[draconic chronicler]

maximaldecimal, on 29 October 2009 - 05:03 PM, said:

As for the topic of the op I would throw out a big could be. I think the whole thunderbird concept brings to mind draconic elementals of which I am a believer. I would also like to comment on Ebony Krow's post earlier. I think that if these things could exist in another dimension than there would not need to be a time discrepency. While time could move different in a primordial or elemental realm this other dimension could be happening in real time and could simply be a mode of camoflauge for anything with access to it. I also think these dragons or elemental beings could be present in the very clouds, earth, water, and fire. As such they may be more of a religious concept then a real one. I am optomistic that species similar to these beings could still exist in a real world setting, but if such a thing did exist in the real world it would most likely be tied more to a real world taxonomy, i.e. not quite so magical. Yet here again I would have to put out a could be. Whilst improbable by modern standards that does not rule out a possibility however small it may seem.

I would say they are real flesh and blood creatures, even if they have the ability to move from one dimension to another. There are so many accounts of them eating food, and even showing a fondness for alcoholic beverages. This of course, does not mean any human has ever killed one. But what creature would make a more impressive boast than claiming to 'slay' a dragon? Ironically, most of the 'dragonslayer' gods appear to have been dragons themselves when fully researched. Even the Biblical Yahweh is described breathing fire from his mouth, having big wings, feeding on virgins, calves and first born cildren, hoarding gold and even ordering Moses to build his idol of a 'fiery flying serpent'. Many early Christians, and Persian Zoroastrians all identified Yahweh as a great and terrible dragon.

[ShotofPoison]

draconic chronicler, on 29 October 2009 - 03:43 PM, said:

Dragons in many cultures are believed to be controllers of the weather, the oriental dragons being the most familiar. Recall that these peoples came across the Bering Sea from the orient, and that there are pictographs of dragon like creatures in the Americas. One of the most famous being the so-called Piasa, a scale covered, bat winged dragon like beast that in some stories actually allied itself with one tribe against another, and carried off the chiefs of the opposing tribe in battle.Could they actually bring rain? I doubt it. But if they were intelligent as accounts both east and west claim, with their flying ability they could easily 'trick' the humans in believing they could bring rain, by seeing coming storms long before the humans did.Of course, the modern renditions on totem poles and windcatchers of 'thunderbirds' look like big birds. That is what the anglo tourists expect, and will buy.

I agree with the modern renditions and stuff, but the images I am talking about had wings that looked like lightning bolts. They were pitch black in colour and they weren't on any totem poles. I'm from Saskatchewan and there are no totem poles around here lol. I have seen many "knock offs" of legends and stuff, but I believe that what I seen is legit as it came from my own people. As did the legends which have been passed on orally for years. I can, however, admit that oral legends often change and some stories don't remain the same. I am, by no means, an expert on the teachings of my people, but I do know some stuff.

My culture has spoken about serpents or lizards (mostly giant snakes). There is a Native culture that believes in a snake that is able to create the sound of thunder and emit storms (Ojibwe - I am from a dialect of Ojibwe called Saulteaux). I cannot recall the name of the beast, but there are several similar serpents with different names.

And again I am left wondering where such inspiration for all of this has come from. The similarities between different cultures beliefs in similar creatures makes me wonder a lot. Why would different cultures around the world speak of beasts that are quite similar? It's not just aboriginal cultures, but more notably Asian cultures and even in folklore.

I read one theory that obviously such creatures may not be able to create storms and due to the size of alleged creatures their wing spans would be huge and they may not be able to fly... But if they're known to cause storms, control weather, or generally just be spotted during storms they might be relying on wind currents and drafts to fly. This could be why they are associated with storms and this could be why the Thunderbird has been dubbed the Thunderbird.

Which brings me back to my original question. Are Thunderbirds winged reptiles or dragons? Probably not if there are legends of serpents or reptile-like beasts.

[667-Neighbor of the Beast]

draconic chronicler, on 29 October 2009 - 08:32 AM, said:

It has been established that there were already Inuit legends of huge monsters attacking villages and devouring people, and there are even accounts of the population of a whole village simply vanishing. Obviously, this is not the work of 'Sea Eagles'. Apparently at least one witness in the recent case described it as a reptilian creature as the drawing indicated, and MANY of the "giant flying creature" sightings describe a creature with leathery wings that is not a bird.

