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Stockholm Syndrome and Religion


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#16    Sherapy

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:28 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 18 September 2009 - 05:15 PM, said:

Except, Sheri, you're missing what specfic criteria the victim must meet to be considered a sufferer of Stockholms. The criteria is very specific.

I don't see that from a medical/psychological standard that the two are even related (and I think most good psychologists would agree with me). Unless it's in the case of someone like Ms. Smart who was abducted, tortured and raped, then forced to live the religious lifestye of her captor. But that doesn't even have much to do with religion, that had more to do with a dude that was a criminal, a paedofile and, a psychopath.

miss wells, I don't dispute this , i am adding that there are those being taken against the will all the time its called religion and the  main feature is adhering to a totalitarian ideology ..how is it  much different than SS ...


I defintely see a connection....


#17    Rosewin

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:30 PM

View PostS♥ ♥ ♥, on 18 September 2009 - 05:28 PM, said:

there are those being taken against the will all the time its called religion and the  main feature is adhering to a totalitarian ideology

I respect that this is your view but it is really out of step with how most people think about religion even those who do not care for it and never go to church, temple, or anything else having to do with any religion.

What I find similar between views like yours and those of the religious extremist is that they need an 'enemy' and they vilify that enemy.

Edited by Rosewin, 18 September 2009 - 05:32 PM.


#18    MissMelsWell

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:35 PM

View PostS♥ ♥ ♥, on 18 September 2009 - 05:28 PM, said:

miss wells, I don't dispute this , i am adding that there are those being taken against the will all the time its called religion and the  main feature is adhering to a totalitarian ideology ..how is it  much different than SS ...


I defintely see a connection....


I had actually added this to my previous post to address your comment...

Quote

Children who are born into and raised under a specific faith don't have Stockholms either. They were raised in a lifestyle not abducted and tortured by an invisible being that you and the OP don't believe in. I mean come on. Do kids who were raised in a specific faith they grow to realize they don't believe in have psychological trouble? Yes, I think that can happen. But it's not Stockholms. It's perhaps depression, or PTSS, or self-esteem issues, issues of abandonment or a whole host of other problems. Stockholms doesn't apply.

Still not Stockholms. I mean, you say you have a background in psychology, you should know that Stockholms is a very very specific syndrome and it's criteria really shouldn't be thrown around so lightly. Doing so really marginalizes and randomizes the diagnosis and more importantly the treatment of a true Stockholms victim. That would be horrible.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 18 September 2009 - 05:40 PM.

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#19    FurthurBB

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:35 PM

View PostRosewin, on 18 September 2009 - 05:12 PM, said:

lol I can see why you found it funny. In either case the 'understanding' you might assume is universal is actually merely one view among many. Really some of the people posting here would have you believe God does not exist, but somehow God still is responsible for so much harm against non-believers, but that is not all, order now and God will also harm believers too!

This seems like a reading comprehension problem or a case of only seeing only what you want to see.  A person who does not believe in gods, does not believe any god is responsible for anything at all.


#20    FurthurBB

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:37 PM

View PostRosewin, on 18 September 2009 - 05:25 PM, said:

Cult members and members of general religions are far from being one and the same. Of course there is a connection as well between Christianity and Stockholm Syndrome...if God was an 'actual person' who would kidnapped you or took you hostage and then and only then you began to sympathize with God but not before.

I do not believe there is much difference between conventional religion, especially christianity and cults.

Edited by FurthurBB, 18 September 2009 - 05:37 PM.


#21    The Silver Thong

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:44 PM

View PostRosewin, on 18 September 2009 - 05:12 PM, said:

lol I can see why you found it funny. In either case the 'understanding' you might assume is universal is actually merely one view among many. Really some of the people posting here would have you believe God does not exist, but somehow God still is responsible for so much harm against non-believers, but that is not all, order now and God will also harm believers too!

However I think if you were to ask most non believers you would find the vast majority were not always non believers ;)

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#22    Sherapy

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 07:17 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 18 September 2009 - 05:35 PM, said:

I had actually added this to my previous post to address your comment...



Still not Stockholms. I mean, you say you have a background in psychology, you should know that Stockholms is a very very specific syndrome and it's criteria really shouldn't be thrown around so lightly. Doing so really marginalizes and randomizes the diagnosis and more importantly the treatment of a true Stockholms victim. That would be horrible.

