[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 28 October 2009 - 07:18 PM, said:

Hm.. grapes are delicious.. Nah your right haha

Though if your happy with an economy in shambles and destroying finite resources and exploiting children for labor then yours, and my views vary greatly.

I know that a penny's worth of philosophy is not going to solve the problems in the world today and I do not mean to trivialize or marginalize any exploited groups.

However, with contentment comes stagnation. I have hopes that our civilization will continue to develop and grow and we will find a way to end the tremendous failures of human nature that you have mentioned there. Though one should not run before one can walk, and there is a process to development and progress that should not be circumvented.

It's all relative, in any case. In the future of chaise longues and intellectual conversation that you hope for, the less intelligent and less capable minds will be the exploited classes like children and minority groups are today.

People are like that. Inherently manipulative.

F

This post has been edited by Fitter: 29 October 2009 - 10:44 AM

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter, on 29 October 2009 - 11:43 AM, said:

I know that a penny's worth of philosophy is not going to solve the problems in the world today and I do not mean to trivialize or marginalize any exploited groups.

However, with contentment comes stagnation. I have hopes that our civilization will continue to develop and grow and we will find a way to end the tremendous failures of human nature that you have mentioned there. Though one should not run before one can walk, and there is a process to development and progress that should not be circumvented.

It's all relative, in any case. In the future of chaise longues and intellectual conversation that you hope for, the less intelligent and less capable minds will be the exploited classes like children and minority groups are today.

People are like that. Inherently manipulative.

F

Hm.. Well 'we must walk before we can run' is obviously true but is it really so difficult to learn from past society's mistakes? I learn from others mistakes so I don't make my own, whats the difference if any ?

[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 01 November 2009 - 02:10 AM, said:

Hm.. Well 'we must walk before we can run' is obviously true but is it really so difficult to learn from past society's mistakes? I learn from others mistakes so I don't make my own, whats the difference if any ?

Because whilst a person is a rational, discerning individual, people are irrational, panic-driven, incoherent, nonsensical groups who diverge from the 'norm' to create an average of all possibilities.

A society is a conglomeration of all aspects that can be. If everyone thought the same and did the same, society would stagnate and end.

F

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter, on 01 November 2009 - 01:41 PM, said:

Because whilst a person is a rational, discerning individual, people are irrational, panic-driven, incoherent, nonsensical groups who diverge from the 'norm' to create an average of all possibilities.

A society is a conglomeration of all aspects that can be. If everyone thought the same and did the same, society would stagnate and end.

F

Yes but the way people are thinking today is still going to lead to a stagnation and a premature ending. Or do you live under a rock and not notice the degree of absolute STUPIDITY to which most people uphold their lives ?

[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 02 November 2009 - 11:56 PM, said:

Yes but the way people are thinking today is still going to lead to a stagnation and a premature ending. Or do you live under a rock and not notice the degree of absolute STUPIDITY to which most people uphold their lives ?

You are obviously blind to the progress that society has made in the world over the last few decades. From the cold war IDIOCY of nuclear weapon proliferation we have had not a halt to production of, but a reduction in nuclear arms and have now begun the move towards elimination of nuclear weapons. We have made progress towards integration and adaptation of multi-ethnic societies from the criticism and alienation of foreign nationals after historically creating a slave trade. From putting homosexuals to the sword, we have recognised the rights and individuality of differing sexual preferences... And even very recently, America has announced it is coming out of it's recession....

Don't be so foolish to think it's all bad news. And don't be so narrow minded to resort to insults when you can't win discussion points; it debases your position and makes you look incapable.

F

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter, on 03 November 2009 - 08:43 AM, said:

You are obviously blind to the progress that society has made in the world over the last few decades. From the cold war IDIOCY of nuclear weapon proliferation we have had not a halt to production of, but a reduction in nuclear arms and have now begun the move towards elimination of nuclear weapons. We have made progress towards integration and adaptation of multi-ethnic societies from the criticism and alienation of foreign nationals after historically creating a slave trade. From putting homosexuals to the sword, we have recognised the rights and individuality of differing sexual preferences... And even very recently, America has announced it is coming out of it's recession....

Don't be so foolish to think it's all bad news. And don't be so narrow minded to resort to insults when you can't win discussion points; it debases your position and makes you look incapable.

F

Well if you took offense from my earlier post i do apologize. It was not meant to insult it was more a half-hearted attempt at humor.

