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Atlantis


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#2041    docyabut2

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:57 AM

Oh gee I can just see the mammoths running around the palaces, over the bridges and the towers with gates:):):)


#2042    Abramelin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:00 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 10 February 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Oh gee I can just see the mammoths running around the palaces, over the bridges and the towers with gates:) :) :)

Well, at least Martin's theory explained how African elephants could have been present in Atlantis.
But you didn't read it, right?


#2043    Abramelin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:13 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 09 February 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

He had a theory Abe, it just wasn't supported by the analysis of core samples* taken in the North Atlantic by the Deep Sea Drilling Project (DSDP), Ocean Drilling Program  (ODP) or the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program (IODP). Of course anyone is free to have a look themselves and 'try' to prove Atlantis existed in the North Atlantic. To whomever, good luck with that. :w00t:

http://www.deepseadrilling.org/

* - Earliest dates of which go back to well before we (Homo Sapiens) ever existed.


Which one of the many papers from that link should I read? I clicked on a couple of links and they were all about the Gulf of Mexico.


#2044    Abramelin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:32 AM

Everdred, I'll reply to your post later.


#2045    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:56 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 February 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Which one of the many papers from that link should I read? I clicked on a couple of links and they were all about the Gulf of Mexico.

Volume 82 is of particular relevance. Be forewarned though these are long, exceedingly detailed and were not written for laymen. They can be a pain to get through but the bottom line is that they in no way, shape or form substantiate such a fantasy as an island (such as claimed of Atlantis) having ever existed in or around the Mid-Atlantic Ridge at any point in the last several million years. Such an island could not disappear beneath the waves without leaving an imprint on the geological record, yet no such imprint exists. The same can be said for the various Volumes that detail other core samples from between the MAR going in the direction of the Straits of Gibraltar. None of those support anything resembling Atlantis either.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2046    docyabut2

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:26 PM

:)Ok

Edited by docyabut2, 10 February 2013 - 01:19 PM.


#2047    Mario Dantas

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:13 PM

Hello,

I will throw my 2p into Carl Martin's theory on Atlantis. We had briefly discussed, back in 2009, some aspects of my theory and his (Carl Martin), but i regret i did not have the discernment to profit more from his conversations. Atlantic researchers are often a selfish self-centered group, thus not really discussing issues linked with the Atlantis theme, but rather trying to prevail one's own ideas, in detriment of the plain dialog and change of information, towards the discovery (or not) of Atlantis itself. His suspicions are very similar to mine, and others, regarding many aspects on the north Atlantic ocean floor and Atlantis. I had already stated about the fact that continental vestiges were found amidst young oceanic floor, submerged beneath thousands of meters below sea level. Those sediments, as he rightly points out, are only found within shallow waters. What, when, why and how?

His analyses on the Azores Gibraltar region are right on the spot, there must be something anomalous regarding the region in front of Gibraltar. The geoid, bathymetric or topography maps confirm it...

Posted Image


Quote


Quote

Quote from: Mario Dantas on February 05, 2009, 03:58:55 am
Since i have a theory in which Greenland was Atlantis and the reason why it isn't in front of the straight of Gibraltar anymore is that it floated across a momentarily molten Atlantic floor in the Arctic direction where it is stationed today, i will drop in a few lines to this open discussion...

The Azores Plateau along with the Cape Verde Islands Canary Islands and the rest of the Macaronesia are remnants of this large Island (the largest Island in the World) according to Critias.

My view of what happened is not necessarily contradicting your views but surely is a different approach. You must know that the Lithosphere is less dense than the Asthenosphere and therefore will float (as it is already today). There are spots in the Atlantic with only 5 km thickness (MAR) which could in fact become molten in one blink of an eye and permit the necessary "buoyancy" for a continental body to dislocate faster than today's spreading rate.

Mario, your statement that your view is "surely a different approach," is a vast understatement.

For me, personally, I have several hurdles of disbelief to overcome with your idea. I've learned, though (regrettably only in recent years), that I cannot depend on my experience and learning alone in judging someone else's input. I look forward to your discussion, data and references.

I'm curious how you would explain the past molten state in light of the current texture and features of the Atlantic Ocean floor, some of which are more than a hundred million years old. I'm curious how you would explain the lack of "tread marks" left by Greenland's passing from the Gibraltar region to its current location. If plate tectonics has any validity, and by my estimation, it is close to a geological truth, how would you explain Greenland getting past the boundaries and "trading allegiances" (becoming a North American, instead of a hybrid Afro-Eurasian)?

And I'm not familiar with your reference in Critias to "the largest Island in the World." By one definition of the word island, Australia might be the largest island in the world. Heck, if we take island to mean land surrounded by a body of water, then the largest would be Afro-Eurasia. Greenland is certainly the largest island by modern usage of the word, but I await your input on the Critias reference. Perhaps I'm interpreting some passage differently.

