[HerNibs]

ohio state buckeyes, on 27 October 2009 - 08:08 PM, said:

sorry I messed it up I meant to respond to Rock Slinger. I agree with you said . timmy mcvey was a member or at lest had ties with the Oath Keepers.

OH, ok. Cool. Didn't want to react or over react to something I didn't need to.

Nibs

[Rock Slinger]

HerNibs, on 27 October 2009 - 09:40 PM, said:

How is it their duty to follow an oath that could be in conflict with the oath they took when enlisting?

I don't get what you are trying to say about that.

It is NOT a soldiers duty to disobey the president/officer order.

No, I don't think every order is a good order but there are ways to handle that and this isn't one of them.

Nibs

I respect your oppinion and think it has merit. But I also think that their pledge to uphold the constitution is a good thing. If not following unconstitutional orders get's you kicked out then fine, you get kicked out. At least you didn't act in violation of the constitution and in an illegal way towards your fellow Americans who you should be more loyal to if the leadership is run amuk. If and ONLY IF!

I understand that the only reason for something like this is if our government is really up to no good. If they are not up to no good then they will not give unconstitutional orders. I would still expect any soldier to use his/her best judgement as to whether the justification for something warrants other actions than following orders.

You even said that when orders are bad there are other things that can be done! Exactly their point, not contradictory! Do these other things! Get it?

This post has been edited by Rock Slinger: 28 October 2009 - 04:14 AM

[Rock Slinger]

ohio state buckeyes, on 27 October 2009 - 09:48 PM, said:

Far right nut jobs. Uh what oath was timmy mcvey keeping when he murdered 100s ?

Mcvey was A: a nutjob or B: a patsy whose role has successfully undermined militias. The Oath Keepers are not a militia at this point anyway but are saying that if it ever get's conspiracy theorist crazy bad then they will defend our constitution and not act unlawfully against you and I and our fellow citizens.

This post has been edited by Rock Slinger: 28 October 2009 - 04:44 AM

[Rock Slinger]

ohio state buckeyes, on 27 October 2009 - 10:02 PM, said:

If there Ideal is all white people in power and Morons Like Palin and Bush leading the country then yeah there idea of America is dead. Just like the idea to own someone and that American woman shouldnt have a voice in government are dead. Of course it about having a black man a the president in large part. Hes not one of them. Well that just freaking to bad, this is America now and they just haft to deal or if they really want to go to war with the rest of the country then this get to it cuz they're starting to bore me.

The oath keepers say nothing about race. I think these guys were concerned when Bush started to undermine our constitutional rights just as much as they will be concerned IF/when Obama does the same. BTW, I believe the VAST majority of white guys in America could care less about Obamas race, get over it. It should not even come up. Bringing it up is playing the race card and undermines the discussion. I think you have these guys confused with some white supremists or something which is competely unfair.

Edit: Added below from the oath keepers website

What We Are Not
We are Not advocating or promoting the overthrow of any government whether local, state or national. We want our governments to return to the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution defined and instituted.

We are Not advocating or promoting violence towards any organization, group or person. We are determined to Keep our Oath to support and defend the Constitution.

We are not advocating or promoting the removal of any person from his or her elected office. We want all elected persons to live up to their Oath to “support and defend the Constitution” as it is written or to leave of their own volition.

We are not advocating or promoting that anyone in the Judicial Branch be removed or replaced. We want the Justices in the Judicial Branch to follow the Constitution as written without interpretation.

We are not advocating or promoting any particular form of government other than the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted.

We are not advocating or promoting the rewriting of the Constitution nor are we asking for an Amendment thereto. We are insisting on the Constitution being Enforced as it is written.

We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any
reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation.

We hope for a return to a Constitutional Republic free from fear and hatred. We hate only tyranny.

We are Oath Sworn Americans who want the Constitution returned to its legal and rightful place, intact, as the ultimate Law of the Land

This post has been edited by Rock Slinger: 28 October 2009 - 04:58 AM

[ohio state buckeyes]

Rock Slinger, on 28 October 2009 - 12:36 AM, said:

The oath keepers say nothing about race. I think these guys were concerned when Bush started to undermine our constitutional rights just as much as they will be concerned IF/when Obama does the same. BTW, I believe the VAST majority of white guys in America could care less about Obamas race, get over it. It should not even come up. Bringing it up is playing the race card and undermines the discussion. I think you have these guys confused with some white supremists or something which is competely unfair.

Edit: Added below from the oath keepers website

What We Are Not
We are Not advocating or promoting the overthrow of any government whether local, state or national. We want our governments to return to the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution defined and instituted.