Also discussion is not about 'winning' more of arguing opposing viewpoints in hopes of actually learning something. Of course progress is being made in a lot of aspects but thats the big picture. Which is of course important but what about propaganda? Shall we argue this for a while?

The point that i have been trying to get across is individual ignorance. Mostly bred by the media -propaganda- and by individuals unwillingness to learn.

This post has been edited by Alex carnavas: 06 November 2009 - 02:50 AM

[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 06 November 2009 - 02:49 AM, said:

The point that i have been trying to get across is individual ignorance. Mostly bred by the media -propaganda- and by individuals unwillingness to learn.

Well I'm sorry, but my position is based on the big picture. I have no other recourse but to agree with you if we discuss minutia.

We could start on some mutual ground here if you like. Take a look at my post in the "Humans seek to transcend nature via culture" thread, you can see that I agree with you on the media propaganda point. I guess I agree with you on the individuals unwillingness to learn point also, I just don't see that as a problem that needs addressing. Where we diverge seems to be on the interpretation of where society is at the moment.

Forgive me, but i'm going to turn your own words against you here...I do not think it would benefit society to turn all attention, time, effort, congnitive brain power, desire et al. to intellectual hobbies, that's all. The way I see it there is a structured process to the development of a civilization and the successful progress of a culture to the point where intellectual development is a next logical step. That next step is not right now. I do not think it would do any cultural good for everyone to stop concentrating on the evils of this time, such as child labour or economical crisis to devote valuable time and effort to a selfish development of our own cognizance. There are people in the world who are making inroads into intellectual development, and valuable and measurable steps towards cultural development. They're the people whom we invest political power, who gain institutional control, who by their own hard work gain international recognition and who have abilities to place themselves into positions of influence and manipulation.

I say let them get on with it, whilst we get on with the business of living.

Now, I would the first one to stand up here and shout that the politicians are the worst ones for allowing those evils of today, but don't forget that they're working on a different level to the rest of us. You and I go out to work, earn money to provide for our families and to support our way of life. The world leaders and politicians are out there earning trade deals, supporting populations and supporting/promoting the Western way of life. It's the same principle, but on a larger scale. Now, I don't want to get into a debate here about power corruption, that's a chat for another time. Suffice to say that I bet you and I would agree on the power corrupts concept.

Which brings me back to my original question that neither you, nor Coberst has yet answered; if you think so strongly that these people need shaking up, what are you doing about it ? If you do nothing more than post your thoughts on a web forum, then you are as culpable as the people you criticise.

You're saying we need action. Do something.

F

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter, on 06 November 2009 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well I'm sorry, but my position is based on the big picture. I have no other recourse but to agree with you if we discuss minutia.

We could start on some mutual ground here if you like. Take a look at my post in the "Humans seek to transcend nature via culture" thread, you can see that I agree with you on the media propaganda point. I guess I agree with you on the individuals unwillingness to learn point also, I just don't see that as a problem that needs addressing. Where we diverge seems to be on the interpretation of where society is at the moment.

Forgive me, but i'm going to turn your own words against you here...I do not think it would benefit society to turn all attention, time, effort, congnitive brain power, desire et al. to intellectual hobbies, that's all. The way I see it there is a structured process to the development of a civilization and the successful progress of a culture to the point where intellectual development is a next logical step. That next step is not right now. I do not think it would do any cultural good for everyone to stop concentrating on the evils of this time, such as child labour or economical crisis to devote valuable time and effort to a selfish development of our own cognizance. There are people in the world who are making inroads into intellectual development, and valuable and measurable steps towards cultural development. They're the people whom we invest political power, who gain institutional control, who by their own hard work gain international recognition and who have abilities to place themselves into positions of influence and manipulation.

I say let them get on with it, whilst we get on with the business of living.

Now, I would the first one to stand up here and shout that the politicians are the worst ones for allowing those evils of today, but don't forget that they're working on a different level to the rest of us. You and I go out to work, earn money to provide for our families and to support our way of life. The world leaders and politicians are out there earning trade deals, supporting populations and supporting/promoting the Western way of life. It's the same principle, but on a larger scale. Now, I don't want to get into a debate here about power corruption, that's a chat for another time. Suffice to say that I bet you and I would agree on the power corrupts concept.