Ever a student, and imperfectly humble, I await your further input.

LoneStar77
(Carl Martin)
www.AncientSuns.com
http://atlantisonlin...ic,280.105.html

I have to confess that, back in 2009, at AtlantisOnline, my research had not reached the level of a "thought experiment", although i always knew i had to use some kind of "artifact" to explain what i believe happened to Atlantis. I will try to answer Carl's wise "skepticism"...

Firstly, since there isn't a proper event chronology involved in the experiment, there will not be taken under consideration whether a certain event is out of any specific geologic "scope". Most important orogenic event on earth might be co related with an impact on earth, at end of the Pleistocene.

The "tread marks" exist, they are just concealed in the form of the northern MAR (Mid Atlantic Ridge), nearby seamounts and archipelagos. The earth geoid map (in the Atlantic) clearly show that, unlike the rest of the MAR (longest mountain range in the world), the section/region exactly in front of Gibraltar, is the most powerful gravitational anomaly region on the planet, furthermore its shape have the angles and proportions as Greenland, i ask why?

Posted Image

Plate tectonics cannot exclude the possibility of plates moving faster than what is actually known today, e.g. at a 200km/h rate. There is nothing impeaching a solid buoyant "vessel" from move fast across a denser fluid, although the obvious lack of evidence may be justly remarked.

I think Greenland "traveled" alone towards the north pole, through a semi molten ocean floor temporarly in liquefaction by means of a meteoric impact in the Indian ocean, as all geoid maps are probably attesting.

In short, Greenland might have moved, within the following latitudes, influencing the American, Eurasian and African continental borders: A (Cape Verde) to G (Greenland) while passing through B (Iberia, Atlas), C (Appalachians), D (MAR), E (Scandinavia) and F (Canada).

Regarding Atlantis being the largest island in the world, it is not explicitly said in Plato, but it should at least be considered that Atlantis is considered the largest island in the Atlantic ocean... was there any other island larger than Atlantis, in the Atlantic ocean? Greenland is the largest island in the Atlantic...

Posted Image

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Edited by Mario Dantas, 10 February 2013 - 11:24 PM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#2048    Abramelin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:29 PM

This was about ROD Martin's theory, not Carl Martin's.


#2049    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 10 February 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Volume 82 is of particular relevance. Be forewarned though these are long, exceedingly detailed and were not written for laymen. They can be a pain to get through but the bottom line is that they in no way, shape or form substantiate such a fantasy as an island (such as claimed of Atlantis) having ever existed in or around the Mid-Atlantic Ridge at any point in the last several million years. Such an island could not disappear beneath the waves without leaving an imprint on the geological record, yet no such imprint exists. The same can be said for the various Volumes that detail other core samples from between the MAR going in the direction of the Straits of Gibraltar. None of those support anything resembling Atlantis either.

cormac

If you want a more in-depth list of PDF's to read concerning the MAR and Azores area, these would be the ones. Warning: This entails 259 Megabytes of reading material so will take a considerable amount of time to do so.

Attached File  PDF's dealing with the MAR.jpg   44.65K   4 downloads

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2050    Abramelin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:56 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 10 February 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

If you want a more in-depth list of PDF's to read concerning the MAR and Azores area, these would be the ones. Warning: This entails 259 Megabytes of reading material so will take a considerable amount of time to do so.

Attachment PDF's dealing with the MAR.jpg

cormac

I already searched the pdfs for several hours, lol.

Can't you just copy and paste something?

,

Edited by Abramelin, 10 February 2013 - 11:57 PM.


#2051    cormac mac airt

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:20 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I already searched the pdfs for several hours, lol.

Can't you just copy and paste something?

,



Quote

5.1. Construction of the Azores Plateau
The Azores platform is a shallow domain
bounded by bathymetric steps, more than 1.5 km
high, especially well marked on the America plate,
and has an oldest age of 20 Myr (chron 6). The
platform extends to ~42N to the north and to
~35 50N to the south. The step in the northern
part of the platform is located on oceanic crust
dated at about 10 Ma (chron 5), and in the southern
part at about 4 Ma (chron 3) (Figure 3a).


