[G3N0M3]

Mattshark, on 02 November 2009 - 08:04 AM, said:

Shaun, I'd suggest neurology and endocrinology to examine this best. All evidence points to thoughts being the result of electro-chemical reactions in the brain.

Sorry Matt, but he was asking questions that science has no way of showing, untill we get the technology.

Otherwise he knows that it is 'electro-chemical' reactions, what he is asking, is why, energy, something non-physical, could "measure" something physcial, through our own receptors, such as eyes, mouth, and skin, and ears.

Also, you should be answering my questions, the real thinkers before you just give us examples, though thank you for your examples. It does not help us too much... Also a question, what type of biology are you studying? Do you know exactly how the brain works? Or did you finish that part of the course yet?

[ChloeB]

G3N0M3, on 02 November 2009 - 12:17 PM, said:

Sorry Matt, but he was asking questions that science has no way of showing, untill we get the technology.

Otherwise he knows that it is 'electro-chemical' reactions, what he is asking, is why, energy, something non-physical, could "measure" something physcial, through our own receptors, such as eyes, mouth, and skin, and ears.

Also, you should be answering my questions, the real thinkers before you just give us examples, though thank you for your examples. It does not help us too much... Also a question, what type of biology are you studying? Do you know exactly how the brain works? Or did you finish that part of the course yet?

Do we really understand where memories are stored? I was reading about an experiment that they made lesions on all different parts of a rats brain, and no matter where they could still remember their way through the maze, supposedly indicating memories are spread throughout not just localized in one area.

[G3N0M3]

Quote

The endocrine system is a system of glands that involve the release of extracellular signaling molecules known as hormones. The endocrine system is instrumental in regulating metabolism, growth, development and puberty, and tissue function and also plays a part in determining mood. ...

- http://en.wikipedia....ndocrine_system

Quote

NounSingular
endocrine system
Plural
endocrine systems
endocrine system (plural endocrine systems)
(physiology) A control system of ductless glands that secrete hormones which circulate via the bloodstream to affect cells within specific organs.

- http://en.wiktionary...ndocrine_system

Quote

Endocrinology is concerned with the study of the biosynthesis, storage, chemistry, and physiological function of hormones and with the cells of the endocrine glands and tissues that secrete them.

- http://en.wikipedia....i/Endocrinology

Sorry, just had to show you what a bit of research does to your post... Which shows, one example, which was the only thing not "commonly" know not to do anything with your brain, your thought processes, and the way you would picture something in your mind... What it does have to deal with is your physical systems of your body, and such is already mentioned... Amines, Protiens, Peptides, and Steroids, which all have to do with your bodys physiological system is what is studied and therfore I don't see how you determine brain function from these chemicals...

[Mattshark]

G3N0M3, on 02 November 2009 - 06:17 PM, said:

Sorry Matt, but he was asking questions that science has no way of showing, untill we get the technology.

Otherwise he knows that it is 'electro-chemical' reactions, what he is asking, is why, energy, something non-physical, could "measure" something physcial, through our own receptors, such as eyes, mouth, and skin, and ears.

Also, you should be answering my questions, the real thinkers before you just give us examples, though thank you for your examples. It does not help us too much... Also a question, what type of biology are you studying? Do you know exactly how the brain works? Or did you finish that part of the course yet?

Well that is why I said evidence rather than it 100% factually is.

I have just finished my masters degree in animals behaviour, I have a bachelors degree in zoology with marine zoology. So brain workings were covered yes, especially in behaviour.

[Mattshark]

G3N0M3, on 02 November 2009 - 06:32 PM, said:

- http://en.wikipedia....ndocrine_system

- http://en.wiktionary...ndocrine_system

- http://en.wikipedia....i/Endocrinology

Sorry, just had to show you what a bit of research does to your post... Which shows, one example, which was the only thing not "commonly" know not to do anything with your brain, your thought processes, and the way you would picture something in your mind... What it does have to deal with is your physical systems of your body, and such is already mentioned... Amines, Protiens, Peptides, and Steroids, which all have to do with your bodys physiological system is what is studied and therfore I don't see how you determine brain function from these chemicals...

Try also hormones which are part of the endocrine system and very much known to affect behaviour and some account for complex emotions too.

This post has been edited by Mattshark: 02 November 2009 - 06:34 PM

[G3N0M3]

Mattshark, on 02 November 2009 - 12:33 PM, said:

Try also hormones which are part of the endocrine system and very much known to affect behaviour and some account for complex emotions too.

Actually I won't mind studying up on the exact deffinitions. But still, posts saying two seperate functions relating with thought processes, and only one having to do with them is a bit weird to say the least... Also how does it go from a chemical related to processing feelings, in a body, to how a brain functions. Where our brain TRANSLATES the chemicals, how does it know how to, when to, and if chemicals could be ANALYZED or PROCESSED?

Also most emotions do not come from our brain, but physicaly and I'm sure you know about this, where a rape victim may experience arousal even though they don't like, or want it. Its a physical reaction, not a mental...

