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Puma Punku


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#646    Abramelin

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:39 PM

An ''Onion" discussing a 'Loser'.

This should be great.


#647    pycomonkey

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:44 PM

The history channel is great! Never heard of Puma Punku, might do some research on it later. Thanks

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#648    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 02:07 AM

View Postzoser, on 06 January 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

Mr Onion Man

You need to do a bit more reflection on the salient points of PP.

It was not constructed for idle fun.  It was purposeful.  The accuracy, scale, location, shapes, symbols used are all indicators as to what the people may have been like.

Saying of Zoser:

What is on the outside is also on the inside.  However, not everything that is on the inside is on the outside.

Ponder this and it will reveal much to you about the art of detection.

Oh I have Zoey. I believe however I've also just given you an example of how easy it is to overlook the mundane while searching for "deeper" meanings. Consider that not every building complex in Tibet or the Andes was a lamasary or ritual site. (I marvel that no-one's tried to force a lama/llama connection yet)

I see the work that went into puma punku's construction and I see that there are economic and political aspects that aren't being taken into consideration. Those speak of power. Regardless of what you think of the inhabitants, Tiwanaku was after all the center of a known non-ancient empire.

Do you think it's a coincidence that a population center of that size sprang up right adjacent to  the largest natural food resource in the region, a region that also has vast mineral wealth? And where do the biggest churches usually get built elsewhere?

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#649    TheSearcher

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 06:25 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 07 January 2010 - 02:07 AM, said:

Oh I have Zoey. I believe however I've also just given you an example of how easy it is to overlook the mundane while searching for "deeper" meanings. Consider that not every building complex in Tibet or the Andes was a lamasary or ritual site. (I marvel that no-one's tried to force a lama/llama connection yet)

I see the work that went into puma punku's construction and I see that there are economic and political aspects that aren't being taken into consideration. Those speak of power. Regardless of what you think of the inhabitants, Tiwanaku was after all the center of a known non-ancient empire.

Do you think it's a coincidence that a population center of that size sprang up right adjacent to  the largest natural food resource in the region, a region that also has vast mineral wealth? And where do the biggest churches usually get built elsewhere?

I visited Tibet and I can tell you for sure that a many building build on the most impossible place, is either some person's house or a barn. Actually most buildings are NOT a lamasery. Zoser's  argument is a tad pointless, as even for religious buildings, there often is also a more practical side, when the location is chosen.

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#650    zoser

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:35 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 07 January 2010 - 02:07 AM, said:

Oh I have Zoey. I believe however I've also just given you an example of how easy it is to overlook the mundane while searching for "deeper" meanings. Consider that not every building complex in Tibet or the Andes was a lamasary or ritual site. (I marvel that no-one's tried to force a lama/llama connection yet)

I see the work that went into puma punku's construction and I see that there are economic and political aspects that aren't being taken into consideration. Those speak of power. Regardless of what you think of the inhabitants, Tiwanaku was after all the center of a known non-ancient empire.

Do you think it's a coincidence that a population center of that size sprang up right adjacent to  the largest natural food resource in the region, a region that also has vast mineral wealth? And where do the biggest churches usually get built elsewhere?


To look at PP in terms of power and economics is a non-starter.  There is no indication from looking at the nature of the carvings on the blocks at PP that it was constructed for these reasons.  Medieval castles for example have very high walls 20-30 feet high or more.  There just is no evidence that the purpose was to fortify for military reasons.  That again is looking at the past and superimposing 20th/21st Century thinking.  You have to think; why build in that particular region, when there are more fertile places, with more livestock and resources and material can be transported easier?  Well obviously they were trying to do something special without interference from the masses, where most likely degeneration had already started to set in.

It could well be that the site was originally close to a river, or major transportation point as is the case with most European cities that were once centres of empires.  There is some evidence that PP and Tiahuanaco were at one time close to a river or perhaps when Lake Titicaca extended further south.  Even if this theory is correct, I am  not convinced that this was the main reason for building PP, because I strongly suspect the site was constructed much earlier than 500AD and there would have been very few adjacent population centres to justify an economic or power centre.  La Paz for example was founded by the Spanish in the 16th Century.

It is far more likely as I have stated that the site was built as a religious centre although not religious as most people understand the word.

Saying of Zoser:

If you wish to understand Egypt, then you need to think like an Egyptian.


Edited by zoser, 07 January 2010 - 08:09 AM.

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#651    zoser

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 09:19 AM

Parts 3 and 4 of the Russian documentary are also worth watching.  Part 3 shows what looks like the quarry.





What does occur to me quite strongly looking at the footage, is the scale of the destruction is highly unlikely to be man made.  Some of the immense blocks are deep into the ground at strange angles.  The destruction must have happened during some immense upheaval either by a major earthquake or even some great flood.

