[kiddglock]

lookingfortruth, on 23 October 2009 - 06:32 PM, said:

I really think if ghost sightings and demons were real they'd have solid evidence by now. they've had plenty of time haven't they?

You can't measure the un-physical with the physical. Science is about measurement. There is plenty of "evidence" around. Things which are not physical simply don't leave physical evidence.

[Paranormalcy]

I agree overall, though there is undoubtedly a physical aspect as well, because we live in a subjective personal perceptive world, we are forced to have faith and trust in what our senses tell us the world is like and how it works, in our experience.

One story that comes to mind about this point is that there are some people that have certain conditions or disorders where, when water is poured into an ear (hitting a certain lobe), their condition ceases until the ear dries out a while later. Common is the "alien hand" syndrome, where people will look at their own arm and if asked if it is theirs, they'll say something like "no, it's my grandfather's" or even "well you know that is your arm, doctor".

The other is a man who was at a checkup or dentist (can't remember) and apparently the doctor hit some nerve or lobe because suddenly the man was seeing "ghosts" and spirits all over in the office, in bright light - flying around, walking, doing other things. Water in the ear and all that vanished.

Our brain, our mind, the way our body is tied together, physically, neurologically, psychologically, is a phenomena in itself and it is no wonder there are so many potential anomalies that we can encounter with just our own bodies, let alone external paranormal events.

[sinewave]

kiddglock, on 24 October 2009 - 01:50 AM, said:

You can't measure the un-physical with the physical. Science is about measurement. There is plenty of "evidence" around. Things which are not physical simply don't leave physical evidence.

I submit that unphysical = unreal. Everything in nature is physical be it energy, particle, wave, or the states of matter.

[Wookietim]

lookingfortruth, on 23 October 2009 - 07:32 PM, said:

I really think if ghost sightings and demons were real they'd have solid evidence by now. they've had plenty of time haven't they?

Perhaps... Of course, how long did it take to have solid evidence (In the form of pictures recently published) that the structure of atoms and molecules are what was theorized for so long? (PS - Answer is almost 200 years of working with that particular theory)

And UFO/Ghosts are a different type of problem - we don't yet have a real theory as to what we are trying to prove yet. After all, gather a set of 100 researchers into a room and you will have at least 90 different theories as to what they are researching. Maybe we do have solid proof - if we ask the right question.

[sinewave]

Wookietim, on 26 October 2009 - 02:24 PM, said:

Perhaps... Of course, how long did it take to have solid evidence (In the form of pictures recently published) that the structure of atoms and molecules are what was theorized for so long? (PS - Answer is almost 200 years of working with that particular theory)

And UFO/Ghosts are a different type of problem - we don't yet have a real theory as to what we are trying to prove yet. After all, gather a set of 100 researchers into a room and you will have at least 90 different theories as to what they are researching. Maybe we do have solid proof - if we ask the right question.

Atomic structure was predicted using Newtonian physics. Knowing the number and magnitude of charges makes calculating the resulting bonding angles pretty easy. Once the bonding angles are worked out you have the basic structure. The recent work done by IBM just confirmed the theory. Ghosts and their paranormal brethren have no analogous supporting science so the analogy does not hold.

[Jerry Only]

sinewave, on 26 October 2009 - 12:20 PM, said:

I submit that unphysical = unreal. Everything in nature is physical be it energy, particle, wave, or the states of matter.

Aha! I knew love wasn't real!

[Hara]

I myself, have to just put my input on this. energy is in everything, well everything living. Either a tree or person, it has energy. I believe it has to go somewhere, it doesnt just die. That is what Ghost mainly are left over energy from the person

[Wookietim]

sinewave, on 27 October 2009 - 12:13 AM, said:

Atomic structure was predicted using Newtonian physics. Knowing the number and magnitude of charges makes calculating the resulting bonding angles pretty easy. Once the bonding angles are worked out you have the basic structure. The recent work done by IBM just confirmed the theory. Ghosts and their paranormal brethren have no analogous supporting science so the analogy does not hold.

I was grasping at something to use as an example... But I agree with you (Except on the calculating the bonding angles being pretty easy - maybe for you...).

But at the same time, the last half of your post actually reinforces what I tried to say before - we don't have any solid theories about the paranormal. So expecting proof that supports those theories is kind of counter-productive right now... One needs to start at the beginning and develop a theory before we try to prove (or even add weight to) that theory...

[sinewave]

Wookietim, on 27 October 2009 - 02:50 PM, said:

But at the same time, the last half of your post actually reinforces what I tried to say before - we don't have any solid theories about the paranormal. So expecting proof that supports those theories is kind of counter-productive right now... One needs to start at the beginning and develop a theory before we try to prove (or even add weight to) that theory...

Yes, exactly right and very well stated my friend. I have tried to say as much in entire paragraphs and you have done it in a single line. I am humbled by your efficiency. Nice work.

This post has been edited by sinewave: 27 October 2009 - 07:56 PM

[GeetarAdam]

Oh, Garsh! Big can of worms. To quote Sir Arthur Eddington: "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we CAN imagine."

Were I not so tired, I could ramble endlessly on the topic, but this time I'll just call it a wrap with that.

[kiddglock]

sinewave, on 26 October 2009 - 02:20 PM, said:

I submit that unphysical = unreal. Everything in nature is physical be it energy, particle, wave, or the states of matter.

Thoughts are physical? Emotions? If it's physical, can you measure it?

[sinewave]

kiddglock, on 28 October 2009 - 12:56 AM, said:

Thoughts are physical? Emotions? If it's physical, can you measure it?

Sure, why not? There are measurable changes to the central nervous system as it functions. Can a change in activity be identified as thought? Perhaps. There are those who say they can be. Can emotions be detected and identified? Likewise there is evidence that emotions are associated with specific areas of the brain and have unique electrical signatures.

[kiddglock]

sinewave, on 28 October 2009 - 01:54 AM, said:

Sure, why not? There are measurable changes to the central nervous system as it functions. Can a change in activity be identified as thought? Perhaps. There are those who say they can be. Can emotions be detected and identified? Likewise there is evidence that emotions are associated with specific areas of the brain and have unique electrical signatures.

How do you measure them right now though? Not "perhaps" or "in the future". How can they be quantified in order to measure them? If you can't measure them, how do they exist, by your own psychology?

[Jerry Only]

kiddglock, on 28 October 2009 - 11:18 PM, said:

How do you measure them right now though? Not "perhaps" or "in the future". How can they be quantified in order to measure them? If you can't measure them, how do they exist, by your own psychology?

I predict someday we will be able to map the entire brain and find exactly what electrical stimulation in what part of the brain creates every possible thought we could ever have. Scientists... they're no fun! At least let us feel our thoughts are our choice!

[Wookietim]

kiddglock, on 24 October 2009 - 02:50 AM, said:

You can't measure the un-physical with the physical. Science is about measurement. There is plenty of "evidence" around. Things which are not physical simply don't leave physical evidence.

What do you mean by "Un-Physical"?

If something interacts with our reality then it has a basis in our reality. Therefore it leaves traces.

It it does not interact with our reality, it doesn't leave physical traces - but also doesn't exist as far as this universe is concerned.

Therefore, if anything in this field has any existence then it has to interact with our reality - and therefore leaves traces of it's interaction.