Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Frisland not mythical but submarine?


  • Please log in to reply
148 replies to this topic

#16    Qoais

Qoais

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,268 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2007
  • Gender:Female

Posted 10 September 2009 - 03:46 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 09 September 2009 - 05:51 PM, said:

Since people really only had the sun and stars to judge position by, islands and coastlines were confused all the time. People thought they were in one place and actually were hundreds of miles away. Clouds along probably caused enough confusion to put some real islands into unreal positions. Not to mention multiple discoverys by different explorers. Or, failed explorers who made stuff up.

Mariners also had the Celtic Cross, which it seems, was in existance even before the pyramids, and was likely used to help build the pyramids.

http://www.world-mys...s.com/sar_5.htm

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#17    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,070 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 10 September 2009 - 09:00 AM

View PostRiaan, on 09 September 2009 - 08:59 PM, said:

Mapping of Hudson Bay:

"The bay is named for Henry Hudson, who, in 1610, on board the aptly named Discovery, was seeking a Northwest Passage to Asia. The east coast of Hudson Bay proper was mapped two years later, the south coast was traced in 1631, and the explorer Luke Foxe lent his name to Foxe Channel in the same year. The west coast was not mapped until the early 1820s, and the first bathymetric measurements of the area were made by Canadians during 192931. Air reconnaissance superseded naval researches from the second half of the 20th century."

http://www.britannic...4697/Hudson-Bay


Yes, that is the official and documented discovery of the Hudson Bay as we all know.

Of course the native Amerians knew of Hudson Bay long before Hudson or the French re-discovered it, and no doubt the French fur traders must have heard of a large body of water long before Hudson officially explored it :

Quote

For many years after Cartier's voyages, the disturbed state of Europe prevented further exploration of the seaboard of north-eastern America ; and when exploration was resumed, it was by the English, who attempted to discover a "north-west passage" by way of Hudson strait and Hudson bay . From early in the sixteenth century there had been rumours of a sea lying to the north of Labrador . The entrance to such a sea is clearly marked on a Portuguese map of 1570. In 1576 Martin Frobisher discovered the strait that bears his name; and in 1585 John Davis  discovered Davis strait . It was not until 1602, however, that Hudson strait was discovered by George Weymouth, who penetrated one hundred leagues into the strait; and it was not until 1610 that Henry Hudson sailed through Hudson strait into Hudson bay , and explored part of that vast inland sea.

http://faculty.maria...ionofCanada.htm







#18    Riaan

Riaan

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 503 posts
  • Joined:04 Jul 2009
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:33 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 September 2009 - 09:00 AM, said:

Yes, that is the official and documented discovery of the Hudson Bay as we all know.

Of course the native Amerians knew of Hudson Bay long before Hudson or the French re-discovered it, and no doubt the French fur traders must have heard of a large body of water long before Hudson officially explored it :


Having known about Hudson Bay before its discovery is one thing, but being in possession of a detailed map of the area beforehand is quite something else. Who would have mapped it in such detail?

Author of Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013

Details here.

#19    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,070 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 September 2009 - 01:17 AM

The maps you showed were wrong.


#20    Qoais

Qoais

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,268 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2007
  • Gender:Female

Posted 11 September 2009 - 04:27 AM

I think the "New World" was known about for a long time before any maps were made of it.  Or possibly there WERE maps, but they were kept secret except for a privileged few.  This may sound off the wall, but remember King Arthur and Merlin?  And Avalon?  Well Merlin was supposedly buried in Avalon but no one knew where that was.  Well, for all intents and purposes, it seems Avalon was in Massachusetts.  Now I think the story of Arthur was around 5 or 6 AD.  Perhaps the Templars had the secret and knew where to take him when he figured his time was almost up.  One of my favorite writers, Graham Phillips, who chases down mysteries, wrote a book called Merlin and the Discovery of Avalon in the New World.  Although he can't say for absolute positive, that the grave marker he found was Merlin's, it a pretty good chance that it is.  In the book, he has to figure out who King Arthur really was, in order to figure out who Merlin really was.  There was no King Arthur of England, but it seems there was a great warrior who people looked up to for his military skills called Artur meaning The Bear - and the rulers of the lands decided to get together and have this dude organize them all into a proper fighting force.  Anyway, the book's a great read and if Phillips is right, then the Templars (or someone) has known of the New World for a long time.