You seem to be concentrating and emphasizing the ONE description that mentions it as a reptilian creature, even though somehow I missed that. What about the dozens, if not hundreds of witnesses that describe it as a large feathered bird, hence the name thunderBIRD. I don't think trying to ignore the vast majority of reports, and concentrating on the one person is a very good backing for your theory. And I don't think anyone is blaming the disappearance of an entire village on any single creature, or claiming that any living entity is responsible at all. They are reported as vanished, not eaten by a big bird. Linking a missing village to the legend of the thunderbird, then plugging in a dragon as the thunderbird, is all just too far fetched to be a rational explanation. And the show that I saw did not have any witnesses reporting attacks from thunderbirds on humans, simply sightings.
The legend of the thunderbird is most likely a mistaken identity, the sea eagles, and the missing village is another mystery altogether that is completely seperate from this subject.

[maximaldecimal]

I would argue that a bird of gigantic proportions would still be borderline draconic. Like the tails of the gryphon or the roc. These may be avian in nature but that does not rule out the possibility that they came from a lizard ancestory. Like the arguement that the dinosaurs evolved into birds and mammals. There are links in between in the genetic lines like Archaeopteryx and other bird-like dinosaurs. This could beg the fact that birdlike lizards did exist, why then could they not adapt in some fashion. I also thought I'd add the wiki link on feathered dinosaurs for posterity.

bird-like dinosaurs link

[draconic chronicler]

maximaldecimal, on 30 October 2009 - 02:41 PM, said:

I would argue that a bird of gigantic proportions would still be borderline draconic. Like the tails of the gryphon or the roc. These may be avian in nature but that does not rule out the possibility that they came from a lizard ancestory. Like the arguement that the dinosaurs evolved into birds and mammals. There are links in between in the genetic lines like Archaeopteryx and other bird-like dinosaurs. This could beg the fact that birdlike lizards did exist, why then could they not adapt in some fashion. I also thought I'd add the wiki link on feathered dinosaurs for posterity.

bird-like dinosaurs link

True, and many medieval european dragons have wings with feathers, and sometimes even fur.

[667-Neighbor of the Beast]

Yes, but then we go back to the original point of this thread. Could a giant creature, reported for centuries as a giant bird, be suddenly transformed into a giant reptile because of one witness report? Very large stretch. Why try to change the legend because of one persons report, and ignore the hundreds of reports describing it as a bird?? IF there is a large winged creature that does exist in parts of the world where the thunderbirds are reported, evidence and witness reports overwhelmingly demand that it would be a bird, not a dragon in any definition of the word. It is simply a matter of numbers, and 99.99% of witnesses describe a bird, not a reptile.

[draconic chronicler]

667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 30 October 2009 - 03:09 PM, said:

Yes, but then we go back to the original point of this thread. Could a giant creature, reported for centuries as a giant bird, be suddenly transformed into a giant reptile because of one witness report? Very large stretch. Why try to change the legend because of one persons report, and ignore the hundreds of reports describing it as a bird?? IF there is a large winged creature that does exist in parts of the world where the thunderbirds are reported, evidence and witness reports overwhelmingly demand that it would be a bird, not a dragon in any definition of the word. It is simply a matter of numbers, and 99.99% of witnesses describe a bird, not a reptile.

That's not true. There are a number of modern accounts in which the creature is described with leathery wings and not like a bird. The texas sightings are a good example. Plus, from a distance, most people will naturally assume a large flying creature must be a bird. I missed the Destination Truth episode, except for a preview, in which the artist's conception looking like a 'furry dragon' was shown.

