[marabod]

questionmark, on 23 October 2009 - 09:05 AM, said:

Sounds like a 4 year old justifying being caught with the hand in the cookie box.

[Beckys_Mom]

Wootloops, on 22 October 2009 - 07:46 AM, said:

Irrelevant. It's still either the result of causation or randomness, and so it's not Free Will.

How would you know what free will is....if..................you claim it doesnt exist...........so if it doesnt exist, then how can you or anyone else that agree's with you..define what is and what isnt free will??

[Wootloops]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2009 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yes it does..........

IE..................If ome mad religious mad man took my kid...and held a knife to her throat, saying I better convert to his faith or she gets it.......then I would say and do anyrthing to have her set free...and convert AGAINST my own free will


It would be against my free will as converting is NOT what I ever desired..I don't believe in it...but to save a life..against my own free will..I then give in


its not rocket science to understand what free will is

and NOOO free will is not like walking into a shop and wondering...should I get a 6 pack or beer or 12 pack?? ..

It wouldn't be against your free will to convert. You had a choice to convert and get your kid back, or not and have her killed. In choosing to convert you desired to convert because doing so would gain you the most benefits. You can't do something you do not desire to.

But this isn't free will anyway, at least not in the religious sense. Free will in the religious sense is to act outside of causation or randomness.

[Beckys_Mom]

Wootloops, on 22 October 2009 - 10:11 PM, said:

Free Will is the ability to make choices outside of causation or randomness. .

How would you know? If you claim it doesnt exist then you of all people cannot begin to define what it is

Its like asking an atheist to define what god is..........they wont, for they will say god doesnt exist..you cant sit and define something you dont believe exists lol


And why must free will be linked to religion?? its not..it can be linked to anything

If I kidnapped you and my men tortured you and I forced you to undergo surgery to have a sex change...it would be against your free will...

[Wootloops]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2009 - 05:13 PM, said:

How would you know what free will is....if..................you claim it doesnt exist...........so if it doesnt exist, then how can you or anyone else that agree's with you..define what is and what isnt free will??

That's like asking how I know what a pink unicorn is if I think it doesn't exist. What I am speaking of is the religious definition of free will, and yes this is its definition. The foundation for the first cause argument is free will, because they say that God has to be the first cause because he is the only one able to act outside of causation and randomness. If free will were possible, I would agree with them, but it isn't.

[Beckys_Mom]

Wootloops, on 22 October 2009 - 10:14 PM, said:

It wouldn't be against your free will to convert. You had a choice to convert and get your kid back, or not and have her killed. In choosing to convert you desired to convert because doing so would gain you the most benefits. You can't do something you do not desire to.

But this isn't free will anyway, at least not in the religious sense. Free will in the religious sense is to act outside of causation or randomness.

you cant define free will if you claim it dont exist..there is no logic in any of your statements...I can define it, for I believe in it

ohh man how hard is that to understand? Sorry but you are not making any sense


And free will is what your lays in your nature..if its not in your nature to do it..and you fear for a kids life..you do it going agaonst your own free will to SAVE a life

Free will is NOT a simple choice

again you cant define something you dont believe exist.................just like how an atheist cant define what god is...as they claim there is no such thing..so how on earth can they give a definition of god ....gee its not rocket science lol

[Wootloops]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2009 - 05:19 PM, said:

How would you know? If you claim it doesnt exist then you of all people cannot begin to define what it is

Its like asking an atheist to define what god is..........they wont, for they will say god doesnt exist..you cant sit and define something you dont believe exists lol


And why must free will be linked to religion?? its not..it can be linked to anything

If I kidnapped you and my men tortured you and I forced you to undergo surgery to have a sex change...it would be against your free will...

I can define what God is fine. You just need to give me the right context. It is the same with this situation. If we are speaking of the Christian god, then God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. If we are speaking of the Juedo-Christian concept of free will, then free will is defined as acting outside of causation or randomness.

[Beckys_Mom]

Wootloops, on 22 October 2009 - 10:20 PM, said:

That's like asking how I know what a pink unicorn is if I think it doesn't exist. What I am speaking of is the religious definition of free will, and yes this is its definition. The foundation for the first cause argument is free will, because they say that God has to be the first cause because he is the only one able to act outside of causation and randomness. If free will were possible, I would agree with them, but it isn't.

I am speaking of free will as a whole...not just religious


If its not in your nature to do something...then if you are forced to do it...you are forced against your own free will


key words - in your own nature...