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#21    TheSearcher

TheSearcher

    Coffee expert extraordinair

  • Member
  • 3,845 posts
  • Joined:16 Jun 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 11 September 2009 - 05:52 AM

View PostQoais, on 11 September 2009 - 04:27 AM, said:

I think the "New World" was known about for a long time before any maps were made of it.  Or possibly there WERE maps, but they were kept secret except for a privileged few.  This may sound off the wall, but remember King Arthur and Merlin?  And Avalon?  Well Merlin was supposedly buried in Avalon but no one knew where that was.  Well, for all intents and purposes, it seems Avalon was in Massachusetts.  Now I think the story of Arthur was around 5 or 6 AD.  Perhaps the Templars had the secret and knew where to take him when he figured his time was almost up.  One of my favorite writers, Graham Phillips, who chases down mysteries, wrote a book called Merlin and the Discovery of Avalon in the New World.  Although he can't say for absolute positive, that the grave marker he found was Merlin's, it a pretty good chance that it is.  In the book, he has to figure out who King Arthur really was, in order to figure out who Merlin really was.  There was no King Arthur of England, but it seems there was a great warrior who people looked up to for his military skills called Artur meaning The Bear - and the rulers of the lands decided to get together and have this dude organize them all into a proper fighting force.  Anyway, the book's a great read and if Phillips is right, then the Templars (or someone) has known of the New World for a long time.

ARTHUR : The story of Arthur and the grail having been discussed at length in other threads, which Arthur would you be talking about? The details of Arthur's story are mainly composed of folklore and literary invention and his historical existence is debated by modern historians.
The sparse historical background of Arthur is gleaned from various sources, like the Annales Cambriae, the Historia Brittonum, and the writings of Gildas. But Arthur's name also occurs in early poetic sources such as Y Gododdin.

The legendary Arthur developed largely through the popularity of Geoffrey of Monmouth's imaginative 12th-century Historia Regum Britanniae. However, some Welsh and Breton tales and poems relating the story of Arthur date from earlier than this work. Arthur appears either as a great warrior defending Britain from human and supernatural enemies or as a magical figure of folklore, sometimes associated with the Welsh Otherworld, Annwn. How much of Geoffrey's Historia was adapted from such earlier sources, rather than invented by himself, is unsure.

MERLIN : Now Merlin is a legendary figure best known as the wizard featured in the Arthurian legend. The standard depiction of the character first appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae and is based on an amalgamation of previous historical and legendary figures. Geoffrey combined existing stories of Myrddin Wyllt (Merlinus Caledonensis), a North British madman with no connection to King Arthur, with tales of the Romano-British war leader Ambrosius Aurelianus to form the composite figure he called Merlin Ambrosius (Welsh: Myrddin Emrys).

Merlin's traditional biography casts him as born of mortal woman, sired by an incubus, the non-human wellspring from whom he inherits his supernatural powers and abilities.Merlin matures to an ascendant sagehood and engineers the birth of Arthur through magic and intrigue.

TEMPLARS : The order was officially created in 1119, but had come from an idea in 1099, during the first crusade. IT was created by two veterans of the First Crusade, the French knight Hugues de Payens and his relative Godfrey de Saint-Omer.
The order was disbanded or rather destroyed, by Phillipe Le Bel, king of France, when started arresting all templars on October 13, 1307.

I can only agree on one thing you say here. The "New World" might have been known about for a lot longer than we realise, and just have been a secret of this or this family / society / land / order / to be determined. There might or might not have been maps, this is unclear at best.

