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Atlantis


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#121    Agonaces of Susa

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:31 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2009 - 10:25 AM, said:

But Plato never even suggested Atlantis got covered in ice.
FYI ice is water.

"... the Egyptians ... concealed mysteries that were above the common herd under the veil of religious rites and hieroglyphic symbols." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694

#122    Agonaces of Susa

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:34 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 November 2009 - 10:22 AM, said:

Just what we don't need. Quacks and writers making up history.

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For this reason I read historians like Plato and not theologians like Darwin.

Edited by Agonaces of Susa, 17 November 2009 - 10:35 AM.

"... the Egyptians ... concealed mysteries that were above the common herd under the veil of religious rites and hieroglyphic symbols." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694

#123    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:37 AM

View PostAgonaces of Susa, on 17 November 2009 - 10:31 AM, said:

FYI ice is water.

LOL, really?

So the ancient Greeks went back to Antarctica/Atlantis to see what had happened to their enemy, and said: "No, it's gone, it went under." (all the while looking at a huge continent far above water, covered in ice). "You see, it's now a muddy sea here, where once was Atlantis" (banging with their wooden boats against ice bergs and freezing their b**** off)

Yep, that must be it: they were blind sailors.


#124    Agonaces of Susa

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:43 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2009 - 10:37 AM, said:

LOL, really?

So the ancient Greeks went back to Antarctica/Atlantis to see what had happened to their enemy, and said: "No, it's gone, it went under." (all the while looking at a huge continent far above water, covered in ice). "You see, it's now a muddy sea here, where once was Atlantis" (banging with their wooden boats against ice bergs and freezing their b**** off)

Yep, that must be it: they were blind sailors.
As I have already demonstrated, Antarctica was not always in a polar latitude.

Posted Image
Warm water coral in Antarctica.

"And immediately there is the problem of the climate. There were ancient climates that were very different from what they are today. If those corals grew where they were found, certainly the Earth was not travelling with the same elements of rotation and revolution which means not in the same orbit, not with the axis directed in the same position as it is today. If you don't believe it, try to cultivate corals on the North Pole." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966

Via The New York Times 1984:

    

Quote

FOR years a few imaginative authors have argued, based on 16th century maps, that the ice-covered continent of Antarctica was discovered and mapped by an ancient civilization, perhaps one from another planet. The latter proposition was dismissed by most geographers and historians as preposterous.

    Nevertheless, a careful comparison of information appearing on the maps with what is now known of the continent has led a leading geologist and polar specialist to propose that the outlines of Antarctica may, in fact, have been known long before Columbus reached America.

Sullivan, W., New Analysis Hints Ancient Explorers Mapped Antarctic, The New York Times, Sep 1984

Via Science News 1986:

    

Quote

The new find of roots and stems of wooden plants and of pollen in an area stretching about 1,300 kilometers along the Transantarctic Mountains means not only that the ice retreated but also that the climate was warm enough to support a shrublike beach forest. "The presence of the wood means that there was deglaciation on a major scale, with conditions radically different than they are today," says David Elliot, chief scientist of the recent National Science Foundation polar expedition, of which Webb's group was part. "This is a very significant find." Webb thinks the forest region a few million years ago must have resembled the present-day fjords of Chile and Norway.

    According to Webb, before the forest developed, the region was covered by a considerable amount of ice. So an important question is where the forest and pollen came from. "Had the forest been living there all the time, and are we overestimating the severity of the earlier glacial record?" he wonders.

Weisburd, S., A Forest Grows In Antarctica, Science News, Volume 129, Number 148, Mar 1986

Via Terra Antarctica Reports 1999:

    

Quote

The [Antarctic] ice sheet has resulted in one of the most extreme environments on the planet - mean annual temperature in the interior is between -50oC and -60oC - and yet in the distant past 200 million years ago the Antarctic was a continent of forests and plains with temperatures of around 10oC or more. Here we review evidence from the Antarctic continent of changes in climate that have taken place over the last 100 million years, a period that has seen the formation of a mountain range across the middle of the continent, and its change from an ice-free to an ice-covered state.