[draconic chronicler]

667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 30 October 2009 - 01:55 PM, said:

You seem to be concentrating and emphasizing the ONE description that mentions it as a reptilian creature, even though somehow I missed that. What about the dozens, if not hundreds of witnesses that describe it as a large feathered bird, hence the name thunderBIRD. I don't think trying to ignore the vast majority of reports, and concentrating on the one person is a very good backing for your theory. And I don't think anyone is blaming the disappearance of an entire village on any single creature, or claiming that any living entity is responsible at all. They are reported as vanished, not eaten by a big bird. Linking a missing village to the legend of the thunderbird, then plugging in a dragon as the thunderbird, is all just too far fetched to be a rational explanation. And the show that I saw did not have any witnesses reporting attacks from thunderbirds on humans, simply sightings.
The legend of the thunderbird is most likely a mistaken identity, the sea eagles, and the missing village is another mystery altogether that is completely seperate from this subject.

In some native dialects, any flying creature may be referred to as a kind of bird. And what would they call a pterodactyl if they saw one? Or a dragon? Probably just another kind of 'bird'. It is probably no coincidence that natives coming from asia would acknowledge the same weather controlling dragons as the natives of ancient asia. If these creatures were no longer seen, then over the years a large, normal bird may have become s surrogate for the weather-controlling 'dragon'.

There are many unexplained disappearances in Alaska. It is a big place and easy to get 'lost' , but perhaps a giant predator present might increase the possibility of 'disappearing'.

[Sir_Quack_The_Wack]

Abramelin, on 27 October 2009 - 09:40 PM, said:

I am beginning to believe any ancient winged reptiles WERE a type of bat, as traditionally theorised back in the 1800s.

Then again, maybe I don't have much credibility, I still put belief in the Charles Knight creatures.

[NdnQt]

Good day, I'm new to this website and forum and was researching any information on a particular haunted mental hospital in Sask, when I came across this dicussion thread.

First off, so that you fully understand my background, I'll explain a little bit about who I am for you. I am a First Nations (native american for you Americans) Cree woman from a reserve called Little Black Bear located near Fort Qu'Appelle,SK. I try to practice my tradtional Cree ways, this meaning that my family carries some of the oral teachings that have been referenced here in earlier posts, therefore, I hope I can provide you with a little clarification on this subject.

First off, our spiritual protocols require that if you truly want to understand and know about the Thunderbirds, then you need to take an offering of tobacco to a traditional First Nation elder, and ask them, because it is only in this way that you can truly discuss anything of a spiritual nature from among our First Nation cultures.

Therefore, please do so. I understand your inquisitiveness regarding this question of what the Thunderbird is, could it be of a prehistoric past, is it reptilian in nature, etc. and that is perfectly fine, in fact we welcome it! But you must inquire in a manner that is respectful to my people, to our traditional teachings and customs, and not in a thread like this.

However, there are a few things that I think I can clear up and not cause my Elder's any distress in mentioning something like this on the internet.

While I am a traditional Cree woman, I also have attended the University of Regina in the area of Psychology and Indigenous Studies, so please do not mistake me for some uneducated backwoods person as much of what I will post here will come across as extremely superstitious. Here are a few things to clear up your questions regarding Thunderbirds:

First: they are not reptiles, they are as the name implies: birds or bird-like beings.
Second: they are not prehistoric dinosaurs or descendants thereof to my knowledge, but if they are then they are Spiritual prehistoric descendants
Third: they do exist and have been seen by many people today
Fourth: they are spiritual beings, therefore this is why you cannot track them, locate their habitation, or locate their "remains".

Beyond this I cannot post more information because of our cultural protocols. I can however tell you that in reference to my third point that when I say they have been seen by many people, I of course mean by First Nation people today. My husband's family comes from a very tradtional ancestor: Chief Starblanket. One of Chief Starblanket's direct descendants was Victor Starr. He and his wife died in the late 90's (1998 I believe is the date). Chief Victor Starr had a traditional wake and funeral and was attended by very many people as he was well known and respected as a First Nation leader and Elder in my area. It is at his funeral that the Thunderbirds appeared flying above the Lebret Eagle dome. They were witnessed by all who attended, including those "white" people who attended and happened to be standing outside when it occurred (there were very many dignitaries at his funeral such as various Ministers, MP's, and other provincial, municipal, and federal representatives). All who witnessed the flying by of the Thunderbirds described them as birds similar to an eagle, or falcon, very large, because even though they were flying overhead, many people present could see them clear as day and see the details in their heads and wingspans. I was told by my husband (who is Victor's grandson and was one of the pallbearers for his grandfather) that when he saw the Thunderbirds, prior to their arrival, the day was as clear and sunny as can be, and these clouds started suddenly to roll in. At the front of the clouds flew three Thunderbirds, and it was these Thunderbirds that my husband and his family saw. Thunder announced their arrival, and the day became overcast for the few minutes that the Thunderbirds flew over head. They flew by once, soared briefly, and then left. The day cleared as soon as they disappeared.

