[Mattshark]

draconic chronicler, on 28 October 2009 - 12:12 AM, said:

Dr. Jones cited Inuit legends of great creatures (that Jones defines as 'dragons' that raided villages and devoured people. Somehow I don't think Stellers Sea Eagles can do that.

Dr. Jones book is also slated by others in anthropology as being rubbish. Your whole argument rests on that one unsupported book. That ain't going to get you anywhere.

[draconic chronicler]

Ebonykrow, on 27 October 2009 - 07:24 AM, said:

Personally, I think it's a stretch to state all cultures. To that, the answer is no. But to some cultures? Yes.

In my opinion! These "living dinosaurs" are dinosaurs, but they did not survive extinction. They're residents of another universe, that at regular periods comes into contact with our universe. Certain dinosaurs are regularly sifted between the two, at "way stations", where they are deposited and picked up. Such as the Burunjor in Austuralia, the Ropen in New Guinea, Mokele Mbembe in the Congo, saber-toothed cats in other remote regions of Africa, even thunderbirds of North America. Maybe even Bigfoot and Nessie are universal time-skippers. But, most of these creatures are confined to one specific place, and appear in patterns.

They are so much apart of certain cultures that it's ridiculous to suggest they weren't real, that they wouldn't have seen them and that they simply would have made them up. IT IS, however, also easy to suggest that many of these cultures were simply seeing fossils, and based living representations based on the bones. We know ancient Greeks did this, why not other cultures? But, people are still witnessing something inexplicable today, and every single sighting (also given the amount of credible people who have witnessed such curiosities) cannot be written off as a misidentified animal, a hallucination, or something so ridiculously simple it's disrespectful to the eye-witness.

Do I think a lot of people are seeing something unexplainable? A real, living dinosaur? Yes.

Do I think all people are seeing something unexplainable? A real, living dinosaur? No.

But I don't expect my opinion to be openly accepted. I admit, it is a stretch (even for me!), but I'm eager to learn more about these possible time-skips. If a pattern could be discovered between credible sightings of certain creatures, who knows what we could find? Who knows what we could anticipate.

You are only partly right about the Greeks. They did see Mammoth bones and believed they were the bones of cyclops and heroes of long ago, BUT that they did not still live in thier own time. On the contrary, they actually reported seeing living Gryphons and drakons. The ancient Greek gryphons often looked very reptilian, with back spines, belly scutes and green in color, suggesting they may have been seeing reptiles from afar, but because of their talons, imagined them as a composite reptile/bird/feline.

But so many of these ancient accounts suggest these are no mere 'dumb' animals. They were often regarded as gods and all over the world there are accounts of them interacting with humans. The highly sophisticated Chinese speak of them giving rides to emperors in official histories, and there are documents regarding the appointment of civil servants who served visiting dragons. 'Dragons gods' supposedly taught humans laws, technologies, etc. Even the god of the hebrews who brought them laws is described breathing fire, flying with huge wings, and ordering an idol of a winged 'serpent'. Over half the world population acknowledged this 'dragon god' as a real entity. But perahps they are from 'another universe' which may be the "heaven" of so many cultures where these 'dragons' are said to dwell.... even in ancient Judao-Christian scriptures now 'swept under the carpet'.

[draconic chronicler]

Mattshark, on 27 October 2009 - 07:29 PM, said:

Dr. Jones book is also slated by others in anthropology as being rubbish. Your whole argument rests on that one unsupported book. That ain't going to get you anywhere.

Some anthropologists may think his "dragon theory" is rubbish, and I AGREE!!!

But NO anthropologist has stated he made up his source material... to wit: Cultures all over the world believed in eerily similar 'dragons'. And you can find this fact anywhere, and you should know this.

So what exactly is your point?

[Mattshark]

draconic chronicler, on 28 October 2009 - 12:36 AM, said:

Some anthropologists may think his "dragon theory" is rubbish, and I AGREE!!!

But NO anthropologist has stated he made up his source material... to wit: Cultures all over the world believed in eerily similar 'dragons'. And you can find this fact anywhere, and you should know this.

So what exactly is your point?

That you are over reliant on that book

[draconic chronicler]

Mattshark, on 27 October 2009 - 08:58 PM, said:

That you are over reliant on that book

Not at all, I have just told you I don't believe his theory either.

But he is a real anthropologist, and his cited sources of dragon legends and beliefs all over the world is a great single source, and more reputable than some "Big Golden Book of Dragons" written by a layman.

You should know by now that these dragon legends are found all over the place, but here we have it all in the book of a scientist.

So I will say it again. Are you purporting he made up his evidence? Just give us on example. Even his colleagues DO NOT make that claim, and they are FAR more familiar with the subject matter than you are.

[667-Neighbor of the Beast]

Again, this is degrading into another argument on dragons. The point of this thread is questioning whether the reports of supposed thunderbirds could actually be dragons.
I would say absolutely not. Most of the cultures that have legends of thunderbirds also have legends of dragons. If they were one and the same, I don't think there would be legends of two seperate creatures.
But, again, I emphasize, that there is no proof that thunderbirds exist, nor proof that dragons exist. So trying to explain one cryptid by plugging in another is ridiculous. A MUCH more rational explanation is the Steller Sea Eagle, which matched descriptions and pictures from the show almost exactly, and it's size would only have to be slightly blown out of proportion. That was the conclusion at the end of the show from several experts, and the DT team. It makes the most sense, is scientifically rational and possible, so I see no reason to try and make it into something it is not.

This post has been edited by 667-Neighbor of the Beast: 28 October 2009 - 03:55 PM

[The Big Boss]

Corp, on 27 October 2009 - 11:19 AM, said:

I wouldn't think repitles of any sort would do well in Alaska.