Which brings me back to my original question that neither you, nor Coberst has yet answered; if you think so strongly that these people need shaking up, what are you doing about it ? If you do nothing more than post your thoughts on a web forum, then you are as culpable as the people you criticise.

You're saying we need action. Do something.

F

Well first ill start off with we do agree, and disagree on different views just like anyone else, and to not further the debate -which i will respectfully decline- I will agree to disagree with you. But I do hope that you as much as I have come away from this with either some new perspectives or the consideration of others perspectives.

And what i am i doing ? Awareness goes a long way wouldn't you agree? Also I do not use gasoline I haven't even bothered getting my license if i need to go somewhere far usually someone can drive me, other than that walking is fine by me.

Also i have some preps. I believe we're going to be facing tough economic times in the future -you may say i have a tin foil hat i can take it just today i checked out "idiot america", and "dude wheres my country?" from the library and am also reading a manifesto from Ron Paul.- and that most to all forms of organized government will be lost. I hope -with my intellect- to set up a community and build it from the ground up. I do not consider myself an intellectual by any means. I always thought of aristocrats and other such people as just sitting around sipping tea which is hardly what i do. So when the **** hits the fan ill be ready to set the record straight.

This post has been edited by Alex carnavas: 07 November 2009 - 01:43 AM

[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 07 November 2009 - 01:42 AM, said:

And what i am i doing ? Awareness goes a long way wouldn't you agree?

No actually, awareness is not enough...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke the 'father' of conservatism.. someone whom I am sure Dr No would agree with.

Alex carnavas, on 07 November 2009 - 01:42 AM, said:

...I do not use gasoline...if i need to go somewhere far usually someone can drive me...

Obviously the burning of fossil fuels does not bother you so much that you wont take advantage of it when you choose to !!

Alex carnavas, on 06 November 2009 - 02:49 AM, said:

...what about propaganda? Shall we argue this for a while?
The point that i have been trying to get across is individual ignorance. Mostly bred by the media -propaganda- and by individuals unwillingness to learn.

Alex carnavas, on 07 November 2009 - 01:42 AM, said:

...just today i checked out "idiot america", and "dude wheres my country?" from the library and am also reading a manifesto from Ron Paul.

Propaganda : The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause, or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

This is civilization... this is society... you and I are both a part of the same society and culture and both an integral and absolutely necessary part of this society. The fact that we both see our roles differently is also part of the system and absolutely necessary... no, not necessary, ESSENTIAL. We should be prepared to accommodate each others perspectives in forming and re-forming such a complex multi-cultural society such as the one we are in now; after all, society is a work in progress, I believe it should never be considered finished, complete or Utopian but always be strived for to be better than it is, or could be.
That's half the reason that I am prepared to accept a certain level of failure along the way. And, yes, I am even prepared to accommodate your desire to form a commune based on your intellectual values; but don't get left behind my friend, I kind of thought the stuff had already hit the fan... Lots of people are doing things about it right now for me on my behalf. They have a head start on you.

And I do value the differences between us. I think your role in society is essential, I do hope you think my role is not redundant.

Who's right, and who's to say so ?

F

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter, on 08 November 2009 - 12:50 PM, said:

No actually, awareness is not enough...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke the 'father' of conservatism.. someone whom I am sure Dr No would agree with.



Obviously the burning of fossil fuels does not bother you so much that you wont take advantage of it when you choose to !!



Propaganda : The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause, or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

This is civilization... this is society... you and I are both a part of the same society and culture and both an integral and absolutely necessary part of this society. The fact that we both see our roles differently is also part of the system and absolutely necessary... no, not necessary, ESSENTIAL. We should be prepared to accommodate each others perspectives in forming and re-forming such a complex multi-cultural society such as the one we are in now; after all, society is a work in progress, I believe it should never be considered finished, complete or Utopian but always be strived for to be better than it is, or could be.
That's half the reason that I am prepared to accept a certain level of failure along the way. And, yes, I am even prepared to accommodate your desire to form a commune based on your intellectual values; but don't get left behind my friend, I kind of thought the stuff had already hit the fan... Lots of people are doing things about it right now for me on my behalf. They have a head start on you.

And I do value the differences between us. I think your role in society is essential, I do hope you think my role is not redundant.

Who's right, and who's to say so ?

F

Very good point -awareness is not enough i cant believe i forgot that quote.