This is not heresay, this story is true. There were many witnesses beyond my husband, as I said there were many who attended the funeral and wake.

One other thing I will say is this: yes there are serpents that exist - great serpents. These may be the reptiles you refer to, descendants of prehistoric times. HOwever, these serpents are NOT Thunderbirds, and in fact, the Great Thunderbirds hunt these serpents. There are serpents in the lakes and rivers around Fort Qu'Appelle and the river systems that wind all throughout Saskatchewan. It is said that the Thunderbirds hunt these serpents in our area all the time, and in particular they used to hunt during the time of Starblanket's annual powwow, that is why Starblanket Cree Nation has stopped having their powwow, because the ceremony of the powwow would attract the Thunderbird's and serpents, and it rained without fail every year during the powwow. The Elder's advised the powwow committee of this, and therefore the powwow has been cancelled over the last decade or so because if you've never gone to a powwow, it's pretty hard on the campers at the powwow to try and dance and sleep in the rain.

Victor Starr himself experienced one of these great serpents as a young man when he was swimming in Katepwa lake. He told my husband about his experience, however that is not a story that I will post on here as it is for my husband to tell, and not I.


There was also mention of "Bigfoot". I have seen a "Bigfoot" or Sasquatch as they are called in my area. Again, I saw this Sasquatch on the reserve as I was driving to my parent's house on a neighbouring reserve. My area is called the File Hills area, and I am from the Little Black Bear First Nation. I was driving down what we call "boundary road" because it is a road that outlines the boundary between the Star Blanket Cree Nation and the Okanese First Nation as they are positioned side by side. It was mid afternoon, near 2:30 PM or 3:00 PM, sunny and bright, not a cloud in the sky. As I drove down the boundary road with my two cousins sitting in the van with me, I noticed this rather tall "man" off on the right hand side in the distance running through the pasture on Okanese. He was quite far off in the distance, I would say at least 5 km's up the road, yet I could tell that he was extremely tall, which was the first thing I noticed because his strides through the pasture were so large that he was covering the ground quite quickly. My cousin was in the middle seat in the back talking about something, but I continued to watch this man running thorugh the field. I couldn't see what he was wearing at all which is strange. There were no outstanding colours on him, and now when I think back I don't think this being had clothes on and was one colour throughout, what that coulour is, I don't know because he was just a little too far off to determine (it's like he was cloaked in a shadow, which is strange now that I think about it because it was one of the sunniest days I can remember). He cleared the pasture, then ran across the road, and ran into the bush on Starblanket reserve. There was a barbed wire fence just before the bush started, and it never broke his stride. He ran over it. He did NOT jump the fence, he simply stepped over it as he ran. That's when my eyes went huge, and I turned to looka at my other cousin sitting in the passenger seat and I asked him, "did you see that???!!" and he looked at me and he said, "Yeah. What was that?? That wasn't a man I don't think. Was that a Sasquatch?? I think it was" he said. My cousin in the back seat stopped her story and said, "What? I didn't see anyone, what, what did I miss?? Are you guys telling me you just saw a sasquatch and didn't say anything to me!!" And I had to explain to her that I thought it was just a man running across the road until I saw him step over the fence. She was kind of pissed at me and her brother for not bringing it to her attention, but I swear, it looked like a tall, thin man, or at least the silhouette of a tall thin man.

I told my husband about this that afternoon, and he asked me, "Where was this?". I told him that it was just before the turn off to go to what we call the "Village" on StarBlanket. The village is basically just a group of homes located kind of back inside this bush area. When you live on a reserve, you don't normally live near anyone and your closest neighbour is about 10 KM's away, but on Starblanket they have The Village where people have settled and built houses quite in close proximity, hence the name the "Village".

