[blue triangle]

swollen_ostrich, on 16 November 2009 - 01:45 PM, said:

Ok, let's start a reasonable discussion here....

Okay!

swollen_ostrich, on 16 November 2009 - 01:45 PM, said:

Please tell me how this chapter of Revelation ties into the 9/11 tragedy?

I believe that the chapter on the two witnesses is related to 9/11 because certain themes and numbers are clustered at this location:

1. The number 11 (reduced value of 'Jesus' and with biblical connotations of disintegration, disorder and imperfection) features

- through the chapter number, 11 (a common feature of the code)

- through the gematria of the verse that describes the destruction of the two witnesses, Rev. 11:7

“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

The ordinal value of this verse is 1265, or 11 x 115.

Note that the code is very precise about which verses have ordinal values that are multiples of 11. Those verses that describe the destruction of the subject of the prophecy (or occasionally some other action taken against the subject) are those that are encoded with elevenness, a phenomenon that is found again and again in the NIV, and is statistically improbable.


2. The idea of 'twoness' the number two signifying difference and duality, which leads to opposition, enmity, oppression, etc. The twin towers were symbols of this idea, and in fact were born of this idea, the source of all man's troubles. In Rev. 11 they are described as the two witnesses, the two olive trees and the two lampstands.

There are other links to 9/11 in the fact that Revelation 11 describes the two witnesses as being powerful, of their bodies lying in the streets of the great city and of their having many enemies. Note also that there were almost exactly 35 years between the constucton of the towers and their destruction. In Rev. 11 the witnesses prophesy for 3.5 years. Finally, the ordinal value of 'two witnesses' is 191.

BT

This post has been edited by blue triangle: 17 November 2009 - 11:56 AM

[swollen_ostrich]

blue triangle, on 17 November 2009 - 05:55 AM, said:

- through the chapter number, 11 (a common feature of the code)

You may want to do some historical fact checking here - the chaptering of the bible was not the same today as it was at the time of its writing. In fact, the bible has been "rechaptered and versed" many times - 1st around the time of the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, then during the creation of the Latin Vulgate translation of the bible 50 years or so later, then again by Archbishop Stephen Langton in 1227.

See here for more details.

Quote

- through the gematria of the verse that describes the destruction of the two witnesses, Rev. 11:7

“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

The ordinal value of this verse is 1265, or 11 x 115.

First off, what is the significance of the number 115? There are an infinite number of numerals that can be evenly divided even by 11 and an infinite number of numerals that can be divided by 11 and leave a remainder. So what? Just as an illustration - there are about 31,173 verses in the NIV - divide that by 11 and you get 2833.9 - so, since the chapter 11 is "significant", what about the verses? See what I'm getting at - out of 2833 verses, I will lay you odds you can find some that also fit into your "theory".

Also, does this work with other translations of the bible, or just the NIV? If just the NIV, why is that translation so important? It's one of the most recent translations and was a thought-to-thought translation - a method of translation keeps the menaing intact, but adds a lot of sentence restructuring from the original text. Which means that, though the ideas are accurate, the text is not necessarily in the same structure of the original.

Quote

Note that the code is very precise about which verses have ordinal values that are multiples of 11. Those verses that describe the destruction of the subject of the prophecy (or occasionally some other action taken against the subject) are those that are encoded with elevenness, a phenomenon that is found again and again in the NIV, and is statistically improbable.

Can you explain to me why E. W. Bullinger assigned the number 11 the meaning of imbalance, etc? In numerology, 11 is a symbol of purity and balance.

Quote

2. The idea of 'twoness' the number two signifying difference and duality, which leads to opposition, enmity, oppression, etc. The twin towers were symbols of this idea, and in fact were born of this idea, the source of all man's troubles. In Rev. 11 they are described as the two witnesses, the two olive trees and the two lampstands.

How do you come up with the "two witnesses" symbolizing the twin towers? Are you privy to some information that hundreds of years worth of bible experts aren't?

All reputable study of Revelation 11 that I can find refer to the "two witnesses" as two prophets, and tie the "two olive trees" to Zechariah 4:2-3, 4:14 - the bible is full of motifs from the old testament that are then used in the new testament. It's common. All references to the "two witnesses" specifically refer to them as people. There is no reason to believe they are symbolic of two towers built 2000 years later.

