[mataroki]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 November 2009 - 09:22 AM, said:

WOW...................based on your defence..you have yet to disprove it

i hate arguments like this,no one ever wins
but i have to side with b. mom on this one,i think free will is there i means, for example,i chose to write this reply! and i can choose weather or not what i wanna eat later,and on the vulger side,i can choose who i want to dispise or like :3

so go free will!

[mataroki]

maximaldecimal, on 11 November 2009 - 02:15 PM, said:

To use the example. I like sipicy food, but I also have ulcers. There is a weighing of possibility anytime I pick up a menue and weigh the options of acidity and flavor. Having a choice between this variant factors requires a discernment of whim and wisdom so there are multiple causal chains leading to the action and multiple possible outcomes within the moment of decision. This choice could be concieved of as free will, a choice of possible actions within a range of given inlfluences.

but then when you think about it,its still your free choice weather or not to eat that spicy food,ulcer or no ulcer. i mean,sure,it could have extreme consequences,ut its still ur choice weather or not to eat it or not ^^

[Beckys_Mom]

mataroki, on 12 November 2009 - 07:34 PM, said:

i hate arguments like this,no one ever wins
but i have to side with b. mom on this one,i think free will is there i means, for example,i chose to write this reply! and i can choose weather or not what i wanna eat later,and on the vulger side,i can choose who i want to dispise or like :3

so go free will!

Thanks


But remeber free will is not the same as quickly making a simple choice...not the exact same no, for if it were it would be called - free choice and not free will <---thats what confusing a lot on here


Free will is something you have set in your own nature...something to have a long desire for and even live your life in a certain way...<----someone trying to force you out of that way...they are forcing you to go against your free will

This post has been edited by Beckys_Mom: 12 November 2009 - 08:04 PM

[maximaldecimal]

mataroki, on 12 November 2009 - 01:36 PM, said:

but then when you think about it,its still your free choice weather or not to eat that spicy food,ulcer or no ulcer. i mean,sure,it could have extreme consequences,ut its still ur choice weather or not to eat it or not ^^

I would agree with you there.

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 November 2009 - 09:27 AM, said:

You don't seem to be grasping it right at all................ For if your main desire is to live a long life.and you dont wish to die....then if held at gunpoint for your cash.....you would know money comes and money goes...life is just once...then you would hand your cash over for your life to be spared ...against your free will <-------------I figure you of all people who claims to be a critical and free thinker...would find the logic in that at least...oh well

I have thoroughly to my satisfaction based on available evidence have concluded thus far that there is no such thing as of ones free will... yet I am open to changing my mind, thus far I see no reason to....

but if anyone could bring a counter it would be you Sis...


Sis, If I truly had free will why would I want to be presented with such a choice let alone choose this as a choice .... and then have to be convinced this is free will and great for me...........Either shoot me or hand over my money or my body to be assaulted, raped to live with the trauma the rest of my life .I would not call this a choice of any kind or even a remote possibility of this being a fair choice ...

This post has been edited by S♥ ♥ ♥: 12 November 2009 - 11:22 PM

[Beckys_Mom]

S♥ ♥ ♥, on 12 November 2009 - 11:21 PM, said:

I have thoroughly to my satisfaction based on available evidence have concluded thus far that there is no such thing as of ones free will... yet I am open to changing my mind, thus far I see no reason to....

but if anyone could bring a counter it would be you Sis...


Sis, If I truly had free will why would I want to be presented with such a choice let alone choose this as a choice .... and then have to be convinced this is free will and great for me...........Either shoot me or hand over my money or my body to be assaulted, raped to live with the trauma the rest of my life .I would not call this a choice of any kind or even a remote possibility of this being a fair choice ...

You wouldnt want to be presented with any such threat...in fact, you want to live your life free as possible with no trouble...hey don't we all? So its your free will to live how you chose...its most certainly not a religious thing, this is why I don't understand why the religious are all voting yes we have free will, for it looks to me like they see it as the so called - > Freedom of choice..ya know the one where if you chose to follow god then good, and if not then they call it freedom of choice <---so NOT free will..heck it aint even free choice LOL.

