[ReincarnatedNobody]

marabod, on 05 November 2009 - 03:53 AM, said:

Thats only because I treasure social peace - because differently from the young passionate home-grown che gevaras here, I've been through crisis, deaths, interrogations, revolution and barricades, and I honestly say that I like social peace, harmony and order much more. Even if I cannot understand how they up there manage to maintain it. We have different experiences, you never had a problem of buying food and never were risking your life when just walking with the dog. After I myself was once fighting against a "bad" government, I realized that it is better to have a bad one than none.

I would only hope, that people like you will consider giving it another go. You're not the only one that's been through the fire. We've all seen our fair share of war and peace, in one way or another. How many of us would rather have peace over war? I would rather have peace as well, but not at the cost of my soul. What's the cost of said peace? What's its true nature? Maybe it's all subjective but maybe there is a standard we can compare it to. Settling for what's merely available is taking the path of least resistance, and in war, the cunning opponent will do what it can to get his opponent to resort to it. There's too much at stake for all of us just to settle for the lesser of two evils. Good can only maintain its light through consistent care and vigilance.

[marabod]

ReincarnatedNobody, on 05 November 2009 - 05:19 PM, said:

I would only hope, that people like you will consider giving it another go. You're not the only one that's been through the fire. We've all seen our fair share of war and peace, in one way or another. How many of us would rather have peace over war? I would rather have peace as well, but not at the cost of my soul. What's the cost of said peace? What's its true nature? Maybe it's all subjective but maybe there is a standard we can compare it to. Settling for what's merely available is taking the path of least resistance, and in war, the cunning opponent will do what it can to get his opponent to resort to it. There's too much at stake for all of us just to settle for the lesser of two evils. Good can only maintain its light through consistent care and vigilance.

A wise man never draws a gun to scare, but to shoot dead only. Aint broken - dont fix it! Live the nice life until it sure stops to be nice - then shoot. This is only what I am saying. When everyone is standing in the crap up to the lips - its better to not create the waves. Emotions are great, but the life itself is greater. Once immersed in Chaos, you would not like this to be repeated!

[Cadetak]

conspiracybeliever, on 04 November 2009 - 08:39 AM, said:

You said it! People can no longer think for themselves! Marabod is the perfect citizen. He accepts everything the powers say and he doesn't question them. He is the perfect example of our society. We are at a stage where the masses would stand by and watch their government rape and murder their neighbor and simply watch and say "they must have done something to deserve it". And accept any reason the government gives them without question. We live in a sick society. It's frightening really.

Think about it this way though.

You pay a doctor to heal you because you cannot be bothered with it yourself. Not necessarily because you are unwilling or lazy but because it takes years of education and practice to do so. You pay police and soldiers to protect you, teachers and professors to educate your children on matters you cannot, etc, etc.

We pay politicians to run our government because we ourselves cannot and will not. We are not economists, we do not have degrees in political sciences. We chose different paths.

Remember this though...we our are governments and we our are politicians.

We can speak of change or revolution all we want but when push comes to shove we don't have a new model to replace the old one. We can speak of the flaws of our politicians but at the end of the day we know we are as fallible and weak as they are.

Can anyone here honestly say they could do a better job? Would you even want to be given the chance and responsibility? Can anyone honestly say they cannot be bought and have no price? That they are without compromise?

[Cadetak]

ReincarnatedNobody, on 05 November 2009 - 12:19 AM, said:

I would only hope, that people like you will consider giving it another go. You're not the only one that's been through the fire. We've all seen our fair share of war and peace, in one way or another. How many of us would rather have peace over war? I would rather have peace as well, but not at the cost of my soul. What's the cost of said peace? What's its true nature? Maybe it's all subjective but maybe there is a standard we can compare it to. Settling for what's merely available is taking the path of least resistance, and in war, the cunning opponent will do what it can to get his opponent to resort to it. There's too much at stake for all of us just to settle for the lesser of two evils. Good can only maintain its light through consistent care and vigilance.

At some point in time you will realize that the fight is never finished, it never ends.

