[Smugfish]

Hello everybody. It sounds crazy, I know, but I came up with the idea when I saw a photo of the mouth of a torpedo ray and thought that it was a dead-ringer for the girls' drawing of the owlman's maw in Jon Downes' classic book 'The Owlman and Others'. I've already had some response in another forum; check it out and see what you think: http://www.sciforums...ad.php?t=96472. I'll upload the photo as soon as I can.

This post has been edited by Smugfish: 23 October 2009 - 04:12 PM

[Mattshark]

Smugfish, on 23 October 2009 - 05:11 PM, said:

Hello everybody. It sounds crazy, I know, but I came up with the idea when I saw a photo of the mouth of a torpedo ray and thought that it was a dead-ringer for the girls' drawing of the owlman's maw in Jon Downes' classic book 'The Owlman and Others'. I've already had some response in another forum; check it out and see what you think: http://www.sciforums...ad.php?t=96472. I'll upload the photo as soon as I can.

Hi, the Torpedo ray (which is an electric ray) is an elasmobranch. This group is the sharks and rays, they are obligate aquatic animals. The breath through their gills by passing oxygenated water over them. They are also heavy, elasmobranchs weigh more than water making them slightly negatively buoyant meaning that the sink (and obvious advantage to a demersal species like Torpedo torpedo). These animals are far too heavy to fly on this ground alone.

[Smugfish]

Mattshark, on 23 October 2009 - 06:04 PM, said:

Hi, the Torpedo ray (which is an electric ray) is an elasmobranch. This group is the sharks and rays, they are obligate aquatic animals. The breath through their gills by passing oxygenated water over them. They are also heavy, elasmobranchs weigh more than water making them slightly negatively buoyant meaning that the sink (and obvious advantage to a demersal species like Torpedo torpedo). These animals are far too heavy to fly on this ground alone.

Mattshark; I appreciate your obvious biology background, but I have a background in aerodynamics. Firstly, manta rays are known to breach the surface and reach around 7ft into the air (see photo). The reason for this is speculated to be the removal of parasites from their skin. If this correct, then the higher a ray jumps, then the faster it's entry into the water and the more chance of displacing the debilitating parasites. Therefore a mechanism to evolve a gliding ability is presented. This breaching ability could also be used to avoid predators, such as orcas and sharks, to glide to safety in the shallows where the predators can't follow. The flight of an albatross, which glides above the waves using the ground effect, expends less energy than a bird at rest. Seaspray could provide the oxygen requirements and keep a steady flow of well oxygenated water over the gills, and the ray could even touch the wavecrests in flight if need be. The weight relative to water is not a factor in the ability to fly through the air (think of aeroplanes). A flying wing shape is an excellent design for flight, but would require slightly higher winds compared to albatross due to extra drag the air experiences in traversing a wider wing, but would be more robust. The body shape would need to be stiffened for aerial flight, but this could be achieved through the use of specialise ligaments (there is a ray which can crush hardened crustacean shells by this method). Also note that fish in mangrove swamps have evolved the ability to breathe air through their gills and expell waste nitrogen through their moist skin. If you were around at the time of the dinosaurs, would you have imagined that they would evolve into birds?

http://findarticles....09/ai_65132193/ (Jaws of Death - cartilaginous fishes - Brief Article):

Quote

Adam Summers, a biologist at the University of California, Berkeley, is determined to show that this supposed inferiority of cartilaginous fishes is a biomechanical myth. Cartilage is indeed generally weaker than bone but at times can become remarkably stiff and strong. For the past few years, Summers has been studying the cownose ray (Rhinoptera bonasus). This three-foot-wide creature, which lives solely on hard-shelled mollusks, is a scourge of oystermen; a school of 3,000 rays can pick an oyster bed clean in an afternoon. A ray eats its prey by grabbing the mollusk in its mouth and crushing the shell with its jaws

