[Paranormalcy]

Famous at the time (and still now I guess), the late Joseph Banks (J.B.) Rhine was head of the Parapsychology Department at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, and he and his wife and staff carried out and recorded statistics for thousands of tedious tests, looking for volunteers' significant "guesses" on Zenar cards, which he essentially invented for his tests to begin with. High enough ratios, above chance, suggested some kind of Extra Sensory Perception (ESP) or Psi as he called the entire field of "paranormal" psychic phenomena - significantly LOW results, much less than chance, he ALSO theorized might be a sign of "Psi Missing", some sort of psychic interference or influence or receptivity which actually interferes with either guessing or universal probability itself.

Sadly, later investigations into the Rhine results and methods apparently highlighted a number of flaws in calculations and requirements and recordings, not to mention potential fraud and violating various experimental conditions by many of his researchers, basically invalidating decades of work, thousands and thousands of man hours, not to mention money.

Anyway, at one point, he came up with a structure, an outline, of potential psychic (psi) abilities, which I'm reproducing below:

Rhine Parapsychological Divisions and Examples

DIVISION EXAMPLE
A. Parapsychical Extra Sensory Perception (E.S.P.)
B. Parapsychophysical Psychokinesis (Telekinesis)
C. Parapsychophysiology Stigmatization
D. Parapsychopathology Psychic healing
E. Parapsycholiteracy Automatic writing

Subdivisions of Parapsychology - basically, each category above can contain the below.

DIVISION EXAMPLE
1. Single Corporeal Simple Clairvoyance
2. Incorporeal Influencing Corporeal Possession
3. Corporeal-Incorporeal Cooperative Medium trance
4. Single Incorporeal Simple Hauntings

Note: The following five subdivisions were not included in Dr. Rhine's original theories and are not recognized as valid extensions of his work. They are included only to offer a more complete extrapolation of the possibilities that could conceivably exist in Rhine's framework.

5. Corporeal Influencing Corporeal Telepathic suggestion (mind control)
6. Corporeal Influencing Incorporeal Spirit summoning (necromancy)
7. Corporeal Cooperative Telepathy
8. Incorporeal Influencing Incorporeal NO DATA (Astral combat?)
9. Incorporeal Cooperative NO DATA (Astral ceremonial magic?)

What I'm wondering is if anyone is familiar with Rhine and his work and general current thoughts on the subject(s), as well as his divisions above, and the expanded one as well. Does his initial division and subdivisions of each of these seem to make sense, and represent most common alleged psychic abilities? Is there still room for Rhine and his attempt at a "hard science" approach to validate psi, including probability studies and mathematics, or is this something that simply can't be quantified or qualified for that matter?

I'm of two minds about it - I think the basis of his categories seems reasonably sound and I can see how he would have come up with it, though it is likely missing a few important categories, and I think even current research into psi could use this as a basis for new experiments and results, but at the same time, I am not sure if it will be possible, as I noted, to "prove" psychic abilities/ESP using standard laboratory experiments, even if it's only because there is arguably some sort of "laboratory effect" which causes so-called "psychics" (in other settings) and the volunteers, to not be able to perform as normal due to the sterility and alienness of the room and lab, and tedium of 100 trials of guessing 30 cards, etc.

[Mr Walker]

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Is there still room for Rhine and his attempt at a "hard science" approach to validate psi, including probability studies and mathematics

Absolutely. In fact i think it is imperative, in order to understand and to qualify/quantify this area of human experience.
I grew up with this,and read a lot about it. I appreciate your comments that some research has been discredited, but i also wonder how much that is a consequence of changing academic strictures, rivalry and priorities.

I assume the Rhine institute for parapsychology (an ongoing entity with a long history) was named after this person.
Edit Yes, i just read the history of both Rhine and the institute.

This post has been edited by Mr Walker: 16 October 2009 - 12:25 AM

[PhenomInvestigator]

Modern parapsychology research focuses on two subject areas, which Rhine Research today holds with: Extrasensory Perception and Psychokinesis.
Classic laboratory experiments in ESP include tests focusing on telepathy and general psi (clairvoyance, etc) abilities. Because of technical difficulties in isolating general psi, tests are often designed for both and they are referred as General ESP (GESP). PK testing was originally done with colored chips and was later refined to mechanical machines using dice. More recently microPK testing has embraced random event generators (REGs) and other computer-based selection tools which subjects are asked to influence.

To my best knowledge the list you posted is not used at Rhine Research today.

Rhine Research is run today by Sally Rhine Feather, who is J. B. Rhine's daughter.

[Paranormalcy]

It must be out of date. Thank you for the correction/update. I haven't read any very late/recent Rhine research or notes on his work, and was not aware his daughter took over - that is really something, maybe we will get something from them at some point that is really a breakthrough.

[Mattshark]

Problem with Rhine is, a lack of being able to replicate his results and his staff being found to deliberately falsify results and him refusing to release the information about whom did that (meaning all who studied under him are also considered untrustworthy).

[Paranormalcy]

Yeah that's what I had mentioned in the OP up there. I hate that because I read his books and followed his logic and tried to understand his equations and ratios and probability charts - I can't speak for his researchers, but I believe he was authentic and sincere in what he was doing, and approached it as a scientist first, trying to reconcile what is perhaps the unrecononcilable, with the world and its workings as we know them, trying to cipher out that "something more" that so many people feel is there. I continually am disappointed no more happened in his work than it did, and even if now considered invalid, that people still yet do not look at his approaches and methods and feel they are worthy to be duplicated and improved upon for new research.