This post has been edited by Cadetak: 05 November 2009 - 09:58 AM

[Br Cornelius]

Cadetak, on 05 November 2009 - 09:46 AM, said:

Think about it this way though.

You pay a doctor to heal you because you cannot be bothered with it yourself. Not necessarily because you are unwilling or lazy but because it takes years of education and practice to do so. You pay police and soldiers to protect you, teachers and professors to educate your children on matters you cannot, etc, etc.

We pay politicians to run our government because we ourselves cannot and will not. We are not economists, we do not have degrees in political sciences. We chose different paths.

Remember this though...we our are governments and we our are politicians.

We can speak of change or revolution all we want but when push comes to shove we don't have a new model to replace the old one. We can speak of the flaws of our politicians but at the end of the day we know we are as fallible and weak as they are.

Can anyone here honestly say they could do a better job? Would you even want to be given the chance and responsibility? Can anyone honestly say they cannot be bought and have no price? That they are without compromise?

Anyone can have an informed opinion on anything, you don't have to be an expert in every field. By relinquishing any knowledge of the decisions which might have a prefound effect on your life, you have accepted your role as sheepie commoditie and if that is the case then those "who have the inside dope" will treat you as such. To be treated as a stupid beast is not nice and not good for society.
There are plenty of good ideas about how we could conduct ourselves in a more intelligent way - but there are incredibly powerful interests which profit from having a dumbed down society. The cards are stacked against a good outcome because those who have all the cards would serve to lose the most by change. It is wrong to say that there are not better alternatives and that no-one has though about the practical issues, but it is almost impossible to effect change until the mass of the population become aware of the sheer stupidity of how we conduct ourselves at present. Only after a period of mass enlightenment can change be effected - and ultimately that is down to the indiuvidual to seek enlightenment of their own situation and the human condition which creates our problems.

Stupidity is the enemy and intelligence is the solution - it is in all our hands to take up the challenge and expand their minds.

Br Cornelius

[Cadetak]

Br Cornelius, on 05 November 2009 - 05:20 AM, said:

Anyone can have an informed opinion on anything, you don't have to be an expert in every field. By relinquishing any knowledge of the decisions which might have a prefound effect on your life, you have accepted your role as sheepie commoditie and if that is the case then those "who have the inside dope" will treat you as such. To be treated as a stupid beast is not nice and not good for society.
There are plenty of good ideas about how we could conduct ourselves in a more intelligent way - but there are incredibly powerful interests which profit from having a dumbed down society. The cards are stacked against a good outcome because those who have all the cards would serve to lose the most by change. It is wrong to say that there are not better alternatives and that no-one has though about the practical issues, but it is almost impossible to effect change until the mass of the population become aware of the sheer stupidity of how we conduct ourselves at present. Only after a period of mass enlightenment can change be effected - and ultimately that is down to the indiuvidual to seek enlightenment of their own situation and the human condition which creates our problems.

Br Cornelius

Sure the general public's informed decision is enough for some realms of government. However how much can the average person know about the more complex issues such as world economics or foreign affairs? Sure we may understand parts of the picture but we really only seem to pretend to know what we are talking about.

I think we need to admit that at some level that we as citizens only have the slightest clue and that we should leave the complexities to the experts. However with that said, we shoudl be knowledgeable enough to call bullpoo when we smell it.

The change you speak of only happens through force. It will only happen when it absolutely has to.

Quote

Stupidity is the enemy and intelligence is the solution - it is in all our hands to take up the challenge and expand their minds.

Of course I have to ask who is 'us' and who is 'they'. Your rational and your logic may seem right and good to you...but everybody thinks they are the smarter ones.

I agree with you, say we spread are ideas and we become the next Gandhi...but the same ideologies may lead us to become the next Hitlers.

[Br Cornelius]

Cadetak, on 05 November 2009 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sure the general public's informed decision is enough for some realms of government. However how much can the average person know about the more complex issues such as world economics or foreign affairs? Sure we may understand parts of the picture but we really only seem to pretend to know what we are talking about.

I think we need to admit that at some level that we as citizens only have the slightest clue and that we should leave the complexities to the experts. However with that said, we shoudl be knowledgeable enough to call bullpoo when we smell it.