We are Not advocating or promoting violence towards any organization, group or person. We are determined to Keep our Oath to support and defend the Constitution.

We are not advocating or promoting the removal of any person from his or her elected office. We want all elected persons to live up to their Oath to “support and defend the Constitution” as it is written or to leave of their own volition.

We are not advocating or promoting that anyone in the Judicial Branch be removed or replaced. We want the Justices in the Judicial Branch to follow the Constitution as written without interpretation.

We are not advocating or promoting any particular form of government other than the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted.

We are not advocating or promoting the rewriting of the Constitution nor are we asking for an Amendment thereto. We are insisting on the Constitution being Enforced as it is written.

We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any
reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation.

We hope for a return to a Constitutional Republic free from fear and hatred. We hate only tyranny.

We are Oath Sworn Americans who want the Constitution returned to its legal and rightful place, intact, as the ultimate Law of the Land

Yeah there a version of the same thing as any other far right group they are just hiding behind the Constitution. What percent of their members are white ?? Im guessing near 100 percent. I think alot of white guys have a problem with a black president down south in southwest. Hes not constitution treat . Oath Keepers had problems with Bush hes was around for 8 years , why did no one hear from them ?? The thing is the things they worry about comes from there paranoid minds . That black man going take their assault weapons and they cant pretend to be Rambo. Hes not a treat to states rights if anything to expending them. What they fear is loss of the feeling of power. America has a Black" muslim non american " in their minds. America is changing and the far right is freaking. Bush bailed out wall street first and I saw no tea bags no Oath Keeper no rallies at all for 8 years .

This post has been edited by ohio state buckeyes: 28 October 2009 - 11:55 AM

[ohio state buckeyes]

Rock Slinger, on 28 October 2009 - 12:21 AM, said:

Mcvey was A: a nutjob or B: a patsy whose role has successfully undermined militias. The Oath Keepers are not a militia at this point anyway but are saying that if it ever get's conspiracy theorist crazy bad then they will defend our constitution and not act unlawfully against you and I and our fellow citizens.

Yeah its was those government conspiracies to murder 100s to make militias look like nut jobs. Let me let in on a secret people thought they were nut jobs all along. timmy mcvey was influenced by the Oath Keepers. They did the same kkk leaders do when someone comments a evil act " yeah we knew him but we have right to our beliefs and we didnt tell him t do this and its not our faults "

This post has been edited by ohio state buckeyes: 28 October 2009 - 11:47 AM

[Rock Slinger]

ohio state buckeyes, on 28 October 2009 - 07:36 AM, said:

Yeah there a version of the same thing as any other far right group they are just hiding behind the Constitution. What percent of their members are white ?? Im guessing near 100 percent. I think alot of white guys have a problem with a black president down south in southwest. Hes not constitution treat . Oath Keepers had problems with Bush hes was around for 8 years , why did no one hear from them ?? The thing is the things they worry about comes from there paranoid minds . That black man going take their assault weapons and they cant pretend to be Rambo. Hes not a treat to states rights if anything to expending them. What they fear is loss of the feeling of power. America has a Black" muslim non american " in their minds. America is changing and the far right is freaking. Bush bailed out wall street first and I saw no tea bags no Oath Keeper no rallies at all for 8 years .

Did you read the above post- "What they are not."? You dismiss what they claim to be and lump them in with all them bad whitey groups.

Edit: added:

Your right that as the story unfolds in our history, defenders of the Constitution are more and more worried. Many of these people are conservatives, but conservatives are not happy with with republicans either. I think people are more and more worried in general. Bush had a bit of a free pass because of 9/11 to pass the Patriot Act. But as time goes on people are starting to realize this may have been a set-up and the next event, no matter what color or persuasion the president is, could be the end of many more freedoms etc...

This post has been edited by Rock Slinger: 28 October 2009 - 12:10 PM

[Rock Slinger]

ohio state buckeyes, on 28 October 2009 - 07:42 AM, said:

Yeah its was those government conspiracies to murder 100s to make militias look like nut jobs. Let me let in on a secret people thought they were nut jobs all along. timmy mcvey was influenced by the Oath Keepers. They did the same kkk leaders do when someone comments a evil act " yeah we knew him but we have right to our beliefs and we didnt tell him t do this and its not our faults "

The reason I started this in the conspiracies section is because if there is no conspiracy to undermine America to benefit the New World Order then none of this matters. Actually then I would agree that militias are unnecessary and kind of nut jobby.. I think there is the possibility that major events like this are staged for long term changes taking us down the road to the end of America as we know it. Actually after the Oklahoma City bombing we lost freedoms as I recall. At the time I never in a million years would have suspected a false flag attack but now I am not so sure. I may be paranoid but it has nothing to do with Obama being black, that is for sure.