I don't think anything does well in Alaska.

[NightMoon]

I need to come back here later. At first I'm not sure about this subject because there have been a lot of bird extinctions and some dwell in myths and legends. However saying that there are reported sightings of strange birds.

[draconic chronicler]

667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 28 October 2009 - 10:53 AM, said:

Again, this is degrading into another argument on dragons. The point of this thread is questioning whether the reports of supposed thunderbirds could actually be dragons.
I would say absolutely not. Most of the cultures that have legends of thunderbirds also have legends of dragons. If they were one and the same, I don't think there would be legends of two seperate creatures.
But, again, I emphasize, that there is no proof that thunderbirds exist, nor proof that dragons exist. So trying to explain one cryptid by plugging in another is ridiculous. A MUCH more rational explanation is the Steller Sea Eagle, which matched descriptions and pictures from the show almost exactly, and it's size would only have to be slightly blown out of proportion. That was the conclusion at the end of the show from several experts, and the DT team. It makes the most sense, is scientifically rational and possible, so I see no reason to try and make it into something it is not.

It has been established that there were already Inuit legends of huge monsters attacking villages and devouring people, and there are even accounts of the population of a whole village simply vanishing. Obviously, this is not the work of 'Sea Eagles'. Apparently at least one witness in the recent case described it as a reptilian creature as the drawing indicated, and MANY of the "giant flying creature" sightings describe a creature with leathery wings that is not a bird.

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 29 October 2009 - 12:33 PM

[ShotofPoison]

I believe in cryptids, but I do not believe that the Thunderbird is real. I am Native Canadian. When I was a child my mom explained, to me, that the sound of thunder was the Thunderbirds wings flapping... According to oral legends. It also controlled the rain. But scientifically we all know that is not true. However, looking at illustrations and stuff (I've seen them on dream catches and drums) maybe there was sightings back in the day? We can only speculate. I do sometimes wonder where the inspiration for such illustrations and legends had come from... Someone had to have seen something or something similar to a Thunderbird to get inspiration.

Do I think that it was dragons? Probably not. It could've been an oversized bird seen during a storm. Nobody knows for sure.

[Katherine of Aragon]

draconic chronicler, on 29 October 2009 - 01:32 PM, said:

It has been established that there were already Inuit legends of huge monsters attacking villages and devouring people, and there are even accounts of the population of a whole village simply vanishing. Obviously, this is not the work of 'Sea Eagles'. Apparently at least one witness in the recent case described it as a reptilian creature as the drawing indicated, and MANY of the "giant flying creature" sightings describe a creature with leathery wings that is not a bird.

Let us not forget that legends are not actually true, verified accounts. Furthermore, the famous account of the 'disappearing' Inuit village is a proven hoax:

Anjikuni Village

[draconic chronicler]

Katherine of Aragon, on 29 October 2009 - 02:07 PM, said:

Let us not forget that legends are not actually true, verified accounts. Furthermore, the famous account of the 'disappearing' Inuit village is a proven hoax:

Anjikuni Village

Why am I not surprised the RCMP would deny it happened, when it would mean an unsolved case on their books?

[draconic chronicler]

ShotofPoison, on 29 October 2009 - 12:41 PM, said:

I believe in cryptids, but I do not believe that the Thunderbird is real. I am Native Canadian. When I was a child my mom explained, to me, that the sound of thunder was the Thunderbirds wings flapping... According to oral legends. It also controlled the rain. But scientifically we all know that is not true. However, looking at illustrations and stuff (I've seen them on dream catches and drums) maybe there was sightings back in the day? We can only speculate. I do sometimes wonder where the inspiration for such illustrations and legends had come from... Someone had to have seen something or something similar to a Thunderbird to get inspiration.

Do I think that it was dragons? Probably not. It could've been an oversized bird seen during a storm. Nobody knows for sure.

Dragons in many cultures are believed to be controllers of the weather, the oriental dragons being the most familiar. Recall that these peoples came across the Bering Sea from the orient, and that there are pictographs of dragon like creatures in the Americas. One of the most famous being the so-called Piasa, a scale covered, bat winged dragon like beast that in some stories actually allied itself with one tribe against another, and carried off the chiefs of the opposing tribe in battle.

Could they actually bring rain? I doubt it. But if they were intelligent as accounts both east and west claim, with their flying ability they could easily 'trick' the humans in believing they could bring rain, by seeing coming storms long before the humans did.

Of course, the modern renditions on totem poles and windcatchers of 'thunderbirds' look like big birds. That is what the anglo tourists expect, and will buy.

[maximaldecimal]

As for the topic of the op I would throw out a big could be. I think the whole thunderbird concept brings to mind draconic elementals of which I am a believer. I would also like to comment on Ebony Krow's post earlier. I think that if these things could exist in another dimension than there would not need to be a time discrepency. While time could move different in a primordial or elemental realm this other dimension could be happening in real time and could simply be a mode of camoflauge for anything with access to it. I also think these dragons or elemental beings could be present in the very clouds, earth, water, and fire. As such they may be more of a religious concept then a real one. I am optomistic that species similar to these beings could still exist in a real world setting, but if such a thing did exist in the real world it would most likely be tied more to a real world taxonomy, i.e. not quite so magical. Yet here again I would have to put out a could be. Whilst improbable by modern standards that does not rule out a possibility however small it may seem.

This post has been edited by maximaldecimal: 29 October 2009 - 10:05 PM

[Katherine of Aragon]

draconic chronicler, on 29 October 2009 - 10:34 PM, said:

Why am I not surprised the RCMP would deny it happened, when it would mean an unsolved case on their books?

It is not only the RCMP that denies it. It is denied by everyone save the original hoaxer and the dubious publications to which he told his tale. It didn't happen.