The change you speak of only happens through force. It will only happen when it absolutely has to.



Of course I have to ask who is 'us' and who is 'they'. Your rational and your logic may seem right and good to you...but everybody thinks they are the smarter ones.

I agree with you, say we spread are ideas and we become the next Gandhi...but the same ideologies may lead us to become the next Hitlers.

Intelligence is the absence of a reference ideology- its about about thinking through the rational consequences of a decision, ideology is plain lazy thinking and cannot account for all of the possible outcomes as they evolve. So no ideology should be used.

If more people understood just a bit more about economics then we definately wouldn't be in the mess we are currently in. They would also realise that the federal reserve system acts as a built in tax levied on the population by the international bankers (money for nothing), and it creates thebust and boom cycles we experience. They might be very angrey if they just new a bit more about what goes on behind their backs. Can you see why it might be advantagous to make it look more complex than it really is.

Br Corfnelius

[preacherman76]

Cadetak, on 05 November 2009 - 05:46 AM, said:

Think about it this way though.

You pay a doctor to heal you because you cannot be bothered with it yourself. Not necessarily because you are unwilling or lazy but because it takes years of education and practice to do so. You pay police and soldiers to protect you, teachers and professors to educate your children on matters you cannot, etc, etc.

We pay politicians to run our government because we ourselves cannot and will not. We are not economists, we do not have degrees in political sciences. We chose different paths.

Remember this though...we our are governments and we our are politicians.

We can speak of change or revolution all we want but when push comes to shove we don't have a new model to replace the old one. We can speak of the flaws of our politicians but at the end of the day we know we are as fallible and weak as they are.

Can anyone here honestly say they could do a better job? Would you even want to be given the chance and responsibility? Can anyone honestly say they cannot be bought and have no price? That they are without compromise?

I can, and I wouldnt have any hesitation to run all those corupted criminals outta town day one. We dont need a better model, a better plan, we just have to go back to basics. Back to freedom. Remove power not granted, its really just as simple as that. We have to instill in the children the extreme importance of our foundation, our "sweet land of liberty". I and I have to believe thier would be many others, that would consider it a honor to properly serve the American people. Not rule over, but serve. Its your kinda thinking that has let these criminals get away with what they have. If everyone stood and expected better of our government, it would happen. But we cant do that cause of how hard they have worked to divide us. That is the real obstical, to awaken the people to the truths around them.

I dont desire money, I hunger after independance, and the strength in freedoms ring.

[Br Cornelius]

Ideology looks at a problem and references predetermined belief in order to make policy. It then procede to ignore all evinced which doesn't support those beliefs regardless of the outcome.
The War on Drugs is a classic example, it is the belief that certain drugs are wrong so we make them illegal. This creates crime and indirect crime (burglery, muggings) which cost the victims disproportionally more than the crime is worth to the criminal - which in turn becomes a social cost in the form of insurance premiums. Then there is the damage it does to the environment, and the damage it does to the credability of the authorities, and the costs in policing the law and incarcerating the "criminal". All this could be avoided if the ideology was discarded and it was admitted that there will always be a small proportion of drug users and that the best way to manage them is to have a controlled source. Crime and costs to society simply disappear and the outcome for the drug user is better.

This is a simple example of where ideology lets us down very badly.

Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

BR I agree with alot of what you said here. And forgive me if Im wrong, but are you saying freedom is a ideology to be avoided?? Was that in responce to my post??

[Br Cornelius]

preacherman76, on 05 November 2009 - 12:07 PM, said:

BR I agree with alot of what you said here. And forgive me if Im wrong, but are you saying freedom is a ideology to be avoided?? Was that in responce to my post??

No I believe freedom is the continuned obligation to be aware of what is going on around you and to respond to threats to that freedom. If you turn it into an ideology without understanding its meaning then you have lost that freedom in the process.
Freedom is realising that you are not free to do just what you like, bujt you have obligations to everyone else.

Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

Br Cornelius, on 05 November 2009 - 09:06 AM, said:

No I believe freedom is the continuned obligation to be aware of what is going on around you and to respond to threats to that freedom. If you turn it into an ideology without understanding its meaning then you have lost that freedom in the process.
Freedom is realising that you are not free to do just what you like, bujt you have obligations to everyone else.

Br Cornelius

I couldnt agree more. The mind must be set free as a society as well as the individual, in order for there to be real freedom. Most folks think cause Im a christian that I opose say for instance, gay marrage. Though I do not agree with that life style, and speak openly about it to others. And even go so far as to say it is harmful to society, I would never try to form legislation against it. Gods greatest gift to man besides salvation, is free will. Who is man to take what God has freely given to all? Many Christians fall into a trap of thinking thier way is the only way all people must live. Yet they cant understand why those same folks they try to surpress, dont come to thier aid when thier freedoms are in danger. To those people I feel pity, knowing they dont really understand the freedom they proclaim.

[conspiracybeliever]

marabod, on 05 November 2009 - 03:53 AM, said:

Thats only because I treasure social peace - because differently from the young passionate home-grown che gevaras here, I've been through crisis, deaths, interrogations, revolution and barricades, and I honestly say that I like social peace, harmony and order much more. Even if I cannot understand how they up there manage to maintain it. We have different experiences, you never had a problem of buying food and never were risking your life when just walking with the dog. After I myself was once fighting against a "bad" government, I realized that it is better to have a bad one than none.

I don't know where you are from or what you have been through or what you think you've found, this thing you call social peace? Harmony and order? I'm in the United States. I am fighting a bad government NOW. What are you saying here? You have social peace and harmony in your little space so you are going to stand behind a government that is destroying the lives of people all around you because they must have a good reason for doing what they are doing and you have social peace and harmony so you aren't going to question anything they do? They must be doing something right because you have that social peace and harmony? Is that what you're saying? I really don't understand what you are saying here. Could you explain?

[conspiracybeliever]

Cadetak, on 05 November 2009 - 09:46 AM, said:

Think about it this way though.

You pay a doctor to heal you because you cannot be bothered with it yourself. Not necessarily because you are unwilling or lazy but because it takes years of education and practice to do so. You pay police and soldiers to protect you, teachers and professors to educate your children on matters you cannot, etc, etc.

We pay politicians to run our government because we ourselves cannot and will not. We are not economists, we do not have degrees in political sciences. We chose different paths.

Remember this though...we our are governments and we our are politicians.

We can speak of change or revolution all we want but when push comes to shove we don't have a new model to replace the old one. We can speak of the flaws of our politicians but at the end of the day we know we are as fallible and weak as they are.

Can anyone here honestly say they could do a better job? Would you even want to be given the chance and responsibility? Can anyone honestly say they cannot be bought and have no price? That they are without compromise?

Would you hire any of the people you speak of above to do any of these jobs and stand by and, for instance, let your doctor remove part of another persons body, a part that would cripple that person, just to make yours a little bit better? A part that you don't really need for any real purpose, but you can take it so you will? Maybe you could sell it. Would you pay a doctor to steal part of another human being so you could make a profit?

[marabod]

conspiracybeliever, on 06 November 2009 - 02:04 AM, said:

I don't know where you are from or what you have been through or what you think you've found, this thing you call social peace? Harmony and order? I'm in the United States. I am fighting a bad government NOW. What are you saying here? You have social peace and harmony in your little space so you are going to stand behind a government that is destroying the lives of people all around you because they must have a good reason for doing what they are doing and you have social peace and harmony so you aren't going to question anything they do? They must be doing something right because you have that social peace and harmony? Is that what you're saying? I really don't understand what you are saying here. Could you explain?

What one may "fight" in USA at the moment can be only windmills. I haven't heard of any fight in this country, to me it is precisely in the state of peace, order and harmony. If you are unable to distinguish between the peace and war, means you did not have a chance to experience the difference between them, nothing else. Is you street showing dead bodies every morning? Do some people come to your house amid the night to search it? How many times a week police detains you for document check? Is there a curfew in your town? Can you hear remote shoot-outs? Do you have food rationing introduced? If not - it is peace and order.