Further more, the "two witnesses" are most commonly believed to be symbolic of prophets from the old testament, most commonly Elijah, Moses, or Enoch.

Quote

There are other links to 9/11 in the fact that Revelation 11 describes the two witnesses as being powerful, of their bodies lying in the streets of the great city and of their having many enemies. Note also that there were almost exactly 35 years between the constucton of the towers and their destruction. In Rev. 11 the witnesses prophesy for 3.5 years. Finally, the ordinal value of 'two witnesses' is 191.

The "great city" is Jerusalem. The 3.5 years of ministry for the " two witnesses" corresponds to the "42 months" that Jerusalem is held by the gentiles in this same chapter. Everyone has enemies. What is the significance of 191?

[blue triangle]

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

You may want to do some historical fact checking here - the chaptering of the bible was not the same today as it was at the time of its writing. In fact, the bible has been "rechaptered and versed" many times - 1st around the time of the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, then during the creation of the Latin Vulgate translation of the bible 50 years or so later, then again by Archbishop Stephen Langton in 1227.

Although interesting, none of the history of the evolution of the Bible is relevant. The chapterisation and versification of the NIV Bible as it is today is the rock on which the New Bible Code stands.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

First off, what is the significance of the number 115?

The important fact is that the number 1265 is divisible by 11. The other divisor, 115, has some interesting gematria attached to it, some of which might be relevant, but this is of secondary importance here. In the NIV, verses thematically related to 9/11 repeatedly turn out to be multiples of 11, a confluence of number and meaning that is statistically improbable and designed to catch our attention and stimulate further investigation.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

There are an infinite number of numerals that can be evenly divided even by 11 and an infinite number of numerals that can be divided by 11 and leave a remainder. So what?

Yes, if you divide infinity by 11, you still have infinity. Yet there are only a finite quantity of numbers that can be extracted from the Bible, and some of these are more high-profile than others. What I find is that the most significant numbers are usually part of the code, often multiples of 11. For instance...

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

Just as an illustration - there are about 31,173 verses in the NIV - divide that by 11 and you get 2833.9 - so, since the chapter 11 is "significant", what about the verses? See what I'm getting at - out of 2833 verses, I will lay you odds you can find some that also fit into your "theory".

There are precisely 31086 verses in the NIV (16 less than the KJV). 31086 is 11 x 2826.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

Also, does this work with other translations of the bible, or just the NIV?

As far as I am aware the vehicle for the New Bible Code is the NIV Bible, although, since the code developed over many hundreds of years (at least 1000 years,in fact, possibly longer), other versions of the Bible contain fragments of the code.

For instance, the KJV Bible begins

In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the..

The NIV Bible begins

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the...

The addition of one letter (to 'heaven') in verse 1 and the change from 'and' to 'now' in verse two have the effect of changing the ordinal value of the first 12 words from 463 to 515. This creates the first of the 'Signatures of Christ', thus:

Jesus (s) = 515

which was not present in the KJV. However, the first of three numbers identifying the Creation Snowflake, 252 is present, because the first six words are the same, and these encode the outer rim of the snowflake. The other two numbers (ov of the first 18 words and ov of verse 2) are unique to the NIV, as far as I can tell.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

If just the NIV, why is that translation so important? It's one of the most recent translations and was a thought-to-thought translation - a method of translation keeps the menaing intact, but adds a lot of sentence restructuring from the original text. Which means that, though the ideas are accurate, the text is not necessarily in the same structure of the original.

In my opinion, the NIV was probably chosen because

1) it is the most popular moden English translation of the Bible.
2) English is the international language of choice.
3) It was finished only about twenty years before 9/11, which perhaps allowed it to be 'fine tuned' in a way the KJV, for instance, could not have been.

If you were going to place a code in a modern version of the Bible, the English-language NIV is the one you would chose.

The New Bible Code is completely new (as the name implies) and is not related to any other code that may be in the Bible. Many people object to the possibility of a code being in the NIV because they have a prior belief that any code could only have been placed within the original scriptures (which itself should be problematic for them as these were temselves edited many times), or they believe that God would onl have inspiredthe original scriptures. I believe, however, that God inspires us all the time, and has guided the evolution of the Bible and the translation of the NIV (and perhaps the KJV), and the course of world events to send us a powerful message at this critical pass in our march through history.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

Can you explain to me why E. W. Bullinger assigned the number 11 the meaning of imbalance, etc? In numerology, 11 is a symbol of purity and balance.