After I told him that, he said, "Yeah, that was probably a sasquatch you saw. We have always been told that we should never hunt in the bushes on the West side of the Village because that is where the Sasquatches live and we don't want to anger them." He went on to explain to me that the Sasquatch is another spiritual being. He also went on to tell me another story about some of his uncles and what happened to them when they went hunting out back there (nothing terrible, they simply stumbled across a sasquatch camp). He told me that all Spiritual beings exist in both this world and the Spirit world, and that is why we cannot find them or locate them unless they want us to. He went on to say that the Sasquatch must have wanted me and my cousin to see him, and that it was a good message (I've also been told that to see a Sasquatch is good luck).


I hope this clarifies things a little for all you readers. Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any other questions. I too have mnay questions and have very few answers, but I am willing to share the little knowledge that I do have with you. My main source of learning and wisdom is my husband and his family, but it is a great wealth of knowledge and a great resource that I know I am lucky to have!

[draconic chronicler]

NdnQt, on 01 November 2009 - 03:56 AM, said:

Good day, I'm new to this website and forum and was researching any information on a particular haunted mental hospital in Sask, when I came across this dicussion thread.

First off, so that you fully understand my background, I'll explain a little bit about who I am for you. I am a First Nations (native american for you Americans) Cree woman from a reserve called Little Black Bear located near Fort Qu'Appelle,SK. I try to practice my tradtional Cree ways, this meaning that my family carries some of the oral teachings that have been referenced here in earlier posts, therefore, I hope I can provide you with a little clarification on this subject.

First off, our spiritual protocols require that if you truly want to understand and know about the Thunderbirds, then you need to take an offering of tobacco to a traditional First Nation elder, and ask them, because it is only in this way that you can truly discuss anything of a spiritual nature from among our First Nation cultures.

Therefore, please do so. I understand your inquisitiveness regarding this question of what the Thunderbird is, could it be of a prehistoric past, is it reptilian in nature, etc. and that is perfectly fine, in fact we welcome it! But you must inquire in a manner that is respectful to my people, to our traditional teachings and customs, and not in a thread like this.

However, there are a few things that I think I can clear up and not cause my Elder's any distress in mentioning something like this on the internet.

While I am a traditional Cree woman, I also have attended the University of Regina in the area of Psychology and Indigenous Studies, so please do not mistake me for some uneducated backwoods person as much of what I will post here will come across as extremely superstitious. Here are a few things to clear up your questions regarding Thunderbirds:

First: they are not reptiles, they are as the name implies: birds or bird-like beings.
Second: they are not prehistoric dinosaurs or descendants thereof to my knowledge, but if they are then they are Spiritual prehistoric descendants
Third: they do exist and have been seen by many people today
Fourth: they are spiritual beings, therefore this is why you cannot track them, locate their habitation, or locate their "remains".

Beyond this I cannot post more information because of our cultural protocols. I can however tell you that in reference to my third point that when I say they have been seen by many people, I of course mean by First Nation people today. My husband's family comes from a very tradtional ancestor: Chief Starblanket. One of Chief Starblanket's direct descendants was Victor Starr. He and his wife died in the late 90's (1998 I believe is the date). Chief Victor Starr had a traditional wake and funeral and was attended by very many people as he was well known and respected as a First Nation leader and Elder in my area. It is at his funeral that the Thunderbirds appeared flying above the Lebret Eagle dome. They were witnessed by all who attended, including those "white" people who attended and happened to be standing outside when it occurred (there were very many dignitaries at his funeral such as various Ministers, MP's, and other provincial, municipal, and federal representatives). All who witnessed the flying by of the Thunderbirds described them as birds similar to an eagle, or falcon, very large, because even though they were flying overhead, many people present could see them clear as day and see the details in their heads and wingspans. I was told by my husband (who is Victor's grandson and was one of the pallbearers for his grandfather) that when he saw the Thunderbirds, prior to their arrival, the day was as clear and sunny as can be, and these clouds started suddenly to roll in. At the front of the clouds flew three Thunderbirds, and it was these Thunderbirds that my husband and his family saw. Thunder announced their arrival, and the day became overcast for the few minutes that the Thunderbirds flew over head. They flew by once, soared briefly, and then left. The day cleared as soon as they disappeared.

