[DieChecker]

I think a better answer then, "They could but never did" is that we would see these flying rays more often then just the once for the Moth Man. I think perhaps Moth Man would more resonably be a genetic freak that simply has a mouth that resembles the rays mouth. Animals that eat the same foods generally have the same mouth structures. So perhaps Moth Man is a shellfish eater? Plus wasn't it supposed to be covered in feathers or shaggy fur?

[Smugfish]

HerNibs, on 28 October 2009 - 05:54 PM, said:

Ok. I agree with Mattshark.

Why would they evolve this um...change?

How would it benefit them?

Having the hoo-hah turn into a foot doesn't seem very productive for the species...

Nibs

Before symbiotic 'cleaning stations' were established, how would the rays have rid themselves of deadly parasites? The live young of manta rays instinctively breach and flap their body-wings against the surface. The ability to absorb oxygen from the air (by making the gills stiffer and therefore uncollapsible) would increase the power of the parasite-removing slap. Therfore it would be an evolutionary advantage. This proposed species could then also employ this glide/flying ability to evade predators. Escaping to shallow waters out of harms way would be ANOTHER evolutionary advantage. The use of wet streaming seaside caves could be YET ANOTHER evolutionary advantage (there skin would need to be kept damp for additional breathing ability) - no sharks or orcas would be able to dig them out of the sand from there would they?

Quote

“Rays jump to escape a predator, give birth and shake off parasites," said Lynn Gear of Theater of the Sea marine animal park in Florida Keys.

[Smugfish]

DieChecker, on 29 October 2009 - 02:21 AM, said:

I think a better answer then, "They could but never did" is that we would see these flying rays more often then just the once for the Moth Man. I think perhaps Moth Man would more resonably be a genetic freak that simply has a mouth that resembles the rays mouth. Animals that eat the same foods generally have the same mouth structures. So perhaps Moth Man is a shellfish eater? Plus wasn't it supposed to be covered in feathers or shaggy fur?

Thanks for the considered approach. The rays are naturally elusive to potential predators. It would be an evolutionary advantage to be elusive to human beings. We don't like things that are so big, ugly and can fly. I think that popularised naming of unknown creatures such as 'owlman', 'mothman', 'black dog', 'werewolf' are all potentialy very misleading to their true identities. The production of feather-like or fur-like features is not beyond the capabilities of cartiliginous body plans. A plethera of fine barbels would do the trick for instance.

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[Mattshark]

Smugfish, on 29 October 2009 - 11:38 AM, said:

Before symbiotic 'cleaning stations' were established, how would the rays have rid themselves of deadly parasites? The live young of manta rays instinctively breach and flap their body-wings against the surface. The ability to absorb oxygen from the air (by making the gills stiffer and therefore uncollapsible) would increase the power of the parasite-removing slap. Therfore it would be an evolutionary advantage. This proposed species could then also employ this glide/flying ability to evade predators. Escaping to shallow waters out of harms way would be ANOTHER evolutionary advantage. The use of wet streaming seaside caves could be YET ANOTHER evolutionary advantage (there skin would need to be kept damp for additional breathing ability) - no sharks or orcas would be able to dig them out of the sand from there would they?

Yes, this is nice fiction, but that is all this is. I think you need to do 2 things.
1: Gain a better understanding of evolution and grasp why a ray is evolved for a demersal aquatic lifestyle.
2: Gain a better understanding of ichthyology.

[Mattshark]

Smugfish, on 29 October 2009 - 11:47 AM, said:

Thanks for the considered approach. The rays are naturally elusive to potential predators. It would be an evolutionary advantage to be elusive to human beings. We don't like things that are so big, ugly and can fly. I think that popularised naming of unknown creatures such as 'owlman', 'mothman', 'black dog', 'werewolf' are all potentialy very misleading to their true identities. The production of feather-like or fur-like features is not beyond the capabilities of cartiliginous body plans. A plethera of fine barbels would do the trick for instance.

That is not a considered argument, that is conjecture that requires ignorance of evidence. Your argument is truly ridiculous and takes no heed of actually biology.

And werewolves? Now that is whole new level of silliness.

[Sir_Quack_The_Wack]

Mattshark, this may seem like a dream to you when you read what I am about to say:

I agree with you.

I never thought I'd say that, but I do.

The idea that rays can fly is ridiculous. Also, if one watches the way they swim in the water, and turn etcetera, it really makes the idea of these creatures trying to fly all the more ridiculous.

They would have to be accustomed to leaping out of the water high enough. They can flap at the surface, but they can't leap up high. Never seen that.

Microraptors and such at least were able to climb rocks and trees where they could jump and evolve realistically to keep gliding, then eventually, fly like they do now.

[Smugfish]

Sir_Quack_The_Wack, on 29 October 2009 - 12:01 PM, said:

Mattshark, this may seem like a dream to you when you read what I am about to say:

I agree with you.

I never thought I'd say that, but I do.

The idea that rays can fly is ridiculous. Also, if one watches the way they swim in the water, and turn etcetera, it really makes the idea of these creatures trying to fly all the more ridiculous.

They would have to be accustomed to leaping out of the water high enough. They can flap at the surface, but they can't leap up high. Never seen that.

Microraptors and such at least were able to climb rocks and trees where they could jump and evolve realistically to keep gliding, then eventually, fly like they do now.

That's complete BS. Rays have been seen to jump 7ft out of the water. That's plenty high enough to start evolving the ability to glide! Take a LOOK at the photo below.

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[Smugfish]

Mattshark, on 29 October 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

And werewolves? Now that is whole new level of silliness.