Destruction by the Spanish can be discounted on the basis of the shear scale.  The Spanish were treasure hunters, not demolition fanatics.

My final conjecture for the time being, is this:  

Watching the footage gives the impression that the number of H shaped blocks to make a wall or standing structure is incomplete.  The footage shows many other types and shapes of blocks, perhaps 20-30 types in all. Yet it is not possible to count that many H shaped that constitute the modular/interlocking wall blocks.  That leaves only 3 possibilities to my mind:

1) The site was never completed.
2) The remainder of the blocks were removed and transported elsewhere.
3) The remainder of the site is buried underground and has been there since the upheaval.  

I favour option 3, on the basis that some of the huge blocks are partially buried.



Edited by zoser, 07 January 2010 - 09:38 AM.

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#652    Mortalscan

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 05:28 PM

View Postzoser, on 07 January 2010 - 09:19 AM, said:

Parts 3 and 4 of the Russian documentary are also worth watching.  Part 3 shows what looks like the quarry.





What does occur to me quite strongly looking at the footage, is the scale of the destruction is highly unlikely to be man made.  Some of the immense blocks are deep into the ground at strange angles.  The destruction must have happened during some immense upheaval either by a major earthquake or even some great flood.

Destruction by the Spanish can be discounted on the basis of the shear scale.  The Spanish were treasure hunters, not demolition fanatics.

My final conjecture for the time being, is this:  

Watching the footage gives the impression that the number of H shaped blocks to make a wall or standing structure is incomplete.  The footage shows many other types and shapes of blocks, perhaps 20-30 types in all. Yet it is not possible to count that many H shaped that constitute the modular/interlocking wall blocks.  That leaves only 3 possibilities to my mind:

1) The site was never completed.
2) The remainder of the blocks were removed and transported elsewhere.
3) The remainder of the site is buried underground and has been there since the upheaval.  

I favour option 3, on the basis that some of the huge blocks are partially buried.



great videos thank you for sharing ...

here is another one .. pay close attention to the detail ( not the destruction or rocks everywhere ) but the detail cutting ...Man just blows my mind ..and look at the very last part of it ...crazy to think these people had this knowledge...

I heard , floods, earthquakes  but how about meteor hit ? is that even on the table ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWM9pUX-ZhA&feature=related


#653    Abramelin

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:12 PM

View Postzoser, on 07 January 2010 - 09:19 AM, said:

Parts 3 and 4 of the Russian documentary are also worth watching.  Part 3 shows what looks like the quarry.





What does occur to me quite strongly looking at the footage, is the scale of the destruction is highly unlikely to be man made.  Some of the immense blocks are deep into the ground at strange angles.  The destruction must have happened during some immense upheaval either by a major earthquake or even some great flood.

Destruction by the Spanish can be discounted on the basis of the shear scale.  The Spanish were treasure hunters, not demolition fanatics.

My final conjecture for the time being, is this:  

Watching the footage gives the impression that the number of H shaped blocks to make a wall or standing structure is incomplete.  The footage shows many other types and shapes of blocks, perhaps 20-30 types in all. Yet it is not possible to count that many H shaped that constitute the modular/interlocking wall blocks.  That leaves only 3 possibilities to my mind:

1) The site was never completed.
2) The remainder of the blocks were removed and transported elsewhere.
3) The remainder of the site is buried underground and has been there since the upheaval.  

I favour option 3, on the basis that some of the huge blocks are partially buried.




Somehow - and I dont know why  -  you seem to love to forget that the people living there now took those stones to build there houses. Whatever is left, it's nothing but ruble.

The whole place has been distorted through the millennia.

And why do you love to use a font, different to what anyone else uses here?

Are you just trying top get attention to your ideas by using a different font????


#654    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:43 PM

View Postzoser, on 07 January 2010 - 07:35 AM, said:

To look at PP in terms of power and economics is a non-starter.  There is no indication from looking at the nature of the carvings on the blocks at PP that it was constructed for these reasons.  Medieval castles for example have very high walls 20-30 feet high or more.  There just is no evidence that the purpose was to fortify for military reasons.  That again is looking at the past and superimposing 20th/21st Century thinking.  You have to think; why build in that particular region, when there are more fertile places, with more livestock and resources and material can be transported easier?  Well obviously they were trying to do something special without interference from the masses, where most likely degeneration had already started to set in.

It could well be that the site was originally close to a river, or major transportation point as is the case with most European cities that were once centres of empires.  There is some evidence that PP and Tiahuanaco were at one time close to a river or perhaps when Lake Titicaca extended further south.  Even if this theory is correct, I am  not convinced that this was the main reason for building PP, because I strongly suspect the site was constructed much earlier than 500AD and there would have been very few adjacent population centres to justify an economic or power centre.  La Paz for example was founded by the Spanish in the 16th Century.