This is not heresay, this story is true. There were many witnesses beyond my husband, as I said there were many who attended the funeral and wake.

One other thing I will say is this: yes there are serpents that exist - great serpents. These may be the reptiles you refer to, descendants of prehistoric times. HOwever, these serpents are NOT Thunderbirds, and in fact, the Great Thunderbirds hunt these serpents. There are serpents in the lakes and rivers around Fort Qu'Appelle and the river systems that wind all throughout Saskatchewan. It is said that the Thunderbirds hunt these serpents in our area all the time, and in particular they used to hunt during the time of Starblanket's annual powwow, that is why Starblanket Cree Nation has stopped having their powwow, because the ceremony of the powwow would attract the Thunderbird's and serpents, and it rained without fail every year during the powwow. The Elder's advised the powwow committee of this, and therefore the powwow has been cancelled over the last decade or so because if you've never gone to a powwow, it's pretty hard on the campers at the powwow to try and dance and sleep in the rain.

Victor Starr himself experienced one of these great serpents as a young man when he was swimming in Katepwa lake. He told my husband about his experience, however that is not a story that I will post on here as it is for my husband to tell, and not I.


There was also mention of "Bigfoot". I have seen a "Bigfoot" or Sasquatch as they are called in my area. Again, I saw this Sasquatch on the reserve as I was driving to my parent's house on a neighbouring reserve. My area is called the File Hills area, and I am from the Little Black Bear First Nation. I was driving down what we call "boundary road" because it is a road that outlines the boundary between the Star Blanket Cree Nation and the Okanese First Nation as they are positioned side by side. It was mid afternoon, near 2:30 PM or 3:00 PM, sunny and bright, not a cloud in the sky. As I drove down the boundary road with my two cousins sitting in the van with me, I noticed this rather tall "man" off on the right hand side in the distance running through the pasture on Okanese. He was quite far off in the distance, I would say at least 5 km's up the road, yet I could tell that he was extremely tall, which was the first thing I noticed because his strides through the pasture were so large that he was covering the ground quite quickly. My cousin was in the middle seat in the back talking about something, but I continued to watch this man running thorugh the field. I couldn't see what he was wearing at all which is strange. There were no outstanding colours on him, and now when I think back I don't think this being had clothes on and was one colour throughout, what that coulour is, I don't know because he was just a little too far off to determine (it's like he was cloaked in a shadow, which is strange now that I think about it because it was one of the sunniest days I can remember). He cleared the pasture, then ran across the road, and ran into the bush on Starblanket reserve. There was a barbed wire fence just before the bush started, and it never broke his stride. He ran over it. He did NOT jump the fence, he simply stepped over it as he ran. That's when my eyes went huge, and I turned to looka at my other cousin sitting in the passenger seat and I asked him, "did you see that???!!" and he looked at me and he said, "Yeah. What was that?? That wasn't a man I don't think. Was that a Sasquatch?? I think it was" he said. My cousin in the back seat stopped her story and said, "What? I didn't see anyone, what, what did I miss?? Are you guys telling me you just saw a sasquatch and didn't say anything to me!!" And I had to explain to her that I thought it was just a man running across the road until I saw him step over the fence. She was kind of pissed at me and her brother for not bringing it to her attention, but I swear, it looked like a tall, thin man, or at least the silhouette of a tall thin man.

I told my husband about this that afternoon, and he asked me, "Where was this?". I told him that it was just before the turn off to go to what we call the "Village" on StarBlanket. The village is basically just a group of homes located kind of back inside this bush area. When you live on a reserve, you don't normally live near anyone and your closest neighbour is about 10 KM's away, but on Starblanket they have The Village where people have settled and built houses quite in close proximity, hence the name the "Village".