http://www.planete-e.../albatross.html (The albatross, an economical glider):
[

Quote

b]The albatross, an economical glider The king of the skies[/b]
Outside of its reproduction period, the albatross spends its life at sea. It is extremely well-adapted to that milieu. It has a highly-developed sense of smell, which enables it to pinpoint distant sources of food. It also possesses a desalinating gland, allowing it to drink seawater and expel the salt through the nostrils.
Albatross feed on fish, squid and krill. More often than not, the food is collected on the surface, but the birds can dive to shallow depths.
An incredible glider …
Albatross have exceptional gliding and soaring abilities. By making use of winds and air currents, they are capable of attaining speeds of 135 km/h and covering hundreds of kilometres without effort. They can fly 2 000 km in search of food.
Their long wings and weak muscles do not allow them to sustain flapping of their wings over long periods. Albatross are, therefore, dependent on the wind for their movement. During periods of calm, they are obliged to land on the water and wait for the wind to start blowing again.
… economical in energy terms
By means of a miniaturised GPS system and cardiac rhythm recorders, it has proved possible to follow the movements of the Great Albatross in the Southern Ocean. Thanks to its gliding and soaring abilities, it is capable of covering considerable distances with energy expenditure equivalent to that of a bird at rest.
In proportion to the effort furnished, the albatross consumes very little fat and very little oxygen during flight. Its endurance has no equivalent among the other vertebrates. Its performance is comparable to a man running for 80 hours at a speed of 24 km/h !

http://marinebiology...rs_live_on_land (Amphibious Fish Breathe Air and Walk Around):

Quote

The network of capillaries is fragile however and when a fish is brought onto land the capillaries collapse under their own weight. In water, the fish’s gills are buoyant and thus don’t collapse. Some fish though have evolved a way to use their gills on land.

Also, check these out: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=UxPzodKQays (Flying Robotic Ray) and http://www.youtube.c...feature=related (Water Swimming Robotic Ray)

*** I even think that modified claspers (see photo) could evolve into a hopping cloven shaped foot: http://www.thesun.co...d-in-Devon.html (Satan's footprints spotted in Devon)

Attached File(s)

•  monstermouth.jpg (37.88K)
  Number of downloads: 46
•  flyingray.jpg (75.39K)
  Number of downloads: 54
•  claspers.jpg (11.09K)
  Number of downloads: 44
•  devils-footprints.gif (5.44K)
  Number of downloads: 18
•  owlman.jpg (10.47K)
  Number of downloads: 16

This post has been edited by Smugfish: 24 October 2009 - 10:45 AM

[Mattshark]

Smugfish, on 24 October 2009 - 11:01 AM, said:

Mattshark; I appreciate your obvious biology background, but I have a background in aerodynamics. Firstly, manta rays are known to breach the surface and reach around 7ft into the air (see photo). The reason for this is speculated to be the removal of parasites from their skin. If this correct, then the higher a ray jumps, then the faster it's entry into the water and the more chance of displacing the debilitating parasites. Therefore a mechanism to evolve a gliding ability is presented. This breaching ability could also be used to avoid predators, such as orcas and sharks, to glide to safety in the shallows where the predators can't follow. The flight of an albatross, which glides above the waves using the ground effect, expends less energy than a bird at rest. Seaspray could provide the oxygen requirements and keep a steady flow of well oxygenated water over the gills, and the ray could even touch the wavecrests in flight if need be. The weight relative to water is not a factor in the ability to fly through the air (think of aeroplanes). A flying wing shape is an excellent design for flight, but would require slightly higher winds compared to albatross due to extra drag the air experiences in traversing a wider wing, but would be more robust. The body shape would need to be stiffened for aerial flight, but this could be achieved through the use of specialise ligaments (there is a ray which can crush hardened crustacean shells by this method). Also note that fish in mangrove swamps have evolved the ability to breathe air through their gills and expell waste nitrogen through their moist skin. If you were around at the time of the dinosaurs, would you have imagined that they would evolve into birds?

http://findarticles....09/ai_65132193/ (Jaws of Death - cartilaginous fishes - Brief Article):

http://www.planete-e.../albatross.html (The albatross, an economical glider):
[
http://marinebiology...rs_live_on_land (Amphibious Fish Breathe Air and Walk Around):


Also, check these out: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=UxPzodKQays (Flying Robotic Ray) and http://www.youtube.c...feature=related (Water Swimming Robotic Ray)

*** I even think that modified claspers (see photo) could evolve into a hopping cloven shaped foot: http://www.thesun.co...d-in-Devon.html (Satan's footprints spotted in Devon)

Jumping is not flying, rays are hydrodynamic yes, they can jump yes. They also die out of water (kind of a massive, massive issue for any eleasmobranch) and are very heavy animals. A manta for example, would need far, far larger wings to actually fly. Sea spray provide the oxygen requirements? Sorry but no chance. These are large animals, the require far more 02 than sea spray could ever provide. A herring needs more water than that.
You don't think the mass of these animals is not important? Sorry but unless they have a jet engine attached it is extremely important. They swim at about 10-15kmph max, they need a hell of a lot more thrust than that to achieve take off.
And comparing birds and dinosaurs to rays is ridiculous, birds and dinosaurs are morphologically extremely similar. Rays not even close, they are predominately demersal species.
Albatross have massive wing spans for their body size. Rays aren't even close to have wing spans like that
Claspers are male sexual organs, so no, they couldn't evolve into a foot. And the scum Sun is not a reliable source.