Miss wells, Dr. Robert Lifton is the leading expert in cults:(Robert Jay Lifton (born May 16, 1926) is an American psychiatrist and author, chiefly known for his studies of the psychological causes and effects of war and political violence and for his theory of thought reform. He was an early proponent of the techniques of psychohistory.

In 2006, Lifton appeared in a documentary on cults on the History Channel: "Decoding the Past", along with fellow psychiatrist Peter A. Olsson[1].

His father was a physicist.)

http://en.wikipedia....bert_Jay_Lifton

   the question is can religion be analogized to  the stockholm syndrome and the answer is yes it can... the dynamics  that  create cult like devotion and alter ones personality over time to cope is by definition the stockholm syndrome... therefore it is reasonable to conclude  that  there is a commonalitybetween the two....

this is a wonderful thread because  so many have no idea  on why people  end up in cults or religions that are harmful or  abusive relationships  and stay  many think they  want this just as you do, in error.........

I am just giving quality data  for  consideration, how you decide is up to you.......of course...


I am not seeking to  vilify anything I am seeking to  shed light on a issue that  because of separation of church and state has slipped under the radar  .....

therefore until  now has gotten   a free pass on accountability and visibility and critical assessment......





A group or movement exhibiting great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethical manipulative or coercive techniques or persuasion and control to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of the members,their families, or the community.   Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how she or he is being changed a step at a time.

Like the proverbial frog in the kettle, prospective recruits for a cult are unaware of the dynamics involved in their recruitment. Whether it is a religious group that employs "bible studies," or a "self esteem" course offered by an organization, the goal is to entice individuals to commit to more and more group activities, while keeping them unaware of increasing entrenchment.

Control the person's social and/or physical environment; especially the person's time.

Contact with the group via phone calls and "unexpected meetings" continues to influence prospective members, until such a time that the recruits spend large amounts of time with the group. The more time individuals spend in cult-related activities, the more distant they become from their pre-cult selves.

Systematically create a sense of powerlessness in the person.

Recruits eventually spend most of their time and energy in the group, and become very dependent on it. The group becomes the norm for what is considered true, just, or desirable. Internalization of group behavior and language further reduces the ability for reality testing and makes it very difficult to leave.

Manipulate a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in such a way as to inhibit behavior that reflects the person's former social identity.

Through a system of reinforcement, individuals are further distanced from their pasts. What is remembered of the past is radically reinterpreted. Life outside the group becomes inconceivable.

Manipulate a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in order to promote learning the group's ideology or belief system and group-approved behaviors.

"Happiness"in a toxic group is through performance: comply and you will be rewarded; disobey, and you will suffer penalties. Should there be any discrepancies between what is promised and what is achieved, the individual is at fault; the group/organization/leader are above reproach.

Put forth a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure that permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by leader ship approval or executive order.

Cults typically demonstrate a pyramid-shaped structure. All devotees are accountable to the leadership; the leadership is accountable to no one.

The above dynamics describe an environment that is both abusive and difficult to leave. The internal dissonance produced by the cult is itself alleviated by the cult, and this cycle of dependency can last for many years given the right environment. Those who have never experienced the thought-reforming environment of a cult often find it difficult to understand how an individual can "choose" to join and stay in such a group. This perspective holds that it is perfectly permissible to believe that an individual seeks out, joins, and remains in a destructive group by their own volition.

This outsider's perspective is not unlike the responses given to victims of domestic violence where the questions are asked, "Why does she stay?Why doesn't she just leave?"




A significant body of literature suggests that victims of prolonged emotional and psychological coercion, such as outlined above, undergo a personality transformation to cope with the self-fragmentation (Herman,1992; Cushman, 1986; Boulette & Anderson, 1985). West and Martin(1994) use the term "pseudo-identity" to describe this effect. Other terms, such as "identification with the aggressor" and "Stockholm syndrome" have been used to represent that radical transformation of personality in the face of overwhelming trauma.  In the domestic violence literature the "battered woman syndrome" has been put forth as a regularly recognizable set of symptoms that are produced by a violent, controlling environment (Walker, 1993).

Is a domestic violence milieu a cult? If one defines a cult in behavioral terms, as I have, the answer is "yes," and it is appropriate to call battered relationships "cultic relationships." Moreover, other"non domestic" relationships may be cultic in their dynamics, e.g.,psychotherapy cults (Singer, Langone, & Temerlin, 1991).

http://www.icsahome....a+Cultic+System

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥, 18 September 2009 - 07:32 PM.