The burning of fossil fuels does bother me because there is an amazingly ABUNDANT form of FREE energy. Ever here of solar panels ? They've been around for a while why don't we use them ? People are too comfortable with going to the gas station, and filling their death tanks with ozone deleter.

Theres not much else i can do except limit my usage. That is until i buy a diesel car and use only vegetable oil. Which is transported using gasoline, but by using vegetable oil instead of gasoline i would say im cutting consumption in half.

Our representatives advocate change but all I see is a continuance down the same awkward death spiral.

"We should be prepared to accommodate each others perspectives in forming and re-forming such a complex multi-cultural society such as the one we are in now"

Of course; Truer words have never been spoken. Yet all i see is the accommodation of deeper pockets for blood-stained money.

"I think your role in society is essential, I do hope you think my role is not redundant."

If not for free thinkers we would have lost our roles in society long ago and traded them in for bar codes and shackles. Yet i fear theres more of "them" than "us."

This post has been edited by Alex carnavas: 08 November 2009 - 04:41 PM

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter ? Have you grown bored of our debate ?

[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 17 November 2009 - 10:17 PM, said:

Fitter ? Have you grown bored of our debate ?

Sorry, I do apologise. Not bored, no; you present too good a case for that. I have just been trying to get my kitchen redecorated before Christmas, working full time and trying to get some quality time in with the family... not to mention butting heads in another thread... My thoughts are a tad coloured at the moment...

'Hectic' just doesn't convey it at the moment.

F

[Fitter]

Alex carnavas, on 08 November 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:

Very good point -awareness is not enough i cant believe i forgot that quote.

The burning of fossil fuels does bother me because there is an amazingly ABUNDANT form of FREE energy. Ever here of solar panels ? They've been around for a while why don't we use them ? People are too comfortable with going to the gas station, and filling their death tanks with ozone deleter.

Theres not much else i can do except limit my usage. That is until i buy a diesel car and use only vegetable oil. Which is transported using gasoline, but by using vegetable oil instead of gasoline i would say im cutting consumption in half.

Our representatives advocate change but all I see is a continuance down the same awkward death spiral.

"We should be prepared to accommodate each others perspectives in forming and re-forming such a complex multi-cultural society such as the one we are in now"

Of course; Truer words have never been spoken. Yet all i see is the accommodation of deeper pockets for blood-stained money.

"I think your role in society is essential, I do hope you think my role is not redundant."

If not for free thinkers we would have lost our roles in society long ago and traded them in for bar codes and shackles. Yet i fear theres more of "them" than "us."

Maybe I could take a different tack here and propose instigating a Utopian society in a short time scale...

Let's suggest that the 'people' have risen and by sheer force of numbers and/or public opinion demand that those representatives that you speak of actually do something rather than just talk about it. What would be the first thing to happen ? A ceasing of the burning of fossil fuels perhaps with a structured replacement of petrol /diesel vehicles to veg oil or solar energy ?

Could all the petrol and diesel vehicles be replace with solar powered vehicles in a quick enough time frame to not unbalance even the most local economic structure ? Veg oil diesels are carbon neutral, but do still produce pollution. The reduction in carbon produced would aide a reduction in the greenhouse effect, but would not affect the ozone layer hole. There is vastly more carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere by industrial activity than car fumes, so no significant improvement on that score...Who would make the cars and who would benefit from the revenue ? If the factories producing PV cells were state-owned, who would run them and control distribution. Someone has to be in control or you have anarchy. How much pollution would producing the PV cells create ? How much pollution would be caused by the destruction of the redundant vehicles all being melted down at (roughly) the same time ? PV cells last about 30 years, but that is by no means the time scale that people change their cars by; how does one go about changing the buying habits of the population without draconian measures or liberty-withholding laws ?

And this is all without going into the physics of the power provided by PV cells at all. My knowledge on solar power is sketchy at best, but I do believe there is a very good reason that solar powered cars are made so small, light and streamlined... the power provided by solar cells is restrictive to vehicle size and load. That suggests to me that everyone would need a car each just to get about; with the increased volume of production, industrial pollution and traffic on the roads that that would create.

Veg oil powered diesels are a good idea, but as I said before, they do still pollute, and the simple vast area of land needed to put over to the various oil producing plants is huge. In fact there is not enough cultivatable land in the world to support vehicle fuel production and food supplies...
You get one or the other. Striking a balance between the two means that someone has to decide who has a car and who doesn't... and presumably who eats and who doesn't... Are you up to that choice ?