Also how you are defining this, is that our thoughts, and emotions do not come from our brain, but our body... So clear this up for me, and readers.

[Mr Walker]

If i have missed a really competent neurological explanation please pardon me. I get my info second hand from articles in the new sacientist or similar. As I understand it, to take the idea of the apple.

When a child first sees an apple, the "memory" allowing recognition of the object is stored in one neuron. When the object/apple is connected to a name the memory/knowledge is transferred to a different neiron. Our Knowledge of each individual person may be held in separate neurons. It is possible to forget an important piece of data( like a persons name) or a pincode just by having that one neuron die or be injured.

My assumption is that thoughts grow as information passes between neurons along axons via neuro transmitters....? and burn pathways. When we do something, we create a memery trace of it, which allows us to repeat the process.

We can create an identical memory path, by creating multiple visualisations of an action, but you need to visualise something about a dozen times to get the same effect as one action. Likewise, memeories of imagined/fantasied or dreamed events are stored identically to real events. This is why, after many years, it can be impossible to identify/distinguish the memory of a real event from an imagined one To do so requires other contextual memories surrounding the core one which give it relaibility and reality .

Finally most humans develop thought as a stream of consciousness only after a few years. In the intervening years they are building memory and other processes which allows what we call/identify as "thought" to slowly burn its way in our physical brain

Thoughts are real physical things. They can be stored and reproduced artificially, with increasing reliability, and many groups of scientists around the world are working on both artificial and cloned human storage of human thoughts and memories. Most argue that this wil be practically acheived in under 2 decades.

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

Mattshark, on 02 November 2009 - 10:33 AM, said:

Try also hormones which are part of the endocrine system and very much known to affect behaviour and some account for complex emotions too.

Shaun, Matt is correct as usual ........sigh .......

I just recently took a cognition and behavior course, the latest in how the brain learns as an educator its valuable info for me.......

But, I'll do you one better Go to members search put in V... read all her posts/topics you will love her posts, she is articulate and up to date..... ..This is her field as a neurologist (one of her degrees...)

If you don't want to I can recommend some of great reads...

I think Matt would concur with me on V......

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

Mr Walker, on 02 November 2009 - 04:05 PM, said:

If i have missed a really competent neurological explanation please pardon me. I get my info second hand from articles in the new sacientist or similar. As I understand it, to take the idea of the apple.

When a child first sees an apple, the "memory" allowing recognition of the object is stored in one neuron. When the object/apple is connected to a name the memory/knowledge is transferred to a different neiron. Our Knowledge of each individual person may be held in separate neurons. It is possible to forget an important piece of data( like a persons name) or a pincode just by having that one neuron die or be injured.

My assumption is that thoughts grow as information passes between neurons along axons via neuro transmitters....? and burn pathways. When we do something, we create a memery trace of it, which allows us to repeat the process.

We can create an identical memory path, by creating multiple visualisations of an action, but you need to visualise something about a dozen times to get the same effect as one action. Likewise, memeories of imagined/fantasied or dreamed events are stored identically to real events. This is why, after many years, it can be impossible to identify/distinguish the memory of a real event from an imagined one To do so requires other contextual memories surrounding the core one which give it relaibility and reality .

Finally most humans develop thought as a stream of consciousness only after a few years. In the intervening years they are building memory and other processes which allows what we call/identify as "thought" to slowly burn its way in our physical brain

Thoughts are real physical things. They can be stored and reproduced artificially, with increasing reliability, and many groups of scientists around the world are working on both artificial and cloned human storage of human thoughts and memories. Most argue that this wil be practically acheived in under 2 decades.

Mw if I may update here a bit hun, for starters long term memory is what we use the majority of the time and think we are thinking ..When in fact we aren't thinking takes a lot of effort the brain is actually wired not to have to think ..... Thinking occurs when you combine information ( from the enviornment and long term memory in new ways.....This combining happens in the working memory..its work



to get a feel for the space in the working memory and the amount of work involved in how we think using working memory see how many letters you can remember by reading the list ONLY ONCE .......

.

XCN
NPH
DFB
ICI
ANC
AAX


let me know and I'll post part 2....


your long term memory not only contains factual info as in what color things are and the value of 8 x7 but it also contains what is called procedural knowledge of the mental procedures needed to execute a procedure..often the long term memory and environment work in tandem...So the amount of data or what is called back ground knowledge in long term memory is the key (in a process called chunking .....)

This post has been edited by S♥ ♥ ♥: 03 November 2009 - 01:14 AM

[tinieblas]

I agree with G here, it doen't seem to cover more than the superficial explaination....the how is interesting to me....how does chemical x cause reaction y, how does the arrangement of simple chemicals on bits of microscopic fat and protein which are connected to one another make us able to remember with perfect picture clarity an image of a past event or be able to replay a favourite song or scene in one's mind as one would a video or audio recording? I know better than to throw ideas out and receive the usual blandishments.....

