[zoser]

In the Puma Punku thread, KMT and others argued for the Tomb theory, while I argued against on the grounds that the GP was an energy machine. Other proposed a water device, and no doubt there are other even more diverse ideas out there.

Here are some lines this thread could look at (suggestions only):

1) What is the tangible evidence for the tomb theory, or what is the weight from evidence from say looking at a trace of burial customs of previous dynasties? Where did the tomb idea come from originally?

2) The GP is arguably the most intricate of the 3rd and 4th dynasty pyramids. Could the GP be a special case in some way?

3) One of the previous threads said that bones were found in the GP granite box. Not a mummy. What were they doing there? What about the animal bones apparently found in the box in Khafre's pyramid?

4) How does the architectural design of all the pyramids (The Red pyramid, The Bent Pyramid, Khafre's, Menkaure's)support the tomb theory? if not then what were they for?

5) Is there any evidence that the Giza Pyramids were from an earlier time and therefore had a different purpose other than tombs? Could the others be attempts at copying the originals created by some earlier culture, or were the Giza Pyramids a culmination and evolution from previous attempts. Is so then how do we explain the subsequent more inferior attempts?


This could be an interesting thread.

[jaylemurph]

zoser, on 27 October 2009 - 04:25 PM, said:

In the Puma Punku thread, KMT and others argued for the Tomb theory, while I argued against on the grounds that the GP was an energy machine. Other proposed a water device, and no doubt there are other even more diverse ideas out there.

Here are some lines this thread could look at (suggestions only):

1) What is the tangible evidence for the tomb theory, or what is the weight from evidence from say looking at a trace of burial customs of previous dynasties? Where did the tomb idea come from originally?

2) The GP is arguably the most intricate of the 3rd and 4th dynasty pyramids. Could the GP be a special case in some way?

3) One of the previous threads said that bones were found in the GP granite box. Not a mummy. What were they doing there? What about the animal bones apparently found in the box in Khafre's pyramid?

4) How does the architectural design of all the pyramids (The Red pyramid, The Bent Pyramid, Khafre's, Menkaure's)support the tomb theory? if not then what were they for?

5) Is there any evidence that the Giza Pyramids were from an earlier time and therefore had a different purpose other than tombs? Could the others be attempts at copying the originals created by some earlier culture, or were the Giza Pyramids a culmination and evolution from previous attempts. Is so then how do we explain the subsequent more inferior attempts?


This could be an interesting thread.

Way to expand the sentence "I'm too lazy to do my own research" seven or eight times.

--Jaylemurph

[cladking]

I'm inclined to believe the builders. They specifically and emphat-
ically said that the pyramid was the ka of the king and he was not
buried here. The great pyramids were built to drag the sun across
the sky.

The literal meaning of their words have been ignored for 150 years
and this is primarily because long after they were written they evol-
ved into something else entirely. But what they became very well
might have no bearing whatsoever on their original intent.

There is no compelling evidence to doubt the words of the builders
and seemingly substantial circumstantial and direct evidence to sup-
port them. I see no reason to believe these were tombs other than
tradition.

[Dan Dare]

cladking, on 27 October 2009 - 10:32 PM, said:

The great pyramids were built to drag the sun across
the sky.

Why would they need to drag the sun across the sky? did it stop moveing?

Dan Dare

[cladking]

Dan Dare, on 27 October 2009 - 05:09 PM, said:

Why would they need to drag the sun across the sky? did it stop moveing?

I think it was mostly a metaphor for perpetuating eternity. The
king was responsible for everything while he reigned. Not only was
it necessary that justice prevailed and ma'at was maintained but
also that he sun shone and the water flowed. It was time for the
king to ascend if everything wasm't in balance and a new king was
found.

Part of his responsibility was the sun rising in the morning and
the way this was assured was working on the king's ka. They pro-
bably took every tenth day (the first of the decade) off to do main-
tenance and work didn't proceed equally all year but the pyramid's
growth was a real part of eternity as was the rising of the sun.