The alternative is a structured approach changing peoples perceptions of fuel use and a gradual introduction of the alternatives whilst phasing out the bad... Pretty much what is actually happening now. I agree with you that the world is in a pretty poor state and that it is the fault of the last few generations, but I also believe that to learn from mistakes is essential, whether that is on a personal or global scale.

F

[Alex carnavas]

Fitter, on 18 November 2009 - 12:44 PM, said:

Maybe I could take a different tack here and propose instigating a Utopian society in a short time scale...

Let's suggest that the 'people' have risen and by sheer force of numbers and/or public opinion demand that those representatives that you speak of actually do something rather than just talk about it. What would be the first thing to happen ? A ceasing of the burning of fossil fuels perhaps with a structured replacement of petrol /diesel vehicles to veg oil or solar energy ?

Could all the petrol and diesel vehicles be replace with solar powered vehicles in a quick enough time frame to not unbalance even the most local economic structure ? Veg oil diesels are carbon neutral, but do still produce pollution. The reduction in carbon produced would aide a reduction in the greenhouse effect, but would not affect the ozone layer hole. There is vastly more carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere by industrial activity than car fumes, so no significant improvement on that score...Who would make the cars and who would benefit from the revenue ? If the factories producing PV cells were state-owned, who would run them and control distribution. Someone has to be in control or you have anarchy. How much pollution would producing the PV cells create ? How much pollution would be caused by the destruction of the redundant vehicles all being melted down at (roughly) the same time ? PV cells last about 30 years, but that is by no means the time scale that people change their cars by; how does one go about changing the buying habits of the population without draconian measures or liberty-withholding laws ?

And this is all without going into the physics of the power provided by PV cells at all. My knowledge on solar power is sketchy at best, but I do believe there is a very good reason that solar powered cars are made so small, light and streamlined... the power provided by solar cells is restrictive to vehicle size and load. That suggests to me that everyone would need a car each just to get about; with the increased volume of production, industrial pollution and traffic on the roads that that would create.

Veg oil powered diesels are a good idea, but as I said before, they do still pollute, and the simple vast area of land needed to put over to the various oil producing plants is huge. In fact there is not enough cultivatable land in the world to support vehicle fuel production and food supplies...
You get one or the other. Striking a balance between the two means that someone has to decide who has a car and who doesn't... and presumably who eats and who doesn't... Are you up to that choice ?

The alternative is a structured approach changing peoples perceptions of fuel use and a gradual introduction of the alternatives whilst phasing out the bad... Pretty much what is actually happening now. I agree with you that the world is in a pretty poor state and that it is the fault of the last few generations, but I also believe that to learn from mistakes is essential, whether that is on a personal or global scale.

F

Thanks for clearing that up and i hope the kitchen renovation goes smoothly as does time with the family best of luck to you

Also while you seem pretty certain about your claims I must admit mine change almost daily in light of new information and new considerations. So this next post I think ill agree with most of what you stated above. ^^^

Of course I am by no means instigating anarchism or that the people "rise up" I think another enlightenment is in order as Coberst suggests ?

Although vegetable oil may cause some pollution it is still much cleaner then burning oil. It is by no means however (in light of consideration of your last post) a perfect plan. More a means to an end.. For instance (my history is shady at best) was it not the founding fathers of the united states who where the advocates to stop using materials and items imported, and taxed from Europe? Oil if im not wrong comes from the middle east which has the biggest reserve known to well everyone. Our consumption of oil is very much finite, and harmful.

The "means to an end" which i propose -the fuel to our lives part at least- is that we slowly break away from our harmful ways and consider new more efficient and reliable ways. The sun is always going to rise in the morning is it not? Seems pretty reliable to me.

Though it may not be efficient to run our modes of transportation on solar power our homes can be powered by it and an array of other means -such as geothermal.

Any economy local, regional, national, or global will take a giant pit-fall if this were enacted so quickly of course -this is blatantly obvious, but it doesn't have to be a one day to the other global ****-fest.

Yes the world is in a poor state but I honestly don't see a lot being done. A little here and there but still not enough. Or maybe im just not looking at the BIGGER picture and being overly pessimistic in my hatred of humanity and what it has sunk to ? I do hope you are right, and we realize our errors.