Sorry but this is simply not possible in the slightest. Basic ichthyology and the word gills also for someone with a background in aerodynamics are not showing knowledge of important associated factors such as thrust and wing span which if you have studied animal flight and aircraft flight are very important factors.

This post has been edited by Mattshark: 24 October 2009 - 11:53 AM

[psyche101]

The Umboi reference seems vague, is there anything that ties this reference to Jonathan Whitcomb's work other than an alternative interpretation of an alleged Pterosaur sighting?

[Spend]

I'm sorry but I have to agree completely with mattshark there too heavy, being on land would destroy there gills and claspers as feet is just well pretty much impossible

also owlman is a ray? isn't it missing the red eyes, ability to screech and claws

[Mr.Delicious]

The evolutionary change that allowed flying fish to become just that was so minimal and the benefit so great (it is generally accepted it is used to avoid predation and travel great distances to mate) that it was beneficial for them to expend the miniscule amount of energy needed to have its fins widen. The evolutionary change for a ray would be tremendous on the other hand. Even ifwith a fish of comprable mass, its mere small size would allow it to semi glide if dropped of a building, this gliding stemming from its small mass compared to air resistance, not evolutionary change or biological need. A ray would need to undergo a incredible biological change for small benefit. Decreasing its size by a matter of - 500% and able to consume much less food to merely de-louse itself? Give me a break, the individuals involved in this transition( which would never occur) to a glider would be at a SEVERE disadvantage compared to other rays, and would immediately die off. These creatures evolved to fit a niche, a niche they fit very well and allows them to reproduce and maintain a population. There would be no reason for it to forgo this niche to de-louse itself. The only way a species from that family would be able to glide is if it was far smaller than any ray we know of, even if you threw a short-nose electric ray horizontally off a building it would still plummit vertically, because it weighs a pound compared to a flying fish which weighs about an ounce. In the end even if there was a ounce weighing glding ray out there it would not responsible for these sightings. And trust me, it would have to weigh about an ounce.

[Smugfish]

Mr.Delicious, on 27 October 2009 - 12:26 AM, said:

The evolutionary change that allowed flying fish to become just that was so minimal and the benefit so great (it is generally accepted it is used to avoid predation and travel great distances to mate) that it was beneficial for them to expend the miniscule amount of energy needed to have its fins widen. The evolutionary change for a ray would be tremendous on the other hand. Even ifwith a fish of comprable mass, its mere small size would allow it to semi glide if dropped of a building, this gliding stemming from its small mass compared to air resistance, not evolutionary change or biological need. A ray would need to undergo a incredible biological change for small benefit. Decreasing its size by a matter of - 500% and able to consume much less food to merely de-louse itself? Give me a break, the individuals involved in this transition( which would never occur) to a glider would be at a SEVERE disadvantage compared to other rays, and would immediately die off. These creatures evolved to fit a niche, a niche they fit very well and allows them to reproduce and maintain a population. There would be no reason for it to forgo this niche to de-louse itself. The only way a species from that family would be able to glide is if it was far smaller than any ray we know of, even if you threw a short-nose electric ray horizontally off a building it would still plummit vertically, because it weighs a pound compared to a flying fish which weighs about an ounce. In the end even if there was a ounce weighing glding ray out there it would not responsible for these sightings. And trust me, it would have to weigh about an ounce. + OTHERS

It sounds like you are all using your IQ sided brain too much and have lost some aspect of common sense. Let me explain in a child-like fashion:

There's no anatomical reason why a fruit bat couldn't evolve to fly as efficiently as an albatross.
There's no anatomical reason why a ray couldn't evolve to the weight and wing size of a fruit bat.
There's no anatomical reason why the gills of a ray couldn't evolve to become uncollapsible and gain oxygen from the air during it's parasite-removing breaches.
Hence there's no anatomical reason why a ray couldn't evolve to have the ability of true flight.

A F.A.R is a much better candidate than a pterosaur because not only is the very long slender tail an excellent fit but there is a good explanation for the bioluminoscity as proven by TV invetigation to the Umboi island in 'Monster Hunter'. Here's an interesting page none-the-less Ropen.

