.

Quote

4) They must have had a high religious or scientific purpose in mind, to have attempted such a sophisticated creation in such a remote and inhospitable place.  The resources and conditions were not favourable to such intense labour.
Or it just happened to be a good spot next to the big wet hole with all the yummy fish in it.

Conduciveness is rarely a factor where human hubris and greed are involved.


Quote

5) They had some knowledge of smelting, and engineering as evidenced from the clamp joints.

Ever seen a west African iron smelter? All it is is a fairly simple clay or mudbrick kiln not much bigger than the average home furnace, powered by a small pair of hand pumped goatskin bellows. Not exactly a Pittsburgh steel foundry.

Quote

Now here is a conjecture:

People in the past who have built cities and temples in high remote places were aiming at some esoteric and religious effort.  Anyone who has studied esoteric work knows that the higher one goes, the more rarified the air, and less polluted from human generation, both organic and artificial the atmosphere becomes.  (Atmospheres are very important in genuinely religious work, and some indication of this is given by the priests of Christian churches who incense before conducting services).  

Machu Picchu and Tibet are both good examples.  One could take this further and conjecture in terms of what could they have being trying to attract in such a remote and high location?  Think: Not many miles away can be found the Nazca Plains about which the speculation is well known.  There is no need to explain it here.

No doubt future generations will draw similar connections between the awe-inspiring ruins of Denver's mile-high stadium and the mysterious metal towers toppled about the slopes of nearby Aspen.

Quote

Also it is said that the Maya seemingly disapperared with no trace of decendants!
I'm sure this news will be of great interest to the Maya currently living in Mexico.

Edited by Oniomancer, 06 January 2010 - 03:56 PM.

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#645    zoser

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:20 PM

Mr Onion Man

You need to do a bit more reflection on the salient points of PP.

It was not constructed for idle fun.  It was purposeful.  The accuracy, scale, location, shapes, symbols used are all indicators as to what the people may have been like.

Saying of Zoser:

What is on the outside is also on the inside.  However, not everything that is on the inside is on the outside.

Ponder this and it will reveal much to you about the art of detection.


Edited by zoser, 06 January 2010 - 05:20 PM.

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