[Torgo]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 30 September 2009 - 09:34 PM, said:

If you believe that a huge boulder already slammed into this very same spot on the Moon that the LCROSS is targeting then why dont you post me a source that tells me all about it and how it effected the Earth-Moon system and Life on Earth at the time.

What was the year of this impact that you are claiming even?

I wont hold my breath though for you to provide a source that proves your claim. Because there is no proof of your claims.

The CRATER ITSELF is proof of an impact. It happened long long ago, likely billions of years ago, but there is no other way for that crater to form.

The moon is covered in tens of thousands of mapped craters visible through a moderate telescope from earth. Most of these (the big ones anyway) are billions of years old. But the moon is COVERED in craters, continuous in size from micrometers in diameter up through the largest basins filled with cooled lava, one on top of the other, overlapping, from its continuous pelting over the eons. You have no evidence to assert that such a small impact, one that statistically happens on the moon at least once every century or so given the population of objects in space, would have a different effect this time. And there are mountains of evidence against it - what we know about its structure, the fact that it has sat there almost unchanged except for the accumulation of craters with no major cataclysms for billions of years etc.

If impacts this small could cause planetary cataclysms no planet would last more than a few thousand years.

As others have said, the moon IS NOT A BALLOON. It s a stable geological unit. You seem to think the seismic data indicates it is fragile in some way. You are mistaken.

Also, I apologize for the tone of the end of my last post. I was having a bad day and did not wish to insinuate any sort of psychosis.

This post has been edited by Torgo: 01 October 2009 - 03:15 AM

[TRUEYOUTRUEME]

Torgo, on 30 September 2009 - 11:12 PM, said:

The CRATER ITSELF is proof of an impact. It happened long long ago, likely billions of years ago, but there is no other way for that crater to form.

The moon is covered in tens of thousands of mapped craters visible through a moderate telescope from earth. Most of these are billions of years old. But the moon is COVERED in craters, continuous in size from micrometers in diameter up through the largest basins filled with cooled lava, one on top of the other, overlapping, from its continuous pelting over the eons. You have no evidence to assert that such a small impact, one that statistically happens on the moon at least once every century or so given the population of objects in space, would have a different effect this time. And there are mountains of evidence against it - what we know about its structure, the fact that it has sat there almost unchanged except for the accumulation of craters with no major cataclysms for billions of years etc.

If impacts this small could cause planetary cataclysms no planet would last more than a few thousand years.

As others have said, the moon IS NOT A BALLOON. It s a stable geological unit. You seem to think the seismic data indicates it is fragile in some way. You are mistaken.

Also, I apologize for the tone of the end of my last post. I was having a bad day and did not wish to insinuate any sort of psychosis.

You can claim that the Moon appears to be covered with impact craters but you can not tell me a single detail about how these impacts effected the Earth-Moon system or Life on Earth.

I never claimed that the Moon was a balloon. I simply used an anology to show that within the realms of physics a very small object could cause a great effect on a much larger object if the conditions are right.

Also I enjoyed your post before so there is no need to apoligise. I very much appreciate your input into this thread. Sometimes it could be difficult to judge the disposition of a person on these type of forums.

I will probaly head off for the night so all the best to all.

It is you who are mistaken and no me.

[Czero 101]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 30 September 2009 - 08:04 PM, said:

There is a new article breaking tonight that supports my hypothesis about possible danger that could be caused by the LCROSS mission.

Quakes can weaken seismic faults across the Earth

More news about how fluid (water) can effect seismic activity across the entire surface and body of a planet even as large as the Earth. So ofcourse picking a target specifically for it's water or fluid content can do the same on the Moon.

The deeper (and more watery) the area of seismic acitivity the more it may effect the planetary body as a whole.

You DO realize that there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever for the presence of LIQUID WATER on the Moon, right? In fact, given the temperatures and near vacuum on the Moon, liquid water is a physical impossibility.

You DO know that the "Sea of Tranquility" and the "Sea of Storms" etc. are not ACTUAL bodies of water on the Moon, don't you?

Also, the article you referenced specifically refers to large magnitude quakes causing a tsunami, fluid-filled fractures in some faults and does NOT mention ICE (which, btw, is NOT a fluid as you have incorrectly asserted in your post above) at all.

From the aritcle

Quote

Their study coincided with a major 8.0-magnitude quake in the Pacific, unleashing a tsunami that killed scores of people in the Samoan islands and Tonga.