#23    MissMelsWell

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 07:52 PM

No, hahaha. You're very much twisting this up... trying to meld regular run of the mill dry toast versions of religion with dangerous cult-like behavior. Even your own post shows they are two VERY differnt things. Something I've pointed out so many times over the years here on UM.

the OP is NOT talking about dangerous cult groups, but regular religion (specifically christian)... The criteria you have given in your post is the criteria used to help authorities identify what is termed as a "cult" and which groups may need a more watchful eye on them. It's good criteria, excellent in fact. You'll note that your garden variety Presbyterian or Catholic church doesn't meet any of it.

I'm sorry, Blind_Messiah isn't talking about extremist cult groups, he appears to be talking about your garden variety Baptists and Presbyterians etc... They don't meet the requisites for Cults or Stockholms.

Is it possible that some cult groups could have members that come out with a variant of Stockholms? Probably, but not in the classic sense. Do Manson's followers have a type of Stockholms? Maybe, but umm... they're nothing like your next door neighbor who says his bedtime prayers and toodles off the church on Sunday and attends the Wednesday bake-sale at church. Personally I think Manson had the ability to recognize and attract other psychopaths to him. I'm not entirely convinced they were brainwashed by him.

I don't think brainwashing and Stockholms are exactly the same thing either. Stockholms is more a psychological self-defense, brainwashing really isn't.

I just think it's very dangerous when we start to muddy the waters of real and very important psychological disorders and start applying them to the mundane. VERY dangerous. IN the long run, it prevents real sufferers from receiving the help they need, and amounts to a lot of people receiving the wrong treatment for their real problems. We see this all the time with ADD, Autism, and other difficult to diagnose disorders... you get an influx of people who are misdiagnosed. This is why I come out so strongly against willy nilly suggesting someone is suffering from a syndrome that has very specific criteria.. it leads to really really bad outcomes for a lot of folks.

If you call billions of followers of religion (or any ideology) sufferers of Stockholms syndrome... you've just made Stockholms meaningless. That is NOT good.

There are actually more criteria for cults than you posted here. I'd have to look them up again. Personally I find cults fascinating. I just don't understand how people get caught up in them, but I know those who have. I know people that were raised in real cults and have seen how hard it is for them to reconnect with the real world and the kind of real damage it does to them. I wouldn't call it Stockholms though... PTSS maybe, and defnitely depression at times, and a sense of low-self worth that's pretty profound.

One of your quotes describes Stockholms quite neatly:

Quote

radical transformation of personality in the face of overwhelming trauma

Just what I've been saying all along. This does not apply to religion in general. It just doesn't.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 18 September 2009 - 08:08 PM.

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#24    Sherapy

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:32 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 18 September 2009 - 07:52 PM, said:

No, hahaha. You're very much twisting this up... trying to meld regular run of the mill dry toast versions of religion with dangerous cult-like behavior. Even your own post shows they are two VERY differnt things. Something I've pointed out so many times over the years here on UM.

the OP is NOT talking about dangerous cult groups, but regular religion (specifically christian)... The criteria you have given in your post is the criteria used to help authorities identify what is termed as a "cult" and which groups may need a more watchful eye on them. It's good criteria, excellent in fact. You'll note that your garden variety Presbyterian or Catholic church doesn't meet any of it.

I'm sorry, Blind_Messiah isn't talking about extremist cult groups, he appears to be talking about your garden variety Baptists and Presbyterians etc... They don't meet the requisites for Cults or Stockholms.

Is it possible that some cult groups could have members that come out with a variant of Stockholms? Probably, but not in the classic sense. Do Manson's followers have a type of Stockholms? Maybe, but umm... they're nothing like your next door neighbor who says his bedtime prayers and toodles off the church on Sunday and attends the Wednesday bake-sale at church. Personally I think Manson had the ability to recognize and attract other psychopaths to him. I'm not entirely convinced they were brainwashed by him.

I don't think brainwashing and Stockholms are exactly the same thing either. Stockholms is more a psychological self-defense, brainwashing really isn't.

I just think it's very dangerous when we start to muddy the waters of real and very important psychological disorders and start applying them to the mundane. VERY dangerous. IN the long run, it prevents real sufferers from receiving the help they need, and amounts to a lot of people receiving the wrong treatment for their real problems. We see this all the time with ADD, Autism, and other difficult to diagnose disorders... you get an influx of people who are misdiagnosed. This is why I come out so strongly against willy nilly suggesting someone is suffering from a syndrome that has very specific criteria.. it leads to really really bad outcomes for a lot of folks.