Or at least these are the impressions left from a literal understand-
ing of the Pyramid Texts.

[KennyB]

zoser, I pick option #5. I think the Great Pyramid was built as a navigation beacon for alien spaceships. KennyB

[DieChecker]

From what I understand the early Pharohs were buried in undergound tombs on open land. This practice was then expanded to include a structure on top. The structures eventually got bigger and more elaborate, evolving into a layered structure full of tunnels. This evolved into the first step pyramid in Egypt, which was still a tomb. This then was adapted into the true pyramids that Egypt is famous for. The linear nature of this evolution is very straight forward. To then adapt the GP to be something else completely would be a gigantic scientific leap. We should see miniature versions of such technology and we just don't. Not to my knowledge anyway. So I generally go with the Tomb idea myself and give it the vast overwhelming percentage of being right. Even if it was not a direct tomb for the Pharaoh it was a monument to his lifeforce and godhood.

I think it was not used for moving water, even if the physics to do so exist, there is no practical reason for them to do it, or other examples of them doing so.

[zoser]

jaylemurph, on 27 October 2009 - 08:32 PM, said:

Way to expand the sentence "I'm too lazy to do my own research" seven or eight times.

--Jaylemurph

Cynicism is not helpful Jay. I'm interested in what you know - not what you don't know.

[zoser]

cladking, on 27 October 2009 - 09:32 PM, said:

The great pyramids were built to drag the sun across
the sky.

What do you mean by this CK?

Are you referring to 'Fire in the Middle' or some other definition?

[zoser]

DieChecker, on 28 October 2009 - 01:42 AM, said:

From what I understand the early Pharohs were buried in undergound tombs on open land. This practice was then expanded to include a structure on top. The structures eventually got bigger and more elaborate, evolving into a layered structure full of tunnels. This evolved into the first step pyramid in Egypt, which was still a tomb. This then was adapted into the true pyramids that Egypt is famous for. The linear nature of this evolution is very straight forward. To then adapt the GP to be something else completely would be a gigantic scientific leap. We should see miniature versions of such technology and we just don't. Not to my knowledge anyway. So I generally go with the Tomb idea myself and give it the vast overwhelming percentage of being right. Even if it was not a direct tomb for the Pharaoh it was a monument to his lifeforce and godhood.

I think it was not used for moving water, even if the physics to do so exist, there is no practical reason for them to do it, or other examples of them doing so.

Are you happy that the internal arrangement of passages/chambers/shafts inside the GP supports the theory? Is it simply the presence of the Granite box that gave rise to the tomb theory in the first place? Is that sufficient evidence? (In Khafre's pyramid there is a black granite box).

[zoser]

In the Bent Pyramid apparently no box has been found:

It's unique in having two entrances, from the east and north sides leading to three chambers in which no sarcophagus was found. It's believed that the grave chamber still might be in there skillfully hidden by the architects and awaiting to be found.

More information:


Evidence in writing from a stone in the Northern Pyramid (Red) tells that it was started on before the other one was finished and thus they were built partly simultaneously.
Snofru was considered to have been a good and wise pharaoh by the after living (his son Khufu was not), and his cult was still going on well into the Middle Kingdom half a millennium after his death.

Interesting because the GP contains no writing (convincing) attributable to Kings of the time.

Here is my conclusion from researching 3rd 4th and 5th dynasty burial practises based on available information:

No King was ever found in a so called 3rd or 4th dynasty pyramid. This is not the case however with the 5th dynasty. Some mummy's were found in pyramids as the quality of pyramids degenerated, some now no more than piles of rock. The evidence points therefore to some other purpose for these earlier more precision built monuments (see link below).

To be continued.


From:http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/3egypt/index.htm

This post has been edited by zoser: 28 October 2009 - 09:18 AM

[cladking]

"What do you mean by this CK?

Are you referring to 'Fire in the Middle' or some other definition?"