Quote

The monitors found that areas of fluid-filled fractures lie within this section of the fault.

Driven by seismic pressure, the fluid migrates along the fault like spidery veins in marble, acting as a lubricant that enables shocks to pry open the rock, they believe.

Quote

But the most remarkable finding was unexpected impacts from two big, distant quakes -- a 7.3-magnitude shake near the Californian town of Landers in 1992 and the 2004 Sumatra behemoth that unleashed the Indian Ocean tsunami.

Quote

Earthquakes are caused when a fault fails, either because of the buildup of stress or because of a weakening of the fault," said Taira in a press release.

Trying to compare the insignificant LCROSS impact to a large, high magnitude quake such as those referenced in the article is at best reaching, and at worst, deliberate fear-mongering and outright deception.

Quote

This scientific paper indicates that less of an impact is needed to create seismic activity the more there is fluid (water ice) that is present in the fault line or point of impact (seismic activity) to effect the entire planetary body.

The article does not mention ice whatsoever. There's also the fact that "water ice" is NOT a fluid and that at the temperatures present on the Moon, any ice would be as solid as rock.





Cz

[TRUEYOUTRUEME]

Czero 101, on 30 September 2009 - 11:42 PM, said:

You DO realize that there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever for the presence of LIQUID WATER on the Moon, right? In fact, given the temperatures and near vacuum on the Moon, liquid water is a physical impossibility.

You DO know that the "Sea of Tranquility" and the "Sea of Storms" etc. are not ACTUAL bodies of water on the Moon, don't you?

Also, the article you referenced specifically refers to large magnitude quakes causing a tsunami, fluid-filled fractures in some faults and does NOT mention ICE (which, btw, is NOT a fluid as you have incorrectly asserted in your post above) at all.

From the aritcle





Trying to compare the insignificant LCROSS impact to a large, high magnitude quake such as those referenced in the article is at best reaching, and at worst, deliberate fear-mongering and outright deception.



The article does not mention ice whatsoever. There's also the fact that "water ice" is NOT a fluid and that at the temperatures present on the Moon, any ice would be as solid as rock.





Cz

You do realize that nothing at all in your post refutes my hypothesis at all and that even though the article I posted proves nothing it still does lend more support to my hypothesis about the role of water in regards to planetary seismic and piezoelectric activity and the danger LCROSS may pose.

Of course you do know that NASA recently released information that was contrary to everything we ever believed in the past about "Water On The Moon'

Kind of remind me of a song......

[Czero 101]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 30 September 2009 - 08:53 PM, said:

You do realize that nothing at all in your post refutes my hypothesis at all and that even though the article I posted proves nothing it still does lend more support to my hypothesis about the role of water in regards to planetary seismic and piezoelectric activity and the danger LCROSS may pose.

The article says NOTHING about "piezoelectric activity".
The article says NOTHING about "ice".
The article refers to geologic forces that are COMPLETELY ABSENT on the Moon.

So, yes, the article in no way proves anything in regards to your "hypothesis" and as such, was a complete waste of time and a lame attempt at a distraction from the fact that your "hypothesis" is based on nonsense and a total lack of understanding of the Moon, geology and earthquakes, apparently.

The Moon is geologically inert and has no plate tectonic activity whatsoever. In case you weren't aware, plate tectonics is what causes Earthquakes. The only relevant geological activity on the Moon - Moonquakes - are caused by gravitational tidal forces exerted on the Moon by the Earth. Much if not all of the Moon's current geology was formed by meteoric impacts, ancient volcanism and gravitational tidal forces.

Before you start claiming things about the geology of the Moon, you'd better actually LEARN something of the geology of the Moon.

Quote

Of course you do know that NASA recently released information that was contrary to everything we ever believed in the past about "Water On The Moon'

Please provide any NASA release or article that unequivocally states that there is or could be liquid water on the Moon.





Cz

[TRUEYOUTRUEME]

Reminds me of a song or two...

[TRUEYOUTRUEME]

Czero 101, on 01 October 2009 - 12:20 AM, said:

The article says NOTHING about "piezoelectric activity".
The article says NOTHING about "ice".
The article refers to geologic forces that are COMPLETELY ABSENT on the Moon.

So, yes, the article in no way proves anything in regards to your "hypothesis" and as such, was a complete waste of time and a lame attempt at a distraction from the fact that your "hypothesis" is based on nonsense and a total lack of understanding of the Moon, geology and earthquakes, apparently.

