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Atlantis


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#2146    Harte

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:12 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

If you look at this map you will see that it is entirely plausable that a north sea sea based culture could invade north africa, spain, italy, greece++

http://en.wikipedia....g_Expansion.svg

Changing the argument, are we?

Who here has said it is impossible to sail from the North Sea to the Med.?

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#2147    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:18 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:



Reading comprehension problems, huh? Must be, since I said:



Meaning that the original story of Atlantis has nothing to do with the North Sea. Plato gave Atlantis a specific location in his tales, which obviously was nowhere near the North Sea.

And just in case you're confused "Atlantis" is not a catch-all phrase for every possible place of prehistoric habitation by humans. It's a specific name of a specific place in a tale originally written by Plato.

cormac

I strongly disagree. Platons atlantis could have been part of a larger atlantis kingdom, which was based in the atlantic sea and nortth sea.

That this is a specific place with a specific name that only could be used with platon is your opinion. Other part of the world could have different names of the same place, and also have different level of knowledge about this ancient sivilisation.

If existed there would have existed several similar tales, which it does, which is a good sign that it once existed. But they themself and others might have used a different name.

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 04:25 AM.


#2148    docyabut2

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:21 AM

Gee anybody can see that Jowett was n`t right in the translations by saying

To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world,


When Gades was not named Gades until the Romans,  way after Palto  :)

Edited by docyabut2, 14 April 2013 - 04:23 AM.


#2149    Harte

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:22 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 April 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Gades was named way after Plato.


Around 500 BC, the city fell under the sway of Carthage. Cadiz became a base of operations for Hannibal's[9] conquest of southern Iberia. However, in 206 BC, the city fell to Roman forces under Scipio Africanus. The people of Cadiz welcomed the victors. Under the Romans, the city's Greek name was modified to Gades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gades
That was the Roman conquest of the area.

The Romans knew it as Gades long before that.

Plato's statement was a reflection of the times.  The Romans had more dealings with Gadeira than the Greeks.  Hence, his statement about how it was "now called the region of Gades in that part of the world."

In that part of the world, but not around here in Greece.

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#2150    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:26 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

I strongly disagree. Platons atlantis could have been part of a larger atlantis kingdom, which was based in the atlantic sea and nortth sea.

That this is a specific place with a specific name is that only could be used with platon is your opinion. Other part of the world could have different names of the same place, and also have different level of knowledge about this ancient sivilisation.

If existed there would have existed several similar tales, which it does, which is a good sign that it once existed. But they themself and others might have used a different name.

So you wish to play "Let's pretend"? Okay, now I know not to take you seriously. Thanks.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2151    docyabut2

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:30 AM

Sorry Harte that does `nt make sense, a country is not going to renamed a city until they conquered it.:)


#2152    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:55 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:



So you wish to play "Let's pretend"? Okay, now I know not to take you seriously. Thanks.

cormac

I have never taken you seriously anyway. U have no arguments either, only states that a 10 000 year old story must be exactly as it says, that nothing has been lost. For then after dismissing it as totaly unlikely. Is it so hard to belive that old stories can be partly correct, in the search for thecorrect location?


Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 04:55 AM.


#2153    Harte

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:02 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 April 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Sorry Harte that does `nt make sense, a country is not going to renamed a city until they conquered it. :)

Which, I suppose, is why we in the English-speaking crowd refer to Germany as "Germany" and not Deutschland?

In Spanish, it's Alemania.

The above prove that Spain, Mexico, and most of South America, are conquerors of Gemany, I suppose.

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#2154    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:13 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

I have never taken you seriously anyway. U have no arguments either, only states that a 10 000 year old story must be exactly as it says, that nothing has been lost. For then after dismissing it as totaly unlikely. Is it so hard to belive that old stories can be partly correct, in the search for thecorrect location?

There is no 10,000 year old story. It's a 2300 +/- year old story written by Plato.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2155    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:22 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:



There is no 10,000 year old story. It's a 2300 +/- year old story written by Plato.

cormac

Thats your opinion. Me an many others disagree. If the story is true or partly true it is a 11 000year old story, written down 2300 years ago


#2156    Harte

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:30 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Thats your opinion. Me an many others disagree. If the story is true or partly true it is a 11 000year old story, written down 2300 years ago
With not a whit of evidence that the story existed prior to circa 2350 years ago.

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#2157    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostHarte, on 14 April 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:


With not a whit of evidence that the story existed prior to circa 2350 years ago.

Harte


Not a whit of evidence.. Funny man:)

What we discussed was the level of acuracy you can expect from a second hand orally told from 11 000 year ago.

I know that you and others here have an agenda, at that is not to help truth seekers find the truth, or to find the truth for yourself. Rather to sabotage and destroy every constructive debate and exchange of information on any subject. U dont fool me;)

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 06:19 AM.


#2158    Abramelin

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:01 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Thats your opinion. Me an many others disagree. If the story is true or partly true it is a 11 000year old story, written down 2300 years ago

You have any proof of that claim?


#2159    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:38 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 April 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:



You have any proof of that claim?

Plato states it himself, pretty good proof/indication in my eyes. It should at least not be ruled out. The time period is a time in our human coastal history we know very little about, which leaves much yet to be discovered. But this takes a long time and is ekspensive as all the evidence lies underwater.


The point is that stories can change over time and at least over 11000 years (if his own statements on that matter is correct) small words and translations can change the meaning of text quite drastically.

To look for a place that 100 percent is identical to platons story of atlantis is folish. What is even more folish is to totally dismiss the the whole atlantis story or an atlantis like civilisation, because we dont have hard evidence which 100 percent match all of platons atlantis story.

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 07:43 AM.


#2160    Abramelin

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Plato states it himself, pretty good proof/indication in my eyes. It should at least not be ruled out. The time period is a time in our human history we know very little about, which leaves much yet to be discovered. But this takes a long time and is ekspensive as all the evidence lies underwater.


The point is that stories can change over time and at least over 11000 years (if his own statements on that matter is correct) small words and translations can change the meaning of text quite drastically.

To look for a place that 100 percent is identical to platons story of atlantis is folish. What is even more folish is to totally dismiss the the atlantis story, because we dont have hard evidence which 100 percent match all of platons atlantis story. That can change quite fast. As history shows.

Stories can change a lot over a long period of time, and thus also the dates mentioned in these stories.

So even if Plato didn't make it all up, then still that date of 9600 BCE may be a bit of an exaggeration.





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