Barrett, P., Antarctic Climate History Over The Last 100 Million Years, Terra Antarctica Reports, Volume 3, Pages 53-72, 1999

Via Science Daily 2008:

    

Quote

ScienceDaily (July 29, 2008) — A snapshot of New Zealand’s climate 40 million years ago reveals a greenhouse Earth, with warmer seas and little or no ice in Antarctica, according to research recently published in the journal Geology.

    The study suggests that Antarctica at that time was yet to develop extensive ice sheets. ...

    “This is too warm to be the Antarctic water we know today,” said Dr Catherine (Cat) Burgess from Cardiff University and lead-author of the paper. “And the seawater chemistry shows there was little or no ice on the planet.”

Snapshot of Past Climate Reveals No Ice In Antarctica Millions of Years Ago, Science Daily, Jul 2008

Edited by Agonaces of Susa, 17 November 2009 - 10:47 AM.

"... the Egyptians ... concealed mysteries that were above the common herd under the veil of religious rites and hieroglyphic symbols." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694

#125    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:55 AM

View PostAgonaces of Susa, on 17 November 2009 - 10:43 AM, said:

As I have already demonstrated, Antarctica was not always in a polar latitude.




We are talking about 11,000 BP, not many millions of year ago.

So, when the Greeks or Egyptians went back to see what had happened to the Atlantians, the sea had not yet been frozen over?

OK, so then they should have seen Antarctica/Atlantis without ice (impossible, but ok...). In case you didn't know, without ice Antarctica would still be a continent above water,and clearly visible for sailors. In short: they would not have said Atlantis had disappeared beneath the waves.


EDIT:

And oh, I'd like to add: according to Plato's desription, Atlantis must have been sub/tropical, not something like Norway or Sweden (as according to your links Antarctica must once have resembled).

And fyi: even now corals can be found in the seas around Antarctica (as I think I already told you when you were here in a former incarnation, http://ci.nii.ac.jp/...110001078316/en   ).
.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2009 - 11:12 AM.


#126    Emma_Acid

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 12:11 PM

View PostAgonaces of Susa, on 17 November 2009 - 06:13 AM, said:

Antarctica is the only island continent on Earth that lies in the middle of "The True Ocean."

Antarctica is pretty inhospitable now, but 10,000 years ago during the ice age, it would have been utterly impossible for it to support a civilisation.

Quote

But even by conventional dates, Homo sapiens sapiens are millions of years old.

Anatomically modern humans first appear in the fossil record in Africa about 195,000 years ago

Ref

View PostAgonaces of Susa, on 17 November 2009 - 10:43 AM, said:

As I have already demonstrated, Antarctica was not always in a polar latitude.

Yeah, millions and millions of years ago. 10,000 year ago it was cold. Very very cold.


View PostQoais, on 17 November 2009 - 12:35 AM, said:

Of what?  Triremes?  No.  Plato said Atlantis sunk 9000 years before Solon.  So about 11,500 years ago.  
Atlantis was supposedly out in the Atlantic Ocean.
Atlantis supposedly had huge ships - Triremes - in her harbours before she sank, from all other countries bringing her goods.

WHAT other countries?  There weren't any other countries per se 11,500 years ago and there sure weren't any cultures with Triremes 11,500 years ago.  

To get to Atlantis or for them to get to the mainland, they would have had to have ships that could stand the constant battering of the ocean, back and forth, to do trade.  Where is the evidence for anyone, anywhere at the time, having such ships?

Blimey, we agree on something!!

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#127    questionmark

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 01:48 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2009 - 10:07 AM, said:

UM better removes that search tool, people keep ignoring what has already been discussed ad nauseum just to start a discussion all over again with the same fantastic arguments.
:tu:

they could replace it by a crap eraser.

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#128    Qoais

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 03:49 PM

Quote

And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.

FACING THE COUNTRY WHICH IS NOW CALLED THE REGION OF GADES.  How does a country face itself?

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

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#129    cryptobot30

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:03 PM

If Atlantis is ever discovered I wonder if the Submariner prince Namor will have his atlantians attack the human race or the surface people.That would not be fun at all.