Actually if god said you have free will do as your heart desires and you wont get punished,...then you do indeed have it.........but if god tried to push you to worship him or else suffer ...that mans god would be pushing you against your free will...for your free will (your heart) tells you that you have a right to be free to chose not to follow.....darn it I sure hope you get what I am trying to say

People on this thread ,...most skeptics and religious tend to view free will like the free choice thing...thats not it at all...it not as simple as making a choice

I used the gay sex thing a few pages back.....I figured that was an excellent example...and it was lol.... for IE if you are dead straight and someone was trying to force you to have gay sex.that means they are trying to force you to go against your free will...for its your free will to be straight,, it's in your nature, its who you are...so having gay sex is not who you are and not somehting you normally would chose to do

I love the choice I made to be a mother...I adopted it and now it lays in my heart..my nature...if anyone tried to get me to give her up, it would be against my free will...for my free will wants to keep her and remain a mom<-----------now i can come up with quick choices and choose to beat the living snot out of them for suggesting me to give her up LOL but thats just me fighting for my freedom

I have done what I can to explain it...but free will is so not a religious thing..never was..its a thing I believe each person has

And then you have political correctness...then your free will and choices to speak out are limited..

[tinieblas]

good quote from an old time favourite game of mine on this subject;

"Given the choice - whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire, or to challenge the Fates for another throw, a better throw against one's destiny - what was a king to do? ....But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars. "

or

"Our futures are predestined.... foretold mine a millennium ago. We each play out the parts fate has written for us. We are compelled ineluctably down pre-ordained paths. Free will... is an illusion."

so maybe it is and we're just too human to admit it? Although I don't believe in a complete lack of free will, just that at certain times, things are supposed to happen a certain way and nothing you can do will change them....I've had moments in my life like this, no matter how hard I fight to change the inevitable, it happens anyway.

[Nik Xues]

Answer: All of the Above

We have free will as the Act of Survival is the very act of forcing our will upon the universe.
Now consider this there are how many lifeforms doing the same in a sense we are but a drop in an ocean.
Tell me how much influence can we have on the ocean not much is it in fact it seems as though the ocean controls us.
but then again a single drop of black can turn a whole ocean of white into grey.

[Mr Walker]

S♥ ♥ ♥, on 13 November 2009 - 03:49 AM, said:

staying with my son analogy, I am not free to do as I , there are imposed consequences, so it is not free will...


either or is not free...


MW, this is the beauty of this free will illusion its persistent..

If I am being held by gunpoint and given a choice either my life or my wallet, my free will choice has been , the way it would be free is if I said no, I think I'll just leave now with my life and my wallet and go on my way with no repercussions then I'd be choosing of my free will.......

As I'd of my own free will choose not to be shot, or robbed, or be in a situation that I am being forced to do this..

No you are conceding, or giving away your freedom, becuase you fear consequences. No one can take it away from you. Free will is not about how free you FEEL to act (because that is the illusory bit) It is about how free you ARE to envisage actions and act on them.

To me it is you who are trapped in an illusion. You have allowed fear to deprive you of your natural birthrigh.t But it still exists and you can reclaim it any time you truly choose to.

Quote

If I am being held by gunpoint and given a choice either my life or my wallet, my free will choice has been , the way it would be free is if I said no, I think I'll just leave now with my life and my wallet and go on my way with no repercussions then I'd be choosing of my free will.......

This is not relevant to free will. You are just as FREE to walk away from a man at gunpoint(bothmentally and physically) as you are to walk away when he is not there.

Only the process of your mind is convincing you otherwise. You envisage him shooting you, and so you dont walk away.

But you still have precisely the same freedom of both choice and action as if the man never existed. Neither the man, nor your mind, can take over oyur body and prevent you from walking away He can shoot you, but you have still exercised free will.
Still it is understandable that you cant see this, it is so simple and yet so incredibly farreaching.
A normal sensible man might decide not to walk away for good reasons. But a normal sensible man might also choose to walk away, for equally logical and valid reasons, such as a refusal to live in fear or to be ruled by the act of another.
For each it depends on motivation and choice. One chooses life as more important than freedom. The other chooses freddom as more important than life.That is a free willed choice (do i live or do i take a chance and act as a free man?)

And, of course, staying does not guarantee life anyway. Your life is ultimately in the hand of the man with the gun, BUT your freedom to choose and act IS NOT. Unless you chose to surrender it to him along with the power over your life.