And


Quote

Both ridges are associated with MBA
lows (Figure 3b) and therefore probably underlain
by a thick crust (Figure 4c). The lowest MBA values,
and thus the thickest crust, are located within the
Azores archipelago itself, with a maximum MBA
contrast of about 100 mGal between the ridges and
adjacent seafloor at the latitudes of Princess Alice
Bank [Cannat et al., 1999; Escartin et al., 2001] or
Pico and Faial islands [Luis et al., 1998]. The MBA
contrast on the western major ridges reaches
80 mGal. Luis et al. [1998] and Cannat et al.
[1999] consider that these values in MBA correspond
to a crustal thickness of 10–14 km, to be
compared to the 6–7 km of the ‘‘normal’’ oceanic
crust.
Their results are confirmed by this study
(Figure 4c). Along the MAR axis section which cuts
across the Azores platform, Detrick et al. [1995]
have observed a maximum crustal thickness of 9–
10 km for the longest segment centered on 39N.

http://www.kharsag.n.../GenteG3_03.pdf

Just one example of many things that stand out as not supporting Atlantis in the Azores is the above, which shows a minimum crustal age of 4 million years with the crust around the Azores Plateau approximately 50% thicker (or more) than regular oceanic crust and all in a geologically active area that has been so for most of the last 85 - 90 million years. This doesn't support the belief that an area the size of Atlantis (which according to Plato was approximately the size of the Aegean Sea) either existed above sea level or was submerged, both within the timeframe of modern humans.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 11 February 2013 - 01:23 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2052    Abramelin

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:44 AM

Does the age and thickness of the crust in the Azores area contradict the process as described by Rod Martin?

It could still be as thick and old, even when it sunk deeper to eventually end up where it is now?


#2053    Abramelin

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostEverdred, on 10 February 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Let me explain it more clearly.  Glaciers form only on land.  When they recede, the rebound occurs where they were, and a subsequent sinking results in areas attached to that landmass (so England goes down when Scotland goes up, Southern Scandinavia goes down when Northern Scandinavia goes up, U.S. goes down when Canada goes up, etc.).  Atlantis, as an island, was not attached to any glaciated landmasses, and so would experience no effect.  The North Atlantic would have had floating ice, but this would have had no effect on the underlying oceanic crust, and thus no rebound would occur.  


"U.S. goes down when Canada goes up"
"Atlantis, as an island, was not attached to any glaciated landmasses, and so would experience no effect."

The Azores plateau, or better, the area Rod Martin suggested could once have been Atlantis, wasn't an isolated piece of continental shelf (I think it's called a 'craton'??), it was stretched out over part of the North American plate, the European plate, and the African plate, so whatever happened in both North America and Northern Europe could have an effect on that area.

And the plateau is on the same latitude as the US:

Posted Image

Martin's argument is that it would have felt the effect of both plates when the area was already unstable.


Quote

The problem with his conception was that he didn't picture the break up of Pangaea properly.  If you look at my link, you'll note that the reconstruction has Iberia and North Africa kinda stuck together--initially these would be part of the same plate, but the Mid-Atlantic ridge then started in the South, causing eastward forces on Africa, while a ridge between Africa and Antarctica started pushing Africa northward.  This causes a sort of rotation of Africa and the shrinking of the Tethys sea, which eventually becomes the Mediterranean.  And after tens of millions of years the Mid-Atlantic Ridge split northward and started to divide Europe from North America, which would have caused the faulting between Europe and Africa.  So basically there isn't a collision of the African and Eurasian plates in the western portion, which means there's no compression to create his Atlantis.

Sorry, I haven't found your link.

But I have seen a number of only slightly different representations of the split-up of Pangea, several of them having Iberia and North Africa separated from very early on, or beter: touching eachother, but not part of the same plate. And first you see Africa rotating anti-clockwise, and then pushing northward.

Maybe you could repost that link?

This animation - don't know if it's according to the latest findings - appears to contradict you:





.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 February 2013 - 10:03 AM.


#2054    Mario Dantas

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 February 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

This was about ROD Martin's theory, not Carl Martin's.

Abramelin,

Maybe they are twins? or even a "look-alike" perhaps? This is becoming ridi(culous)!

Rod Martin
http://www.missionat...-martin-bio.php

Carl Martin
http://www.carlmartin.net/

You should always think first, before you move (talk). Thanks for trying to make me look like a fool, and ignoring the obvious...


I hope there is the opportunity to openly discuss this subject in equal conditions as everyone here. I respect everybody, at all times. Why do you often try to diminish others?

“I don't think..." then you shouldn't talk, said the Hatter.”
Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Edited by Mario Dantas, 11 February 2013 - 11:00 AM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#2055    Abramelin

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

I wasn't trying to make you look like a fool, I just thought you had made a mistake.

OK, so the guy changed his first name, lol.

But even though Martin's theory will be/is proven wrong, it is still a quite sane theory. Anyway,better than I have read before, and one that tries to explain Plato's story using his description of Atlantis without changing it.

You, on the other hand, still need to explain how Greenland could 'plow through' the Mid-Atlantic Ridge without changing shape.

I imagine if a tectonic event like you describe ever happened, we wouldn't be here discussing it.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 February 2013 - 12:32 PM.





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