#130    Agonaces of Susa

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:13 PM

View Postcryptobot30, on 17 November 2009 - 05:03 PM, said:

If Atlantis is ever discovered I wonder if the Submariner prince Namor will have his atlantians attack the human race or the surface people.That would not be fun at all.
When they start having guided tours of the pyramids in Antarctica, scientists will still refuse to believe in Atlantis.

Edited by Agonaces of Susa, 17 November 2009 - 05:19 PM.

"... the Egyptians ... concealed mysteries that were above the common herd under the veil of religious rites and hieroglyphic symbols." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694

#131    Agonaces of Susa

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:22 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 17 November 2009 - 12:11 PM, said:

Antarctica is pretty inhospitable now, but 10,000 years ago during the ice age, it would have been utterly impossible for it to support a civilisation.
Antarctica is in an ice age right now, let alone 10,000 years ago.  

It seems that 10,000 years ago Antarctica was almost ice free as any child can see on the Piri Reis map.

Quote

Anatomically modern humans first appear in the fossil record in Africa about 195,000 years ago

Ref
Humans are hundreds of millions of years old.  See my post above.

Edited by Agonaces of Susa, 17 November 2009 - 05:25 PM.

"... the Egyptians ... concealed mysteries that were above the common herd under the veil of religious rites and hieroglyphic symbols." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694

#132    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:33 PM

View PostAgonaces of Susa, on 17 November 2009 - 05:22 PM, said:

Antarctica is in an ice age right now, let alone 10,000 years ago.  

It seems that 10,000 years ago Antarctica was almost ice free as any child can see on the Piri Reis map.


Humans are hundreds of millions of years old.  See my post above.

Any child can see... you keep repeating that. OK, I go along with that: you can make a child believe in the bogeyman, and Santaclaus.

Now what does that prove, eh., 'any child can see'? That you can make a child believe almost anything you want.

Btw, the Piri Reis chart does NOT depict an ice free Antarctica+ you donīt know, you just gobbled up what you read on some loony sites. The  bottom side of the map doesnīt resemble an ice free Antarctica

Prove it, and donīt keep repeating yourself with your īany child can see...  YOU come up with it, now YOU prove it.

And I wonīt even go into your Creationist fantasy about how old humans are...


#133    questionmark

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:39 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2009 - 05:33 PM, said:

Any child can see... you keep repeating that. OK, I go along with that: you can make a child believe in the bogeyman, and Santaclaus.

Now what does that prove, eh., 'any child can see'? That you can make a child believe almost anything you want.

Btw, the Piri Reis chart does NOT depict an ice free Antarctica+ you donīt know, you just gobbled up what you read on some loony sites. The  bottom side of the map doesnīt resemble an ice free Antarctica

Prove it, and donīt keep repeating yourself with your īany child can see...  YOU come up with it, now YOU prove it.

And I wonīt even go into your Creationist fantasy about how old humans are...

This is a lost case so I would save my breath for a real discussion if I were you.

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#134    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:39 PM

View PostAgonaces of Susa, on 17 November 2009 - 05:13 PM, said:

When they start having guided tours of the pyramids in Antarctica, scientists will still refuse to believe in Atlantis.

If that ever happens, I will send you 200 dollars.

Think for a second man.... even IF there was a civilization there, what would be left now, after ice sheets and glaciers miles thick moved over the rocky underground for millenia? Have you ever seen those fjords in Norway? Do you even know why they are shaped like that?


#135    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:46 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 17 November 2009 - 05:39 PM, said:

This is a lost case so I would save my breath for a real discussion if I were you.

No way. He is 17 years old (according to his profile- and I think he´s the same person who started this thread), and I was that age, once.

And I also loved those stories, those spectacular theories, when I was his age.  I know how he feels.

To him we are just stubborn old farts, too rusted to accept a new theory.

No, many of us wanted to believe these same theories, but then, out of curiosity, we started to check for OURSELVES, and found out that however stunning those theories were, they were based on faulty information, a distorting of facts, and lots of wishfull thinking.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2009 - 05:52 PM.





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