* Has everyone read CFZ's Jon Downes' book 'The Owlman And Others'? If possible, a download of a scan of the drawings made by the two girls would be very much appreciated, also with their description of the prominent black pincer-like claws. (I gave my copy away to Oxfam last year during a flat move).

Attached File(s)

•  ropen-like-ray.jpg (82.3K)
  Number of downloads: 26

This post has been edited by Smugfish: 28 October 2009 - 10:27 AM

[Mattshark]

[quote name='Smugfish' date='28 October 2009 - 10:02 AM' timestamp='1256724150' post='3143325']

Quote

It sounds like you are all using your IQ sided brain too much and have lost some aspect of common sense. Let me explain in a child-like fashion:

There's no anatomical reason why a fruit bat couldn't evolve to fly as efficiently as an albatross.
There's no anatomical reason why a ray couldn't evolve to the weight and wing size of a fruit bat.
There's no anatomical reason why the gills of a ray couldn't evolve to become uncollapsible and gain oxygen from the air during it's parasite-removing breaches.
Hence there's no anatomical reason why a ray couldn't evolve to have the ability of true flight.

Yeah but they haven't and they are not going to any time soon and there is certainly no pressure upon to do so. I'm telling you that this response has no common sense and is not supported by any evidence.

Quote

A F.A.R is a much better candidate than a pterosaur because not only is the very long slender tail an excellent fit but there is a good explanation for the bioluminoscity as proven by TV invetigation to the Umboi island in 'Monster Hunter'. Here's an interesting page none-the-less Ropen.

Monster Hunters and proven, digging your own grave there. Monster hunters is TV, it is entertainment, don't try and pass it off as science. It seems already though that you are quite willing to net things like facts get in the way though.

Quote

* Has everyone read CFZ's Jon Downes' book 'The Owlman And Others'? If possible, a download of a scan of the drawings made by the two girls would be very much appreciated, also with their description of the prominent black pincer-like claws. (I gave my copy away to Oxfam last year during a flat move).

No but where your idea has red eyes, rays have nostrils, the eyes are on the dorsal side their body because staring at sand is a bit pointless.

[Drago]

There are no anatomical reasons why they can't. But there are obviously ecological reasons why they haven't, because none of those animals have done any of those things you described.

[HerNibs]

Maybe I'm just simple but

Devil's footprint = feet
Ray = no feet

Ray = gills
air = lungs

What am I missing?

Nibs

This post has been edited by HerNibs: 28 October 2009 - 05:33 PM

[Drago]

That the TC is saying that rays could have evolved to use their claspers/reproductive organs as a foot, making the footprints, and their gills evolved to enable air breathing. Mattshark... Doesn't think so. To put it mildly.

[HerNibs]

Drago, on 28 October 2009 - 11:49 AM, said:

That the TC is saying that rays could have evolved to use their claspers/reproductive organs as a foot, making the footprints, and their gills evolved to enable air breathing. Mattshark... Doesn't think so. To put it mildly.

Ok. I agree with Mattshark.

Why would they evolve this um...change?

How would it benefit them?

Having the hoo-hah turn into a foot doesn't seem very productive for the species...

Nibs

[sinewave]

Yeah, I have to agree with Mattshark. There is a weight to surface area ratio issue to overcome if rays are to fly. Having the necessary fluid dynamics is only part of the picture. That and the troublesome respiration thing where gills require oxygenated water to work.

[Undeadskeptic]

Smugfish, on 28 October 2009 - 10:02 PM, said:

It sounds like you are all using your IQ sided brain too much and have lost some aspect of common sense. Let me explain in a child-like fashion:

There's no anatomical reason why a fruit bat couldn't evolve to fly as efficiently as an albatross.
There's no anatomical reason why a ray couldn't evolve to the weight and wing size of a fruit bat.
There's no anatomical reason why the gills of a ray couldn't evolve to become uncollapsible and gain oxygen from the air during it's parasite-removing breaches.
Hence there's no anatomical reason why a ray couldn't evolve to have the ability of true flight.

A F.A.R is a much better candidate than a pterosaur because not only is the very long slender tail an excellent fit but there is a good explanation for the bioluminoscity as proven by TV invetigation to the Umboi island in 'Monster Hunter'. Here's an interesting page none-the-less Ropen.

* Has everyone read CFZ's Jon Downes' book 'The Owlman And Others'? If possible, a download of a scan of the drawings made by the two girls would be very much appreciated, also with their description of the prominent black pincer-like claws. (I gave my copy away to Oxfam last year during a flat move).

I have the pics.



Not bearing much resemblence to a Ray, however.