It is far more likely as I have stated that the site was built as a religious centre although not religious as most people understand the word.

(sigh) Once again you're looking right past the problem. The greater Tiwanaku complex of which puma punku is only one part isn't just a series of temples. It's an entire city, and cities need support infrastructures. People, housing, food, goods and material, and the means to safeguard them, and that all requires an economic base and administrative organizations. Even the great churches of Europe weren't build with church money alone or free labor and supplies from eager devotees. They were heavily subsidized by the nobility, and even slave laborers need to eat.

There is at least one building in Tiwanaku proper that could've served as a defensive citadel and that's all they needed. Just because Notre Dame is a cathedral doesn't mean that the Bastille, the Louvre and the Bibliotheque Nationale were too, and vice versa.

Statements about the current productivity and isolation of the region are meaningless as you are rather pointedly ignoring the facts that:

-Even today the region is the center of a sizable fishing industry.

-The Region is known to've been more productive in the past from the presence of the remains of former raised-bed plantings.

-The site was still occupied as the center of the aforementioned "primitive" empire of established late vintage.

People live where they can.

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Saying of Zoser:

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Confucious say: Egyptians not immune from law of supply and demand.

"Apparently the Lemurians drank Schlitz." - Intrepid "Real People" reporter on finding a mysterious artifact in the depths of Mount Shasta.

#655    zoser

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:52 PM

Abe

Don't let the font bother you.  I have reasons, but not to go into them now.

Not convinced about local indians stealing granite and diorite blocks to build houses.  They were too big and heavy.  Unless you mean the tiny ones.  Also, no one has reported it.  For example everyone knows what happened to the Tura Limestone casing blocks on the Great Pyramid and when it was removed.

I agree with Mortalscan that something fantastic and unprecedented happened at PP.  I disagree also with the Onion Man and I do not even see the two sites (Puma Punka and Tiahuanaco) even though they are a few hundred metres apart as being related.

As I previously mentioned about the destruction; looking carefully at the videos, something cataclysmic hit PP.  I agree that the Russians are a bit dramatic and classic and love the idea of nuclear bombs!  Nonetheless, it was major, and whatever it was it did not affect Tiahuanaco the same way.

I strongly suspect that Tiahuanaco therefore is much later than PP.  This theory also needs exploring.  I take your point Mr Onion Man (or was it Abe) when you said that Posnansky rebuilt part of Tiahuanaco.  Even so, it could not have compared to the destruction at PP.


Posted Image


#656    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:54 PM

Oh, and one more thing:

View Postzoser, on 04 January 2010 - 08:45 AM, said:

I have to challenge you on that one Mr Searcher.

How can they date a collection of precision cut granite and diorite and tie it to a bunch of organic remains in the first place?

It's easy when other organic material of similar date is found under the base platform of said precision-cut stones.

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#657    zoser

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 08:35 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 07 January 2010 - 07:54 PM, said:

Oh, and one more thing:


It's easy when other organic material of similar date is found under the base platform of said precision-cut stones.


Thanks for the info .  I see the principle, however, for a specific site it must depend if any of the blocks are in their orignal position.  In the case of PP because of the cataclysmic event, that is a moot question I guess.

Any thoughts?


Posted Image


#658    Oniomancer

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 04:05 AM

View Postzoser, on 07 January 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:


Thanks for the info .  I see the principle, however, for a specific site it must depend if any of the blocks are in their orignal position.  In the case of PP because of the cataclysmic event, that is a moot question I guess.

Any thoughts?


From Wiki:

Quote

These estimates for the age of the Pumapunku complex is directly refuted by a radiocarbon date of 1510+/-25 BP obtained from organic material, sample OS-17860, collected from the clay fill that forms the main platform of the Pumapunku complex and underlies the stonework and on which Posnansky's archaeoastronomical dating is based.[1]

Source citation:

Quote

1. # ^ a b c d e Vranich, A., 1999, Interpreting the Meaning of Ritual Spaces: The Temple Complex of Pumapunku, Tiwanaku, Bolivia. Doctoral Dissertation, The University of Pennsylvania. 1


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#659    TheSearcher

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 06:02 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 07 January 2010 - 07:54 PM, said:

Oh, and one more thing:


It's easy when other organic material of similar date is found under the base platform of said precision-cut stones.

Beat me to it, took me a bit longer to find the info this time

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#660    Sthenno

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 06:08 AM

For some reason this story reminds me of Coral Castle http://en.wikipedia....ts_construction
Maybe there really are some secret laws of weight and leverage that allow people who master them to easily manipulate huge lumps of stone.
Most likely not, but who knows.





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