It's the way they built and understood the pyramid. The primeval mound
built itself and Atum as the ben ben was upon it. It gleamed in the morn-
ing sunlight and could be seen from great distances before the valley was
in sunlight.

When they removed the ben bens and drilled it became possible for the great
pyramids to begin making themselves as well. The site became a veritable
clockwork of activity presided over by Anubis and recorded by Thoth. This
was the bull of heaven which was composed of the ascenders and the []nw-boats.
Osiris became Seker when used as ballast.

Utterance 473.

926a. To say: The two reed-floats of heaven are placed by the morning-boat for Rē‘,

926b. that Rē‘ may ferry over on them to Horus who inhabits the horizon, to the horizon.

926c. The two reed-floats of heaven are placed by the evening-boat for Horus who inhabits the horizon,

926d. that Horus who inhabits the horizon may ferry over on them to Rē‘, to the horizon.

927a. The two reed-floats of heaven are caused to descend for N. by the morning-boat,

927b. that N. may mount on them to Rē‘, to the horizon.

927c. The two reed-floats of heaven are caused to descend for N. by the evening-boat,

927d. that N. may mount on them to Horus, who inhabits the horizon, to the horizon.

928a. N. mounts on high on this eastern side of heaven where the gods are born;

p. 168

928b. N. will be born (anew there) like Horus, like him of the horizon.

The wording here and in several other places suggests that they
considered the activity of building this pyramid to be associated
with pulling or powering the movement of Re from dawn to dusk.

[cladking]

1573a. To say: N. [has occupied] his seat;.
1574b [N. has taken] his helm (oar);
1573c. [N. seats himself in the bow] of the boat of the Two Enneads.
1574a. [N. rows Rē‘ to the west. He writes (the name) of N. over the living];
1574b. he establishes the seat of N. [over the lords of the kas]

At the risk of boring everyone here is a more concise
statement of what they appeared to have believed. The
dead king (N) was responsible for everything in life and
this included the flow of water that was used as ballast
to build the pyramid. In death he was the water that built
the pyramid. He "rowed" the sun to the west. He is in the
boat between the ennead of the earthly Gods and the ennead
of the creator Gods. He creates the ka of N thereby preser-
ing his name for eternity among the living.

[DieChecker]

zoser, on 28 October 2009 - 01:52 AM, said:

No King was ever found in a so called 3rd or 4th dynasty pyramid. This is not the case however with the 5th dynasty. Some mummy's were found in pyramids as the quality of pyramids degenerated, some now no more than piles of rock. The evidence points therefore to some other purpose for these earlier more precision built monuments.

I thought it actually pointed at Tomb Robbers. They were so prevelant that the pharoah only had a couple years max before someone broke in and took everything. Including the sarcophagus in many cases. Many of the maps of the interior of various pyramids show robber tunnel work having been done.

[zoser]

cladking, on 28 October 2009 - 06:10 PM, said:

1573a. To say: N. [has occupied] his seat;.
1574b [N. has taken] his helm (oar);
1573c. [N. seats himself in the bow] of the boat of the Two Enneads.
1574a. [N. rows Rē‘ to the west. He writes (the name) of N. over the living];
1574b. he establishes the seat of N. [over the lords of the kas]

At the risk of boring everyone here is a more concise
statement of what they appeared to have believed. The
dead king (N) was responsible for everything in life and
this included the flow of water that was used as ballast
to build the pyramid. In death he was the water that built
the pyramid. He "rowed" the sun to the west. He is in the
boat between the ennead of the earthly Gods and the ennead
of the creator Gods. He creates the ka of N thereby preser-
ing his name for eternity among the living.

I really don't understand what the Pyramid Texts are trying to say here. It all sounds a little abstract and ceremonic to me. The more I dwell upon this, the more I think that the advanced architecture was inherited by the Egyptians from an earlier culture who were first and foremost practical people. They must have been to create what they did. The abstract utterences of the texts were I believe the work of the Egyptians who were more allegorical and mystical in their approach to living. Again I am left with the distinct feeling that something does not fit, and alternative explanations are needed.