[Wootloops]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2009 - 05:24 PM, said:

you cant define free will if you claim it dont exist..there is no logic in any of your statements...I can define it, for I believe in it

ohh man how hard is that to understand? Sorry but you are not making any sense


And free will is what your lays in your nature..if its not in your nature to do it..and you fear for a kids life..you do it going agaonst your own free will to SAVE a life

Free will is NOT a simple choice

again you cant define something you dont believe exist.................just like how an atheist cant define what god is...as they claim there is no such thing..so how on earth can they give a definition of god ....gee its not rocket science lol

I can define a pink unicorn even though I don't believe in it. Where is the flaw in logic here?

You are using a different definition of free will. We're not talking about the same thing, unless you think your actions are chosen outside of causation or randomness.

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2009 - 05:28 PM, said:

I am speaking of free will as a whole...not just religious


If its not in your nature to do something...then if you are forced to do it...you are forced against your own free will


key words - in your own nature...

There is no such thing as "as a whole". There are specific definitions. That right there is your definition. I'm not talking about that definition.

[HerNibs]

If we are discussing freewill in the context of Abrahamic religion then I would have to say that NO. There is no free will.

If some one can take it away, limit your actions, cause you to do something against or without your consent. Nope. No free will.

In the ulitmate context of free will, not really, we can do things within limitations. Physical, legal, etc. We choose 100% how we react but we can't choose to react in a way that would defy certain laws. Gravity for example.

Now, I do have a degree of freewill (again within context) to make choices that interact with my surroundings and individuals.

Hummm...not sure this is clear...

Nibs

[Beckys_Mom]

Wootloops, on 22 October 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

I can define what God is fine.

HOW?

If I ask you to define in your own words how do you see god? how do you pic him? <--explain how you can do this IF you dont believe there is such a god


Remember I would be asking you, and not asking you to tos me some random answers on who or what god is..all because you have rwad a few comments from people that actually hold the belief...no no no LOL I am asking just YOU to define how you see god...give me a description of god...tell me how you see god...you and only you in your words

[Wootloops]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2009 - 05:33 PM, said:

HOW?

If I ask you to define in your own words how do you see god? how do you pic him? <--explain how you can do this IF you dont believe there is such a god


Remember I would be asking you, and not asking you to tos me some random answers on who or what god is..all because you have rwad a few comments from people that actually hold the belief...no no no LOL I am asking just YOU to define how you see god...give me a description of god...tell me how you see god...you and only you in your words

I already answered this in the reply you quoted me from. If you give me the specific context, I can define God. If you give me the context of the Christian god, I can define him as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipotent.

[marabod]

Wootloops, on 23 October 2009 - 09:20 AM, said:

That's like asking how I know what a pink unicorn is if I think it doesn't exist. What I am speaking of is the religious definition of free will, and yes this is its definition. The foundation for the first cause argument is free will, because they say that God has to be the first cause because he is the only one able to act outside of causation and randomness. If free will were possible, I would agree with them, but it isn't.

No, your NOT. For start please provide the religious definition of Free Will with the reference to Theological literature. You are so far debunking your own understanding of Free Will, no more.

[Wootloops]

marabod, on 22 October 2009 - 05:39 PM, said:

No, your NOT. For start please provide the religious definition of Free Will with the reference to Theological literature. You are so far debunking your own understanding of Free Will, no more.

I appeal to the first cause argument. This argument only has merit if God has free will in the sense that he can act outside of causation and randomness. If this is not the case, not only is God not a viable first cause, but there would be higher forces which act upon him, making him not God.

[Beckys_Mom]

Wootloops, on 22 October 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

I can define what God is fine. You just need to give me the right context. It is the same with this situation. If we are speaking of the Christian god, then God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. If we are speaking of the Juedo-Christian concept of free will, then free will is defined as acting outside of causation or randomness.

So..............basically you would be passing off a definition given by OTHER believers and not one as seen in your own eyes? Only ones that can give the definition are those that hold the belief....those that done.......cant!!

But see.............here's the thing.....
Id be asking you to define who god is in your own words, on how you see god and not something you have picked up from other believers on how they see god, no, I would be asking you to give it to me in your own words, using your own ideas..and if you hold no belief, you will be up front and tell me there is no such things, thefore you cant define who he is ...not speaking on your own behalf you cant !!!