You say, Arthur existed around 5 or 6 AD, this might or might not be correct, as we are not sure Arthur existed, or who Monmouth based his character on. But even if we accept the Arthur idea, it would still clash with the templars having spirited him away to Avalon / America when his time was up. There is at least 300 years between the existance of the two.

Furthermore since either character, Arthur or Merlin are a literary construct, you can't really find their graves.

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
Publilius Syrus.

So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#22    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,266 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 11 September 2009 - 06:15 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 11 September 2009 - 05:52 AM, said:

ARTHUR : The story of Arthur and the grail having been discussed at length in other threads, which Arthur would you be talking about? The details of Arthur's story are mainly composed of folklore and literary invention and his historical existence is debated by modern historians.
The sparse historical background of Arthur is gleaned from various sources, like the Annales Cambriae, the Historia Brittonum, and the writings of Gildas. But Arthur's name also occurs in early poetic sources such as Y Gododdin.

The legendary Arthur developed largely through the popularity of Geoffrey of Monmouth's imaginative 12th-century Historia Regum Britanniae. However, some Welsh and Breton tales and poems relating the story of Arthur date from earlier than this work. Arthur appears either as a great warrior defending Britain from human and supernatural enemies or as a magical figure of folklore, sometimes associated with the Welsh Otherworld, Annwn. How much of Geoffrey's Historia was adapted from such earlier sources, rather than invented by himself, is unsure.

MERLIN : Now Merlin is a legendary figure best known as the wizard featured in the Arthurian legend. The standard depiction of the character first appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae and is based on an amalgamation of previous historical and legendary figures. Geoffrey combined existing stories of Myrddin Wyllt (Merlinus Caledonensis), a North British madman with no connection to King Arthur, with tales of the Romano-British war leader Ambrosius Aurelianus to form the composite figure he called Merlin Ambrosius (Welsh: Myrddin Emrys).

Merlin's traditional biography casts him as born of mortal woman, sired by an incubus, the non-human wellspring from whom he inherits his supernatural powers and abilities.Merlin matures to an ascendant sagehood and engineers the birth of Arthur through magic and intrigue.

TEMPLARS : The order was officially created in 1119, but had come from an idea in 1099, during the first crusade. IT was created by two veterans of the First Crusade, the French knight Hugues de Payens and his relative Godfrey de Saint-Omer.
The order was disbanded or rather destroyed, by Phillipe Le Bel, king of France, when started arresting all templars on October 13, 1307.

I can only agree on one thing you say here. The "New World" might have been known about for a lot longer than we realise, and just have been a secret of this or this family / society / land / order / to be determined. There might or might not have been maps, this is unclear at best.

You say, Arthur existed around 5 or 6 AD, this might or might not be correct, as we are not sure Arthur existed, or who Monmouth based his character on. But even if we accept the Arthur idea, it would still clash with the templars having spirited him away to Avalon / America when his time was up. There is at least 300 years between the existance of the two.

Furthermore since either character, Arthur or Merlin are a literary construct, you can't really find their graves.

And to further add to this, one of the best candidates for at least part of the legends of Arthur, if both figures were not one and the same, would be that of Riothamus, whose last known position was in the vicinity of Aballon/Avallon, France. So no need to suggest Avallon/Avalon was in North America, IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#23    TheSearcher

TheSearcher

    Coffee expert extraordinair

  • Member
  • 3,845 posts
  • Joined:16 Jun 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 11 September 2009 - 06:34 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 September 2009 - 06:15 AM, said:

And to further add to this, one of the best candidates for at least part of the legends of Arthur, if both figures were not one and the same, would be that of Riothamus, whose last known position was in the vicinity of Aballon/Avallon, France. So no need to suggest Avallon/Avalon was in North America, IMO.

cormac

Even then the link between Templars and Arthur is non existant as such.

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
Publilius Syrus.