The Moon is geologically inert and has no plate tectonic activity whatsoever. In case you weren't aware, plate tectonics is what causes Earthquakes. The only relevant geological activity on the Moon - Moonquakes - are caused by gravitational tidal forces exerted on the Moon by the Earth. Much if not all of the Moon's current geology was formed by meteoric impacts, ancient volcanism and gravitational tidal forces.

Before you start claiming things about the geology of the Moon, you'd better actually LEARN something of the geology of the Moon.


Please provide any NASA release or article that unequivocally states that there is or could be liquid water on the Moon.





Cz

Your post is a joke. It is you who know nothing on this issue. You claim that there are Moon quakes but then claim that you can prove that they have nothing to do with the same sources (water) that the article I posted asserted were a major force in regards to seismic activity on Earth.

Where is your proof that there is no chance of seismic activity on the Moon? You have none. At least I posted very recent news that supported my claim tonight. You have nothing.

[Czero 101]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 30 September 2009 - 09:28 PM, said:

Your post is a joke. It is you who know nothing on this issue. You claim that there are Moon quakes but then claim that you can prove that they have nothing to do with the same sources (water) that the article I posted asserted were a major force in regards to seismic activity on Earth.

Where is your proof that there is no chance of seismic activity on the Moon? You have none. At least I posted very recent news that supported my claim tonight. You have nothing.

Moon Society: Geologic Processes on the Moon

Quote

In the end, we find that the Moon's surface was formed through a diverse set of processes. While these are not as complex as the geologic forces on Earth (the Moon lacks plate tectonics, hydrological and aeolian forces, or a significant geochemical cycle), it is still a fascinating world. And precisely because it lacks this extra complexity, it allows us to study these simpler processes in isolation. While it might seem that we understand everything about the Moon, let me remind the reader that there are still many mysteries about the Moon that are unsolved, and that the simplified scheme presented here is bound to be exactly that--too simple! May we one day return to the Moon and learn more about our daughter world.

Artemis Project: Lunar Seismic Activity

Quote

Seismic activity on the Moon is very low, basically insignificant. Due to the lack of plate tectonics, Lunar seismic activity is about a 100 millionth of Earth's, or ~2 x 10¹⁰ J/yr (excluding impacts). In eight years of monitoring, a large-but-rare moonquake has not been recorded, but it is possible to have up to 1 x 10¹⁴ J/yr if such events were recorded. The largest recorded seismic activities are approximately equivalent to a 4 on the richter scale, with 1-2 being typical.

The lunar seismic activity is usually caused from tidal forces and secondary effects from impacts. Secondary effects includes fresh crater ejecta cracking due to thermal stresses and disruption of slopes with high angles of repose. Other, non-seismic activity includes astronaut activity and impacts (both meteorite and artificial).

The Moon has very low elastic wave propagation losses, and seismic activity is thus clearly registered over long distances. This low attenuation also results in a long half-lives of seismic energy, in the tens of minutes, and the phrase "rang like a bell" after an Saturn upper stage lunar impact. Incidently, this long seismic signature suggests itself as a possible communication device, albeit with bandwidth issues.

There are secondary effects from lunar seismic activity that can create hazards to a presence on the Moon. Because of the excellent wave propagation, seismic activity can create widespread secondary activity, such as crater wall slumping and landslides. Apollo 17 astronauts visited a landslide which probably resulted from the impact that created the Tycho crater, 100 million years ago, and 2000 kilometers away.

Although the effect of lunar seismic activity is widespread, a lunar astronaut would hardly notice a moonquake happening, and precautions for moonquakes are probably unnecessatry. There is a small probability of a major event, large ones almost certainly being impact-related, but even then precautions, if used, will possibly be unnecessary. A site selection criteria may be to areas of potential secondary activity, such as those near high angles of repose (although this may be a given).

You could also read the following:

Geological History of the Moon

To A Rocky Moon: A Geologist's History of Lunar Exploration

Origin of the Moon



Cz

[digitalartist]

Here is a link to a post by czero 101 in another thread detailing other impacts purposefully made on the moon with objects several times heavier than the planned lcross mission.

http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=2951127

[MID]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 30 September 2009 - 09:34 PM, said:

If you believe that a huge boulder already slammed into this very same spot on the Moon that the LCROSS is targeting then why dont you post me a source that tells me all about it and how it effected the Earth-Moon system and Life on Earth at the time.