If you call billions of followers of religion (or any ideology) sufferers of Stockholms syndrome... you've just made Stockholms meaningless. That is NOT good.

There are actually more criteria for cults than you posted here. I'd have to look them up again. Personally I find cults fascinating. I just don't understand how people get caught up in them, but I know those who have. I know people that were raised in real cults and have seen how hard it is for them to reconnect with the real world and the kind of real damage it does to them. I wouldn't call it Stockholms though... PTSS maybe, and defnitely depression at times, and a sense of low-self worth that's pretty profound.

One of your quotes describes Stockholms quite neatly:



Just what I've been saying all along. This does not apply to religion in general. It just doesn't.

actually  yes manson's followers qualify........imo

I recently watched something  about that, all sheltered from religious families  looking for  a messiah, a parent away from  home  no critical thinking skills ....sitting ducks for a monster like manson.........

regular totalitarian  religion as in fundamentalism the one truth path  or  just a person as you..who thinks  for herself raised her kid to think  for herself....happens  to beleif in g-d yet wouldn't   say its a fact or impose it on anyone...
of course their are exceptions I know  great christians  myself...I know alot of brainwashed ones too and let me tell you they  are the last to know....


big difference Nik....




the op is specific  to the fundamentalist groups IMO the g-d character fits ..

anyways its interesting to me also, very interesting  and thanks for reading and rapping with me about it...:wub:
maybe there is something  here maybe there isn't .....


I defintely see a parallel one worth exploring....

anyways and take a pic of that  bracelet on a  wrist .....I am genuinely  interested in it....


#25    BlindMessiah

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 10:16 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 18 September 2009 - 05:01 PM, said:

correct Roswin.

Stockholms really does require that someone is taken against their will and is initially supremely unhappy, frightened, and abused and then their brain psychologically starts to sympathize with their abusers as a coping mechanism.
Most people, in the conversion process to Christianity, are first threatened by hell. I imagine this would initially make them supremely unhappy, frightened, and abused. However, after converting they come to believe that hell is warranted, and they deserve it. They believe God is so amazing that we're not worthy of him without being redeemed. They're clearly captives, and they are coping with his methods, and eventually coming to love them.


#26    MissMelsWell

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:14 AM

View PostBlindMessiah, on 18 September 2009 - 10:16 PM, said:

Most people, in the conversion process to Christianity, are first threatened by hell. I imagine this would initially make them supremely unhappy, frightened, and abused. However, after converting they come to believe that hell is warranted, and they deserve it. They believe God is so amazing that we're not worthy of him without being redeemed. They're clearly captives, and they are coping with his methods, and eventually coming to love them.


I think you're quite wrong.

I know NO person that's converted to a religion who felt threatened by Hell and that's why they converted. LOL. In fact, most people I know who have converted to a religion have done so because they want to be around other people who think the same way they do already. I mean, people who join the KKK already believe they are the superior race, the KKK just confirms it for them. Same with religions... I hate to use the KKK as an example but it was the most colorful (pardon the pun) example I could come up with.

People don't just waltz into a church and get converted. They listen, they see if their own beliefs already match what's being said, and they convert because it already jives with what they believe, OR they walk out and try another group that's more closely aligned with their thinking already. Stockholm Syndrome requires a COMPLETE change of a personality, they start to behave and believe things that are completely at odds with their personality and they would have had to have done it under the threat of physical harm to their person.

People don't get held captive by mainstream churches. However, they could be captivated by some of the things a certain group believes in. But that's two entirely different things.

In Christian churches, people are left to come and go as they please and even believe what they choose... if they don't like what they are hearing they are free to either ignore it, or leave. There are rare exceptions, but that would be for another post. (the Amish could be a semi-decent example since they actively practice the shunning of baptised members who leave the group. The Amish only baptize adults who are able to choose the church on their own. If they choose not to be baptized, they are not shunned)

I sometimes attend Mennonite meetings in my area (similar to Amish). Mennonites hold some of the same values and ideologies I do, but in other ways, they believe things that I absolutely do not. For example their belief in a physical and burning hell. I don't believe in a physical hell, or hell at all for that matter... they have not changed my thinking at all. I choose to ignore the parts I don't agree with and we agree to disagree. In order for me to develop Stockholms syndrome, the Mennos would have to hold me captive, threaten me harm, mete out punishment and torture me into beliving in Hell and cause a complete turn around in my personality for me to be considered a sufferer of Stockholms. But, that doesn't happen.  