So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#24    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,266 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 11 September 2009 - 12:33 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 11 September 2009 - 06:34 AM, said:

Even then the link between Templars and Arthur is non existant as such.

Right! Extremely anachronistic, to say the least.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#25    Qoais

Qoais

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,268 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2007
  • Gender:Female

Posted 11 September 2009 - 03:55 PM

Aren't you supposed to put a link when you copy stuff Searcher?

Quote

King Arthur is a legendary British leader who, according to medieval histories and romances, led the defence of Britain against the Saxon invaders in the early 6th century. The details of Arthur's story are mainly composed of folklore and literary invention, and his historical existence is debated and disputed by modern historians.[2] The sparse historical background of Arthur is gleaned from various sources, including the Annales Cambriae, the Historia Brittonum, and the writings of Gildas. Arthur's name also occurs in early poetic sources such as Y Gododdin.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/King_Arthur

I didn't mean the Templars themselves necessarily, but SOMEONE.  

The name Merlin comes from the Welsh name Myrddin, and Merlin could have been a historical figure upon whom later, fanciful legends were based or a wise court advisor who was later credited with magical powers.  The name Myrddin was a title, meaning "the Eagle" or "voice of the Eagle" - the Eagle being a bird that was associated with foresight in ancient British tradition. (second sight)

Quoting from Graham Phillips' book:

The story of King Arthur, as we now know it, comes from the work of the English writer Thomas Malory, who wrote in the mid-1400's.  This is the Arthur who becomes king by drawing the sword from the stone, founds the fabulous city of Camelot and its Knights of the Round Table, and rules Britain with his beautiful queen Guinevere.  This story, in turn, had been taken from older, medieval tales known as the Arthurian romances that wre written in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, in which King Arthur and his knights fight dragons, rescue damsels in distress, and search for the Holy Grail.  these were clearly romantic inventions but there was much earlier evidence that this King Arthur figure was based on a real warrior who had lived centuries before.

According to the Arthurian romances, Arthur ruled Britain around 500 AD and the work of a ninth-century British monk named Nennius records a warrior called Arthur fighting in Britain at that time.  In Nennius's surviving work, in the British Library in London, Arthur is recorded as one of the last native British leaders to make a successful stand against Anglo-Saxons, who invaded the country from their homeland in Denmark and northern Germany in the late fifth and early sixth centuries AD.  This was during the British Dark Ages: an era of feuding and warfare that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire in the fifth century and lasted for some four hundred years, until the Saxon king Athelstan became ruler of all of England in 927.  

Unfortuneately, Nennius says little about Arthur, nor does he reveal where he originated, but he does list twelve of his battles, and the last of them, the battle of Badon, is datable from a separate historical source: the work of another British monk, named Gildas, who wrote within living memory of the event.  In his On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain, dating from the mid-sixth century, Gildas makes reference to the battle of Badon occurring around 500 AD.  There does, therefore, appear to have been a historical British leader named Arthur who lived at the time the king Arthur of the Arthurian romances is said to have lived.

However, if Arthur lived in the late fifth or early sixth century as Nennius records, he would not have been a king in shining armor, living in a huge Gothic castle, but instead a Dark Age warlord with Roman-style armor, and his fortifications would have been wooden stockades.  The reason that Arthur is now portrayed as a medieval-style king of many centuries later is that writers of the Middle Ages (the period from Athelstan in the ninth century until the Renaissance in the fifteenth century) tended to set ancient stories, such as the legneds of Greece and Rome, in their own historical context - a context of knighthood and chivalry.

Edited by Qoais, 11 September 2009 - 03:56 PM.

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#26    Qoais

Qoais

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,268 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2007
  • Gender:Female

Posted 11 September 2009 - 04:29 PM

Now about the island of Avalon:

Britain is a divided country with two chief warlords.  The Pendragons and the Amlawdds.  Merlin supposedly arranges for the Pendragon heir to mate with the Amlawdd heir and the resultant son is raised by Merlin until he is old enough to become king and join the "two lands".  