In different times and cultures, numbers have meant different things. In the biblical scheme 12 means perfect government (12 disciples/tribes of Israel under The Lord's guidance), so 11, being 1 less than 12, means imperfection. There are several instances in the Bible, of 11 being associated with imperfection, disorder, etc.. In Genesis 11, God punished man for his hubris in building a tower that 'will reach unto heaven' by confusing his languages and 'scattering him across the earth'.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

How do you come up with the "two witnesses" symbolizing the twin towers? Are you privy to some information that hundreds of years worth of bible experts aren't?

The code uses many different symbols for the twin towers: The tower of Babel, a ram with two long horns (Daniel 8), Goliath, felled by a slingshot from David (1 Sam. 17), the fig tree that Jesus withered (Mark 11), the two criminals crucified alongside Jesus (Luke 23), the feet of the disciples washed by Jesus (John 13), the beast (Rev. 13) the two witnesses (Rev. 11), Babylon (Rev. 17), and many others. All are symbolic of the towers in one way or another, either through what they represent(for instance Goliath represented physical might, Babylon greed, etc), or because there were two of them (the two witnesses, the disciples two feet, etc).

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

All reputable study of Revelation 11 that I can find refer to the "two witnesses" as two prophets, and tie the "two olive trees" to Zechariah 4:2-3, 4:14 - the bible is full of motifs from the old testament that are then used in the new testament. It's common. All references to the "two witnesses" specifically refer to them as people. There is no reason to believe they are symbolic of two towers built 2000 years later.

The bible speaks to us on many levels and passages can be representative of more than one thing. Many areas of biblical study are completely unaffected by the code, although some, most obviously eschatology, certainly are affected. But there are so many schools of thought regarding the end times - milleniumism, amilleniumism, preterism, etc, that most of them have to be wrong anyway!

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

Further more, the "two witnesses" are most commonly believed to be symbolic of prophets from the old testament, most commonly Elijah, Moses, or Enoch.

I would have to disagree. It's possible that there are multiple meanings to some biblical prophecies (and history is fractal, so some patterns repeat over and again), but I think that most Christians simply read the Bible too literally.

swollen_ostrich, on 17 November 2009 - 02:17 PM, said:

The "great city" is Jerusalem. The 3.5 years of ministry for the " two witnesses" corresponds to the "42 months" that Jerusalem is held by the gentiles in this same chapter. Everyone has enemies. What is the significance of 191?

191 is a numerical anagram of 911.

New York represents Jerusalem for the purpose of the drama created on 9/11. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem around 33 AD. The terrorist attack of September 11, 2001 were a symbolic crucifixion that marked His Second Coming, 2000 years later.

This post has been edited by blue triangle: 18 November 2009 - 03:37 PM

[swollen_ostrich]

Ok, I'm gonna try a different tack...

Why couldn't all of this elevenness and duality from the bible prophesy the September 11, 1932 crash of Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura, who were major sport aviators of their day? It fits...

1) The two men are the two witnesses, two horns of the bull, two oil lamps, two etc, etc, etc.....
2) Their airplane was shaped like a cross, symbolically signifying the crucifixion
3) Stanisław Wigura comes out to 1110 using this calculator - notice that 11 can be found twice in this number!
4) Franciszek Żwirko comes out to 1128 using this calculator - 11 can be found in this number!
5) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the International Tourist Plane Contest - Challenge 1932 with 461 points - 4+6+1=11
6) On October 16, 1929, Żwirko and Antoni Kocjan set an international FAI altitude record of 4,004 m - 4004/11=364
7) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the challenge 1932 flying an RWD-6 airplane. RWD comes out to 270, 270-6=264, 264/11=24
8) At the time of their deaths, both men were considered heroes in Poland
9) Wigura helped design the RWD series of planes in late 1927, he dies in one on 9/11/1932 - almost 3.5 years later - there's your 3.5 years of the first of the two witnesses

I could go on...

See what I mean?

[blue triangle]

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

Ok, I'm gonna try a different tack...

Why couldn't all of this elevenness and duality from the bible prophesy the September 11, 1932 crash of Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura, who were major sport aviators of their day? It fits...