I can see how you would come up with this preposterous theory based on your own personal bias, but it's super misplaced and I think it's a dangerous parallel to draw. Like I said, it diminishes those that really do suffer from this horrible syndrome. They don't ever really fully recover in most cases. Victims that suffer from Stockholms have witnessed and experienced horrors that I hope you NEVER experience.

In fact, after doing a little reading this evening, some of the best documented cases of Stockholms are servicemen that have been held prisoners of war. Other good cases are probably the one regarding teh young woman in California that was recently found after being held captive for 20 years, or the woman who was held captive in Belgium not so long ago. Elizabeth Smart who was abducted in Salt Lake city was probably a potential Stockholms candidate, but wasn't held for long enough to completely change her personality. She was not yet feeling sympathetic toward her abductor. She was rescued in time.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 19 September 2009 - 02:22 AM.

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#27    Sherapy

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:29 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 19 September 2009 - 02:14 AM, said:

I think you're quite wrong.

I know NO person that's converted to a religion who felt threatened by Hell and that's why they converted. LOL. In fact, most people I know who have converted to a religion have done so because they want to be around other people who think the same way they do already. I mean, people who join the KKK already believe they are the superior race, the KKK just confirms it for them. Same with religions... I hate to use the KKK as an example but it was the most colorful (pardon the pun) example I could come up with.

People don't just waltz into a church and get converted. They listen, they see if their own beliefs already match what's being said, and they convert because it already jives with what they believe, OR they walk out and try another group that's more closely aligned with their thinking already. Stockholm Syndrome requires a COMPLETE change of a personality, they start to behave and believe things that are completely at odds with their personality and they would have had to have done it under the threat of physical harm to their person.

People don't get held captive by mainstream churches. However, they could be captivated by some of the things a certain group believes in. But that's two entirely different things.

In Christian churches, people are left to come and go as they please and even believe what they choose... if they don't like what they are hearing they are free to either ignore it, or leave. There are rare exceptions, but that would be for another post. (the Amish could be a semi-decent example since they actively practice the shunning of baptised members who leave the group. The Amish only baptize adults who are able to choose the church on their own. If they choose not to be baptized, they are not shunned)

I sometimes attend Mennonite meetings in my area (similar to Amish). Mennonites hold some of the same values and ideologies I do, but in other ways, they believe things that I absolutely do not. For example their belief in a physical and burning hell. I don't believe in a physical hell, or hell at all for that matter... they have not changed my thinking at all. I choose to ignore the parts I don't agree with and we agree to disagree. In order for me to develop Stockholms syndrome, the Mennos would have to hold me captive, threaten me harm, mete out punishment and torture me into beliving in Hell and cause a complete turn around in my personality for me to be considered a sufferer of Stockholms. But, that doesn't happen.  

I can see how you would come up with this preposterous theory based on your own personal bias, but it's super misplaced and I think it's a dangerous parallel to draw. Like I said, it diminishes those that really do suffer from this horrible syndrome. They don't ever really fully recover in most cases. Victims that suffer from Stockholms have witnessed and experienced horrors that I hope you NEVER experience.

your error is you are measuring all others by what  you think as filtered through your experience yet you are not in a totalitarian religious ideology Nik....  nor would you be... ... ..
for kicks take the  can I be brainwashed quiz ..if interested i'll link you lol....


so there in lies the distinction....

I see that this is  something perhaps you have  a hard time with even seeing how one could be brainwashed...

few and I mean few have  had your idyllic free spirited  childhood,  where thinking for  yourself  was celebrated....

hell establishes the  ( fear) which  is  the calling card..... set up the need for......... then  offer the solution....

create doubt by finding ones fear (death is a good one tee hee) ... ...:w00t:
convince one they need what you have and tell them they are so special :w00t:g-d loves them so much( a little ego stroking is  the bait) so he knows whats best for you and punishes you to teach you out of love for  you  ..... its up to you wink wink ( free will) gives the impression you are in control .. then make the offer choose g-d or burn in hell , or a gentler approach is eternal separation from  g-d....   .....:w00t:

throw in faith the  blue sky offer or insult one by suggesting they  aren't open minded otherwise they would be signing on the dotted line .......... ( because  there is no way to know for sure )  and  you got a  cult member who  would be willing to  redefine themselves to cope........ IMO..

next time a jw or mormon comes to your door do a experiment let em run their spiel compare it to the 8 things  that signal brainwashing or stockholm syndrome  ....