Quoting from Graham Phillips' book Merlin and the Discovery of Avalon in the New World:

Quote

In the first year of his reign, Arthur gathers knights from around his kingdom to keep the peace, and Merlin makes a round conference table as a symbol of equality so that no man can sit at its head.  The magician then continues to advise Arthur on the running of his prosperous kingdom until barbarians from across the sea begin to raid and pillage the land.  To defeat the barbarians, Merlin gives Arthur a second, far more important sword than the one he drew from the stone - one with the power to render it's wielder invincible in battle.  This is Excalibur, the magical sword that Merlin has acquired from a faraway land, made by a mysterious water nymph called the Lady of the Lake.  With the sword, Arthur triumphs and peace returns, and Merlin sets sail for a mystical and secret island called Avalon.  Here he remains for many years, living alone except for nine mysterious maidens.

Now it seems there were two Merlins in the histories with the ability to foresee the future.  These two were later confused with each other.  This being because as was said earlier, Merlin is a title, not a name.  The one Merlin, who fought in the battle of Arfderydd and seemed to have gone a bit mental afterwards, was named Lailoken, but with the title Merlin doe to having the "voice of the Eagle" or second sight as in prohetic tellings of the future.  But he lived a century after the time of Arthur.

Quote

The second is a Merlin talked about in a work entitled The Great Prophecy of Britain, dating from around 930.  It's a war poem preserved in a manuscript cataloged as MS Peniarth 2 in the National Library of Wales in the town of aberystwyth.  The poem concerns a period some five centuries eaalier, around the year 450, when the Anglo-Saxons first began arriving, and includes a British king named Vortigern who ruled shortly before the time of Arthur's reign.  

It's possible the two were confused as one in the Arthurian romances, which began with the works of a Welsh bishop named Geoffry of Monmouth in the mid-1100's.  In 1135, Geoffrey wrote a book entitled The History of the Kings of Britain, in which the story of King Arthur and his adviser Merlin was first popularized.  In this book, Merliln seems to be the same character as the Myrddin in The Great Prophecy of Britain, as it includes an episode in which Merlin as a young man comes face-to-face with the British king Vortigern (as he does in the poem).  In Geoffrey's History, Merlin makes his first appearance when he is captured as a boy by Vortigern, who intends to use him as a sacrifice. (This Merlin also goes by another name, Ambrose, the significance of which we will explore in greater depth a bit later in this book).


An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#27    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,070 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 September 2009 - 05:33 PM

Jesus, could you all please get back on topic?


#28    Qoais

Qoais

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,268 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2007
  • Gender:Female

Posted 11 September 2009 - 05:42 PM

I'm working up to it.  One needs a bit of background to explain stuff to the naysayers and make them think a bit instead of just always making like they know everything.

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#29    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,070 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 September 2009 - 05:46 PM

Screw them.

I am interested in this topic, I am not interested in Avalon or Arthur bs.

You people shoukd be glad I am not administrator here.


#30    danydandan

danydandan

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 953 posts
  • Joined:04 Jan 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kildare Ireland

  • Deus iudex est meus

    super omnes familia

Posted 11 September 2009 - 06:14 PM

Martin Frobisher, in his important exploration of 1576, reported "sight of a high and rugged land." What he had sighted was the coast of Greenland, but as he was following Mercator's map of the world, he though he had seen Frisland (which he claimed for England in the name of Queen Elizabeth). When he then got to Baffin Island, he thought he was at Greenland, and so the reports of all his explorations around Baffin Island were ascribed to Greenland. Thus it was that for many years "Frobishers Strait" (which interestingly is actually a bay) was put at the southern tip of Greenland rather than on Baffin Island. Frisland, which was accepted by most cartographers during the following century, appeared as late as the eighteenth century on a map by T.C. Lotter!

http://www.philaprin...p.com/zeno.html

"And Shepherds we shall be For thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand Our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands.So we shall flow a river forth to Thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti."




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users