1) The two men are the two witnesses, two horns of the bull, two oil lamps, two etc, etc, etc.....

The event wasn't nearly important enough to register on the collective psyche of humankind is the short answer here. I had never heard of it before. It is possible that because of the date there could have been a link to 9/11 through synchronicity, but I don't see any here (some coincidences are simply coincidences). But I'll go through your example anyway.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

2) Their airplane was shaped like a cross, symbolically signifying the crucifixion

Okay, I'll give you that. The many links to the crucifixion of 9/11 come through gematria, including the solution of a geometric puzzle encoded within the event. See The Crucifixion for this infomation, includig a partial solution to the puzzle.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

3) Stanisław Wigura comes out to 1110 using this calculator - notice that 11 can be found twice in this number!

The code based on increments of 6 is a contrived modern system, the invention of which was inspired by the Mayan system of counting. It is not part of Hebrew gematria (all three systems in the New Bible Code derive from ancient Hebrew systems).

You also got the arithmetic wrong. Under this system 'Stanislaw Wigura' comes to 1182.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

4) Franciszek Żwirko comes out to 1128 using this calculator - 11 can be found in this number!

You also got this one wrong. 'Franciszek Zwirko' comes to 1284.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

5) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the International Tourist Plane Contest - Challenge 1932 with 461 points - 4+6+1=11

Very contrived. 9/11 was the 254th day of the year and 2 + 5 + 4 = 11, but I don't mention it on my site. Actually to be fair, I do mention that 9 + 1 + 1 = 11, so there are always exceptions to any rule. It's difficult to know how strictly to follow any rule. In general, though, I do not mention the many superficial 11s that people have found in 9/11, even though I think they may be intelligently designed, because I have so much better evidence to show people I simply don't need to 'gild the lily' wth all this stuff. That's only one example. If you had hundreds from the event (as 9/11 researchers have) you might convince me.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

6) On October 16, 1929, Żwirko and Antoni Kocjan set an international FAI altitude record of 4,004 m - 4004/11=364

Not bad.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

7) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the challenge 1932 flying an RWD-6 airplane. RWD comes out to 270, 270-6=264, 264/11=24

Again, very contrived. Gematria is additive, not subtractive, as well. Do you see the difference between this kind of contrived manipulation and simply noticing that the date was the 11th, flight 11 hit first, the towers resembled '11', there were 110 storeys, the towers burned for 99 (9 x 11) days, Osama bin Laden = 110, September the Eleventh, Two Thousand and One = 440 (11 x 40), nine one one = 110, the 9/11 Commission hearings closed 1010 days after 9/11, the 9/11 Commission Report came out 1045 (11 x 95) days after 9/11, etc, etc, etc? I'm not saying that any of the above are conclusive, incidentally, just worthy of further investigation. Note also that on September11news.com are documented a huge number of 11-related coincidences deriving from 9/11. The life of Osama bin Laden is one. And that's before we look at any 11s encoded within the NIV.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

8) At the time of their deaths, both men were considered heroes in Poland

I don't think this is relevant. The twin towers and the Pentagon were important for what they represented so well: greed and the military force that undergirds it. I was lying thinking of what 9/11 meant not long after the event and the following two words appeared before my (open) eyes. ARMS AVARICE

You might want to calculate their ordinal value, the number of letters, the first letters and the ordinal values of the individual words. Also, each of the words stands for one of the 9/11 targets and has the same gematria as 'demon' and 'dragon'.

swollen_ostrich, on 19 November 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

9) Wigura helped design the RWD series of planes in late 1927, he dies in one on 9/11/1932 - almost 3.5 years later - there's your 3.5 years of the first of the two witnesses

You're trying hard, but there is no meaningful link here between him designing a plane then dying in it and the biblical 3.5 years. The twin towers, on the other hand can I think be shown to be related to the beast (see Rev. 13:11, for instance) and the two witnesses and other figures in Daniel and Revelation, scattered through both of which are different versions of the 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, etc)

Surely you would agree that the 1932 event was simply too insignificant to be the fulfilment of biblical prophecy. 9/11, on the other hand, felt like the end of the world to many, many people. It was certainly a major watershed in history. Remember too that 9/11 affected us at the level of our psyche. It had a major impact there, with huge consequences for the world.

This post has been edited by blue triangle: 20 November 2009 - 08:41 PM