Or a whole new level of lateral thinking, perhaps? A manta ray's guiders, for example, would become vestigal if it turned to feeding on larger crustaceans that walk the ocean bottom. The mouth would lower and change into an ugly maw and the guiders would be left as 'wolf-like ear' appendages.. It's possible.

Remember, all I was saying is that the flying ray Ropen explanation is BETTER than the established pterosuar imagery.

[Mattshark]

Smugfish, on 29 October 2009 - 12:34 PM, said:

Or a whole new level of lateral thinking, perhaps? A manta ray's guiders, for example, would become vestigal if it turned to feeding on larger crustaceans that walk the ocean bottom. The mouth would lower and change into an ugly maw and the guiders would be left as 'wolf-like ear' appendages.. It's possible.

Remember, all I was saying is that the flying ray Ropen explanation is BETTER than the established pterosuar imagery.

It is not lateral thinking it is ignorance of basic biology. Thresher sharks, white sharks, black tip sharks all leap clear of the water too, it gives your argument no credence. Basic biology shows you are wrong.
It is not possible. Do yourself a favour and educate yourself properly in biology instead of this comic book nonsense.

Actually a misidentified bird is a far better explanation.

[Mattshark]

Smugfish, on 29 October 2009 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's complete BS. Rays have been seen to jump 7ft out of the water. That's plenty high enough to start evolving the ability to glide! Take a LOOK at the photo below.

So is this white shark going to learn to fly too?


You really should learn much more about evolution.

[Clobhair-cean]

Mattshark, on 29 October 2009 - 01:50 PM, said:

So is this white shark going to learn to fly too?

Of course! That's the only way to catch the soaring salmon

This post has been edited by Clobhair-cean: 29 October 2009 - 01:07 PM

[HerNibs]

Mattshark, on 29 October 2009 - 06:50 AM, said:

So is this white shark going to learn to fly too?


You really should learn much more about evolution.

Gah, what a scary thought. I would move underground.



Nibs

[Smugfish]

Mattshark, on 29 October 2009 - 12:50 PM, said:

So is this white shark going to learn to fly too?

That's a very sad argument indeed. So what forms of cryptozoology are you willing to believe in, then? Or are all eye-witness accounts simple misidentifications in your self-righteous mainstream mind?

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This post has been edited by Smugfish: 29 October 2009 - 01:41 PM

[Spend]

I'm sorry but seriously there to heavy to glide or fly

lets do some little compairisons

worlds largest wingspan bird ever to exist was argentavis magnificens with possibly up to an 26 foot wingspan and probably weighed in at 140–180 lb so thats 6.9lb per foot of wing

heaviest flying bird alive 2day is the kori bustard with the heaviest known one weighing in at 44 lb and a wing span of 7.9 foot that's only 5.5 ish pounds per foot of wing span

Quetzalcoatlus the largest known flying animal had a 36 ft wing span and weighed up to 260lbs thats still only 7.2lbs per foot of wing.

now the manta ray 25 foot "wing" span and 5100lbs that's 204lbs per foot of wing span

Ok this hardly scientific but you get the gist surely there just too freaking heavy it would take a massive amount of thrust to get that airborne and stay airborne more than can be naturally produced

and I guess A380 airbus weighs a max of 1300000 and only has a wingspan of 261.6 (thats 4969lbs per foot of wingspan) but it does take 4 Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines.

also there is the issue of oxygen intake problem but u seem convinced that evolution would sort that out

so lets jump to claspers as feet idea because honestly I can't see a ray standing upright and I am fairly sure there has never been any reports of any fish using there claspers for locomotion how do u even suggest this evolved its just not the right shape size of even strong enough and speaking of which how does a flying ray land?

look at flying fish they glide but they only do it for a max of 45 seconds why haven't they evolved the ability to breath outside of the water? because evolution just doesn't work like that it isnt a pick and choose or a I know I'll now evolve like this or even it makes sense that being able to breath out of the water and being able to fly it just doesn't work like that.

[Smugfish]

Spend, on 29 October 2009 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'm sorry but seriously there to heavy to glide or fly

lets do some little compairisons

worlds largest wingspan bird ever to exist was argentavis magnificens with possibly up to an 26 foot wingspan and probably weighed in at 140–180 lb so thats 6.9lb per foot of wing

heaviest flying bird alive 2day is the kori bustard with the heaviest known one weighing in at 44 lb and a wing span of 7.9 foot that's only 5.5 ish pounds per foot of wing span

Quetzalcoatlus the largest known flying animal had a 36 ft wing span and weighed up to 260lbs thats still only 7.2lbs per foot of wing.

now the manta ray 25 foot "wing" span and 5100lbs that's 204lbs per foot of wing span

Ok this hardly scientific but you get the gist surely there just too freaking heavy it would take a massive amount of thrust to get that airborne and stay airborne more than can be naturally produced

and I guess A380 airbus weighs a max of 1300000 and only has a wingspan of 261.6 (thats 4969lbs per foot of wingspan) but it does take 4 Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines.

also there is the issue of oxygen intake problem but u seem convinced that evolution would sort that out

so lets jump to claspers as feet idea because honestly I can't see a ray standing upright and I am fairly sure there has never been any reports of any fish using there claspers for locomotion how do u even suggest this evolved its just not the right shape size of even strong enough and speaking of which how does a flying ray land?

look at flying fish they glide but they only do it for a max of 45 seconds why haven't they evolved the ability to breath outside of the water? because evolution just doesn't work like that it isnt a pick and choose or a I know I'll now evolve like this or even it makes sense that being able to breath out of the water and being able to fly it just doesn't work like that.

They're definitely NOT too heavy to GLIDE!! Think of a smaller ray that evolved to glide/fly that then grew bigger!

This post has been edited by Smugfish: 29 October 2009 - 01:57 PM