Jw's use hell the mormons use you'll be happy....

how many folks do you know that couldn't stand to be a little happier...lol....

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥, 19 September 2009 - 02:54 AM.


#28    Michelle

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:53 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 19 September 2009 - 02:14 AM, said:


People don't just waltz into a church and get converted. They listen, they see if their own beliefs already match what's being said, and they convert because it already jives with what they believe, OR they walk out and try another group that's more closely aligned with their thinking already. Stockholm Syndrome requires a COMPLETE change of a personality, they start to behave and believe things that are completely at odds with their personality and they would have had to have done it under the threat of physical harm to their person.

People don't get held captive by mainstream churches. However, they could be captivated by some of the things a certain group believes in. But that's two entirely different things.

In Christian churches, people are left to come and go as they please and even believe what they choose... if they don't like what they are hearing they are free to either ignore it, or leave.

Even though I agree with everything you've said I wanted to emphasize this part. I'll never understand the people that were raised in a religious household, as I was, that decided it wasn't right for them and left it thinking they've done something that so many other people are unable to do. People like me aren't special, we just made a decision as to what is right for us and followed through wth it regardless of what anyone thought. People do it every day.


#29    Sherapy

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:42 AM

View PostMichelle, on 19 September 2009 - 02:53 AM, said:

Even though I agree with everything you've said I wanted to emphasize this part. I'll never understand the people that were raised in a religious household, as I was, that decided it wasn't right for them and left it thinking they've done something that so many other people are unable to do. People like me aren't special, we just made a decision as to what is right for us and followed through wth it regardless of what anyone thought. People do it every day.

so was I michelle and very abused  too .....i never fell for religion  to begin with ....


but it doesn't mean we all are wired the same react the  same, deal the same, think the  same, are the same... .. ....

I don't know if you have kids but I do 3 of they are all different , handle things differently......  some things bother one that  wouldn't the other , one is sensitive, one isn't  etc etc one can laugh things off one can't .......I tend to be strong and handle my buisness, I don't play victim , i have no patience for it for me, its the way I cope ,   but not everyone copes like me and i can't honestly think  they  should ..... we each handle things in our own way, some never handle things, they never can, so do we write them off or do we try and identify and understand?

my sister was a herion addict from 12 years old  due to the religious upbrining and was murdered i say it played a big part...........my mom agrees interestingly....

yet I made it..why ???   well I was the oldest, i was also removed at 7 from the enviorment to a loving enviornment that doted on me my sister never was....

no one is special  michelle or the exception things happen along the way,  that  mold us define us,  little things that  can and  make  all the  difference in how we are , who we are the  choices  we make...............

psychology now knows that if a child sees a sibling beaten it can  traumatize them  for life.......we know that  violence in the home can create a radical follower if its a boy maybe a serial killer or abuser of some  kind not always but enough to know its  a  high risk practice............we know that not allowing any other   ideology  can thwart ones ability to make quality decisions and put one in harms way that excessive grounding and punishment  can produce  anti social behaviors.... solitary is the worst thing for  anyone, let alone a child withholding love and approval to get one to conform  makes some  dads monsters and some moms unable  to protect their kids from these dad's..... ...............we can't predict who because  behavior is hard to predict so we use  great care, we avoid  doing the things that  that could harm  does one need more of a reason? .........


lots of folks are messed up by religious upbringings and alter who they are to cope some aren't ......  

one is  not  a winner if they  lose your ability to empathize, to care to excersise compassion  ... they  are just part of the problem brainwashed into thinking they  aren't......IMO.....

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥, 19 September 2009 - 04:03 AM.


#30    momentarylapseofreason

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 05:44 AM

View PostRosewin, on 18 September 2009 - 04:55 PM, said:

When she said that I think it was in reference to this...



Either way most Christians do not view God in this light at all. Stockholm syndrome does not apply towards Christianity.


And that's the mystery of it. The biblical god is cruel, mysogonistic, jealous....blah blah blah... the list goes on. How could one not see that? It reminds me of women who love serial killers in prison. Even serial killers have a soft/good side. There is defintley coginitive dissonance going on here mixed with a big dash of confirmation bias.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason, 19 September 2009 - 05:44 AM.

If religion contained any truth, it could be ridiculed, insulted, even defiled without being diminished in any way. Its truth would shine through undimmed, unblemished, shaming those who abused it into silence. But that's not how things are. Religion is prickly, it's intolerant, it's ultra-defensive precisely because it's brittle and fragile.- Pat Condell




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