I am intrigued but I agree, science cannot yet understand it and, in the study of the paranormal, together with other fields, it is important and incredibly useful.....I wish I could know more

[Mr Walker]

S♥ ♥ ♥, on 03 November 2009 - 11:05 AM, said:

Mw if I may update here a bit hun, for starters long term memory is what we use the majority of the time and think we are thinking ..When in fact we aren't thinking takes a lot of effort the brain is actually wired not to have to think ..... Thinking occurs when you combine information ( from the enviornment and long term memory in new ways.....This combining happens in the working memory..its work



to get a feel for the space in the working memory and the amount of work involved in how we think using working memory see how many letters you can remember by reading the list ONLY ONCE .......

.

XCN
NPH
DFB
ICI
ANC
AAX


let me know and I'll post part 2....


your long term memory not only contains factual info as in what color things are and the value of 8 x7 but it also contains what is called procedural knowledge of the mental procedures needed to execute a procedure..often the long term memory and environment work in tandem...So the amount of data or what is called back ground knowledge in long term memory is the key (in a process called chunking .....)

Im not going to argue with this, In fact your last paragraph is identical to what i said(or what i thought i said anyway.) but my point was to the neurological/physical/chemical nature and structure of memory and thought. Thought starts with memory, but human level thought requires many processes which have a physical basis based on memory. Eg the ability to contemplate future gain for present loss, requires many basic abilities and then compounded processing of these. So does logical comparison, eveluation , extrapolation etc.

The basic level of memory and knowledge goes down to individual identifiable neurons and then builds up in complexity from there. Like all human attributes, this complexity and ability has evolved from a simple level to a highly complex one, but, in looking at the basic building blocks, we can better understand the complex evolved product (which is continuing to evolve and grow. There is nothing supernatural or metaphysical about thinking. It is "merely" an evolved process.

It is what humans can do WITH human level sapience which most intrigues me. THe ability to "think" creates a real break with evolution whereby humans become, rather than the ongoing product of evolution, the forerunner of a species which is; self driven, self organised, and capable of almost limitless potential. Where we cant adapt our environment to us, we can adapt our selves to new environments.

Long term memory often includes largely memory of earlier thoughts. So that once we work out what 2x2 is we dont have to do it every time, because we have a memory of working it out, and having identified the answer. But it also includes singular memories, from the time we first connect our receptors to our brain. Ie we remember the first apple we see, even though later we learn the generic name for an apple, and transfer the memory to another form because it is now a memory of an object, WITH a symbolic attachment of classification.
And the process of calling up, and making use of, memory, is still a apart of the process of thinking.

So we perceive and "memorise" an apple well before we know what it is, or have put a label to it. If you think about all aspects of very early childhood learning and development you can see both how, and why, this is the way young children learn.

Ps im not a fair person to ask about memorising things, because say with those letters, i only have to look at them once to remember them all.

This post has been edited by Mr Walker: 03 November 2009 - 02:48 AM

[Mattshark]

tinieblas, on 03 November 2009 - 02:14 AM, said:

I agree with G here, it doen't seem to cover more than the superficial explaination....the how is interesting to me....how does chemical x cause reaction y, how does the arrangement of simple chemicals on bits of microscopic fat and protein which are connected to one another make us able to remember with perfect picture clarity an image of a past event or be able to replay a favourite song or scene in one's mind as one would a video or audio recording? I know better than to throw ideas out and receive the usual blandishments.....

I am intrigued but I agree, science cannot yet understand it and, in the study of the paranormal, together with other fields, it is important and incredibly useful.....I wish I could know more

But it really just could be that simple. All life is just a complex chemical reaction.

[ShaunZero]

Quote

Shaun, I'd suggest neurology and endocrinology to examine this best. All evidence points to thoughts being the result of electro-chemical reactions in the brain.

Well yes, we've already established what their CAUSE is, but I'm asking what are the thoughts themselves. As stated ealier, the neural activity and the thoughts hold differtent properties, and are thus not one and the same.

[Mattshark]

ShaunZero, on 03 November 2009 - 03:31 AM, said:

Well yes, we've already established what their CAUSE is, but I'm asking what are the thoughts themselves. As stated ealier, the neural activity and the thoughts hold differtent properties, and are thus not one and the same.

Kind of impossible to say that at present. The neurology and the thoughts are clearly linked, we have nothing saying they have different properties though.

[ShaunZero]

Mattshark, on 02 November 2009 - 09:37 PM, said:

Kind of impossible to say that at present. The neurology and the thoughts are clearly linked, we have nothing saying they have different properties though.

Well of course they're linked, I'm not trying to suggest some sort of spirit, but the mystery of thoughts and concsiousness intrigues me. Wouldn't two different things have different properties? If x causes y, how can they have identicle properties without being the same thing?

This post has been edited by ShaunZero: 03 November 2009 - 03:48 AM