[G3N0M3]

To tell you guys the truth, not being a conspirator at all (or as much as I think I am) I think that the "destruction" of his test were deliberate. I mean where would we be if any of this was proven? What type of schools would there be? How would we control this? How does a police system deal with this new "threat".

Frankly we can't deal with any proof put forward, if you think about it where would the existence of life after death do to religion? Where would these "gifts/abilities" come from? We just couldn't handle it, and we won't be able to until we deal with it indirectly.

So blankly we need to slowly let it seep into the minds of the young ones, educate the old, and experience growth in areas we've never known before.

Oh and the main reason why they don't focus in many different type is that it would cost money they just don't have. Hence the reason why going from 10 different programs were chopped to a couple, that is only based off of "generalization".

[Mattshark]

G3N0M3, on 05 November 2009 - 03:12 AM, said:

To tell you guys the truth, not being a conspirator at all (or as much as I think I am) I think that the "destruction" of his test were deliberate. I mean where would we be if any of this was proven? What type of schools would there be? How would we control this? How does a police system deal with this new "threat".

Frankly we can't deal with any proof put forward, if you think about it where would the existence of life after death do to religion? Where would these "gifts/abilities" come from? We just couldn't handle it, and we won't be able to until we deal with it indirectly.

So blankly we need to slowly let it seep into the minds of the young ones, educate the old, and experience growth in areas we've never known before.

Oh and the main reason why they don't focus in many different type is that it would cost money they just don't have. Hence the reason why going from 10 different programs were chopped to a couple, that is only based off of "generalization".

I can't agree, he was the one unable to replicate his own findings which to me suggests his team at least wanted to get fame from the results. The fact they were caught fixing their results so they fitted their hypothesis suggests that more than anything else.

[G3N0M3]

Mattshark, on 05 November 2009 - 08:30 AM, said:

I can't agree, he was the one unable to replicate his own findings which to me suggests his team at least wanted to get fame from the results. The fact they were caught fixing their results so they fitted their hypothesis suggests that more than anything else.

K Matt, you've seen how many people's posts about how they cannot control their abilities no? Is that not a pattern of itself? Also as Paranormalacy states, even a psychics hit/miss ratio depends on their environment and factors we don't even know about yet...

Try to agree with everything else I said, maybe that would open up your conceptualization a bit more, also Rhine was not the only scientist in the world who "bent" they're findings to prove a point, are they all wrong?

[Mattshark]

G3N0M3, on 06 November 2009 - 07:42 PM, said:

K Matt, you've seen how many people's posts about how they cannot control their abilities no? Is that not a pattern of itself? Also as Paranormalacy states, even a psychics hit/miss ratio depends on their environment and factors we don't even know about yet...

The problem with that is that to me it suggests that this phenomena is based on misinterpretation than lack of control.

Quote

Try to agree with everything else I said, maybe that would open up your conceptualization a bit more, also Rhine was not the only scientist in the world who "bent" they're findings to prove a point, are they all wrong?

Well it wasn't Rhine who cheated, he just couldn't recreate, it was his associates he just never revealed whom. The problem is that it correlates with his initial findings then inability to reproduce them. What it suggests is that the first results where false positives due to falsification.

[Paranormalcy]

But as I said, just because of this possibly, maybe even likely, fraud, in Rhine's research, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater; there is no reason this type of highly controlled (this time anyway) laboratory experiments can still be conducted - you don't just quit after something goes wrong with one and say "Well, that's it I guess. We must never do this again because one experiment was wrong."

Also, although I agree the fraud does make all his findings and conclusions suspect, it doesn't necessarily mean they are - I would not be surprised if he got some accurate and reliable data, just chance alone could account for that - unfortunately, it is likely lost amongst all the corrupted data, if it exists at all.

[Mattshark]

Paranormalcy, on 07 November 2009 - 02:19 AM, said:

But as I said, just because of this possibly, maybe even likely, fraud, in Rhine's research, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater; there is no reason this type of highly controlled (this time anyway) laboratory experiments can still be conducted - you don't just quit after something goes wrong with one and say "Well, that's it I guess. We must never do this again because one experiment was wrong."

Also, although I agree the fraud does make all his findings and conclusions suspect, it doesn't necessarily mean they are - I would not be surprised if he got some accurate and reliable data, just chance alone could account for that - unfortunately, it is likely lost amongst all the corrupted data, if it exists at all.

It is not just Rhine though, the whole field died after 30 years with out results and the honesty of many of these labs being called into question.

[John A Spera]

The hard science proof that most seek is not attainable as I understand it.

Quote

What I'm wondering is if anyone is familiar with Rhine and his work and general current thoughts on the subject(s), as well as his divisions above, and the expanded one as well. Does his initial division and subdivisions of each of these seem to make sense, and represent most common alleged psychic abilities? Is there still room for Rhine and his attempt at a "hard science" approach to validate psi, including probability studies and mathematics, or is this something that simply can't be quantified or qualified for that matter?

The testing results for quantum studies are influenced my the desires and beliefs of those doing these studies. Their intent has energy that affects the quantum realm.

The division and subdivisions that were listed are ok as a starting point. We do not yet know enough about the subject to identify these things as I understand them.

John

[Graveyard Hound]

Dr. Rhine was truly a remarkable man and I was fortunate to have friends to be involved in his later studies when a center was set up off campus to continue the studies. He brought some credit to the field that was pretty much shot up to holes up to him arrival. Having attended a university from DUKE, the options often presented themselves to get a course or two at DUKE dealing with Dr.Rhine's work. Shame we lack the likes of him and too many that woulddn't meet up to his standards.

[Graveyard Hound]

Since one cannot get into their mental abilities, I'll pass on that topic.