After I told him that, he said, "Yeah, that was probably a sasquatch you saw. We have always been told that we should never hunt in the bushes on the West side of the Village because that is where the Sasquatches live and we don't want to anger them." He went on to explain to me that the Sasquatch is another spiritual being. He also went on to tell me another story about some of his uncles and what happened to them when they went hunting out back there (nothing terrible, they simply stumbled across a sasquatch camp). He told me that all Spiritual beings exist in both this world and the Spirit world, and that is why we cannot find them or locate them unless they want us to. He went on to say that the Sasquatch must have wanted me and my cousin to see him, and that it was a good message (I've also been told that to see a Sasquatch is good luck).


I hope this clarifies things a little for all you readers. Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any other questions. I too have mnay questions and have very few answers, but I am willing to share the little knowledge that I do have with you. My main source of learning and wisdom is my husband and his family, but it is a great wealth of knowledge and a great resource that I know I am lucky to have!

Thank you for sharing your insights. There are many never Native American beliefs, and some of them do include flying reptilian creatures. The Piasa for example is well known, and ain interpretration of the Native American pictograph depicts is covered in scales and with bat-like wings. It is so dragon-like that one theorist believes it was actually painted by Chinese exporers! And the flying, feathered serpent dieties of Mesoamerica were also established in much of North America as we see in Pueblan and moundbuilder/mississippian cultures. Even the plains indians speak of good, and man-eating, 'evil' thunderbirds. Could the man-eating reptilian/evil 'birds' be flesh and blood creatures rather than spirits since they had to eat? Could some of these beliefs in rain giving sky creatures stem from Asian beliefs of their ancestors? We cannot say. But the asian dragons are as spiritually 'real' to millions just as the birdlike thunderbirds are to your tribe. Navaho legends speak of the Cliff Monsters (Tse Nalyehe) which a native storyteller described 'were like dragons' and that they snatched up people and devoured them (pg 125 Fossil Legends of the first Americans by Adrienne Mayor). Eating people suggests they are more than mere 'spirit' creatures. This book is filled with many legends of monsters which the author believes are based on seeing fossils.

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 01 November 2009 - 02:59 PM

[maximaldecimal]

After reading the story posted by NdnQt, great post by the way, I am reminded of the Feng Huang of Chinese and Japanese stories, also referred to as the Chinese/Japanese pheonix. A Feng Huang was said to have made an appearance at the funeral of the Yellow Emperor, Huangdi. As well as being at odds with the dragons of rivers or Ti Lung. Who represent a different elemental power. In fact the symbols of the bird and the dragon were used to represent the Emperor and Emperess. I've tracked down some descent links on both.

Britannica Feng Huang

Wikki Feng Huang

Britannica lung

This post has been edited by maximaldecimal: 02 November 2009 - 09:42 PM

[lil gremlin]

maximaldecimal, on 02 November 2009 - 09:36 PM, said:

After reading the story posted by NdnQt, great post by the way, I am reminded of the Feng Huang of Chinese and Japanese stories, also referred to as the Chinese/Japanese pheonix. A Feng Huang was said to have made an appearance at the funeral of the Yellow Emperor, Huangdi. As well as being at odds with the dragons of rivers or Ti Lung. Who represent a different elemental power. In fact the symbols of the bird and the dragon were used to represent the Emperor and Emperess. I've tracked down some descent links on both.

Britannica Feng Huang

Wikki Feng Huang

Britannica lung

also reminds me of sri lankan tradition, where a mystical protective bird demon/spirit battles with the evil serpent demon,popularly portrayed in dance...





the serpent vs bird thing is well evidenced in nature, and many cultures...

















http://thediningdiva.typepad.com/the_dining_diva/images/zap_eagle_ii.jpg

this natural phenomenon is (in my opinion) the origin behind pliny's story of dragons and eagles fighting...and other similarly fantastical tales.

[lil gremlin]

..herodotus tells of the ibises that guard against the flying serpents.

[catutie]

[quote name='Clobhair-cean' date='27 October 2009 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1256683029' post='3142658']
I also have no intention of getting dragged into yet another immense and farcical thread about dragons, but I had to do this one post for the sake of steller's sea eagle, which is probably one of the coolest animals most people haven't heard about.


[/quote]

they said this ould be a possibility that people are just seeing steller sea eagles.

i also wondered why they came up with somthing with scales and moe reptilian instead of a giant eagle or bird like other sightings were.