What was the year of this impact that you are claiming even?

I wont hold my breath though for you to provide a source that proves your claim. Because there is no proof of your claims.

Honestly...

You truly must be kidding, right?

[protostar]

I was thinking that, if the Earths crust can withstand numerous underground nuclear explosions (tests), then I'm sure LCROSS will be like an itch to the moon!
I believe the moon has a crust about twice the depth of the Earths.

[MID]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 30 September 2009 - 09:28 PM, said:

Call it nonsense if you want but you are not posting anything at all convincing that it is.

i think I can see where you're coming from here...

Quote

We have not impacted the Moon countless times as you claim. Less then 20 even. And all of the results were not that promising as well.

I won't ask you to explain what the results of the numerous impacts we've executed on the Moon were supposed to be.

Quote

And if you believe that the Moon has been slammed around like a ragdoll or something in the past then good for you but there is no witnessed impact that we can prove what the effects were in the past to the Earth-Moon system for impacts we never witnessed. In the distant past there may have been impacts on the Moon that have caused great death and catastrophe to Life on Earth.

The Marshall Space Flight Center has observed over 100 impacts on the lunar surface in the past 4 years.

Astronomers frequently observe meteor impacts on the Moon.

Have you never bothered to investigate the facts which deny your claims?

There are literally millions of impact craters on the Moon. Where did they come from?

Quote

So your point about there being craters that look like impact craters on the Moon from the past is mute. For all you know these impacts killed off much of Life on the Earth.

The word is "moot", not "mute".

For all you know, they had no effect at all upon life on Earth...and for all we know either!

Quote

Claim all you want that the science is settled but it is not. There is a risk we are taking with the LCROSS mission.

You may believe what you wish, of course. Your arguments are founded upon nothing, and your knowledge of the Moon is of course somewhat lacking.
You do realize of course that 8 days from now, this thread will be a slam TRUYOUTRUEME symposium?

What shall you say when LCROSS impacts the lunar surface, and nothing happens to the Earth?

Likely nothing I'm sure.
But be prepared for the comments that come your way.

[MID]

TRUEYOUTRUEME, on 01 October 2009 - 12:28 AM, said:

At least I posted very recent news that supported my claim tonight.

Next Saturday, let's see how supported your claim is...

[Czero 101]

MID, on 01 October 2009 - 04:49 PM, said:

What shall you say when LCROSS impacts the lunar surface, and nothing happens to the Earth?

Likely nothing I'm sure.
But be prepared for the comments that come your way.

Likely the claim will be that whatever alleged / imagined harmful effects to the Earth / Moon system will take time to be fully realized and noticed, and that by the time they are noticed, it will be far too late for us to do anything about it...







Cz

[TRUEYOUTRUEME]

As far as any comments coming my way in a week or so dont worry I can take it. I am not claiming that there will be damage done to the Moon and/or Earth-Moon system but am only posting it for discussion as a possibility. I certainly pray that there wll not be any damage done.

Size is not the only consideration. To the best of my knowledge LCROSS is unique simply by the fact that it will create more kinetic energy blsting "into" the surface then any of the past endeavors of crashing space craft into the Moon. There is a difference between letting a space craft crash into the Moon and in firing a rocket at the Moon. Not to mention that this will be a double blast as well deep in a crater intended to drive below the surface and create as big of a plume as possible.

Of course substantial Moonquakes were recorded (lasting hours) during some of the past crashes into the Moon. It is also known that the Moon experiences mysterious quakes (as strong as magnitude 5.5 on the Richter scale) that happen both near the surface and deep within the Moon as well. Of course in the past we also did not know about "Water on the Moon" which also very well may play into the seismic activity of the Moon.

As I said before I believe that the location is also an important factor as well. Deep within a crater in the coldest spot in the solar system where the most water may exist. Besides the fact that we do not know what other chemical agents may exist in this part of the Moon that can cause possible strong piezoelctric effects or possible explosive reactions.

There are in my opinions too many unknowns in regards to the safety of the LCROSS mission.
If the mission is carried out safely it still does not make me wrong overall. There are more and more missions being designed to blast the Moon and safety issues should start being debated and discussed more by the people and not just blindly trust the government scientists. Sorry if so many here disagree but I am just being honest.