[Corp]

Rock Slinger, on 27 October 2009 - 09:20 PM, said:

I think you missed that their whole purpose is to fulfill their original oath to it's word, which might someday be in contradiction to their direct orders. They only will disobey orders that contradict their original oath to uphold the constitutution. Actually it is their duty to do this!

So why do they need a second oath if their purpose is to uphold the first one?

[HerNibs]

Rock Slinger, on 27 October 2009 - 09:29 PM, said:

I respect your oppinion and think it has merit. But I also think that their pledge to uphold the constitution is a good thing. If not following unconstitutional orders get's you kicked out then fine, you get kicked out. At least you didn't act in violation of the constitution and in an illegal way towards your fellow Americans who you should be more loyal to if the leadership is run amuk. If and ONLY IF!

I understand that the only reason for something like this is if our government is really up to no good. If they are not up to no good then they will not give unconstitutional orders. I would still expect any soldier to use his/her best judgement as to whether the justification for something warrants other actions than following orders.

You even said that when orders are bad there are other things that can be done! Exactly their point, not contradictory! Do these other things! Get it?

Yep, I get it and just for fun I sent the link to a few family members and friends. All military. Some officers and some enlisted. ALL said that they either wouldn't or couldn't take any oath like this. The agree that it is a contradiction to their original oath. The officers that I spoke to agreed with me. It isn't up to a soldier to decide if the order is good or not mainly due to the fact that a field soldier or officer seldom recieves the entire scope of the plan behind the order. My step grandfather stated that if he found out if any of his men took this oath there would be "hell to pay". My son is still laughing at it. He said basically the same thing.

There was a common theme in speaking to them...this is nothing new. Similar stupid stuff was thought up and handed around in the 60's and there are always disgruntled individuals in the military. If these people don't end up disgracing themselves this way, they find other ways.

I would hope that anyone who willing throws off one oath for an oath the like better leaves the military before they cause damage to necessary plans, endanger freedoms or cost some one their life.

Like it or not, when you sign up you agree to protect and defend the Constitution, obey the President and your orders. You willingly give up the right to make your own decisions and rules.

I'm from a family with a long time military service and many active military members. I certainly hope that none of them ever have to serve with any chucklehead that agrees with any of this garbage.

Nibs

[Rock Slinger]

Corp, on 28 October 2009 - 08:55 AM, said:

So why do they need a second oath if their purpose is to uphold the first one?

They definately don't need this second oath. They just need to keep their original oath to it's word. Oath Keepers! Not Oath Breakers. I think the idea is to make enlisted people fully aware that their oath includes upholding the Constitution and what that really means and live by it. foreign and domestic enemies... To think for themselves and realize there is potential for future bad orders to be part of a sinister plan to take away citizen rights and power. To take a stand if this happens and, following the protocol set-up for this situation, not break the Constitution.

I understand the kooky aspect to this. I would guess that 80% of Americans thought those that stood up to the English government were kooks back in the day. Were they kooks or heroes?

This post has been edited by Rock Slinger: 28 October 2009 - 02:31 PM

[Rock Slinger]

HerNibs, on 28 October 2009 - 09:30 AM, said:

Like it or not, when you sign up you agree to protect and defend the Constitution, obey the President and your orders. You willingly give up the right to make your own decisions and rules.


Nibs

So if you get orders to go house to house and collect arms without search warrants etc and start detaining people as enemy combatants you willingly already gave up your right to question this? NO, you have an obligation to defend the Constitution! That is the point of all this. The oaths are not mutually exclusive. It is just a committment to honor the first when most people don't understand what their oath really means or could mean someday.

This post has been edited by Rock Slinger: 28 October 2009 - 03:01 PM

[ohio state buckeyes]

Rock Slinger, on 28 October 2009 - 08:01 AM, said:

Did you read the above post- "What they are not."? You dismiss what they claim to be and lump them in with all them bad whitey groups.

Edit: added:

Your right that as the story unfolds in our history, defenders of the Constitution are more and more worried. Many of these people are conservatives, but conservatives are not happy with with republicans either. I think people are more and more worried in general. Bush had a bit of a free pass because of 9/11 to pass the Patriot Act. But as time goes on people are starting to realize this may have been a set-up and the next event, no matter what color or persuasion the president is, could be the end of many more freedoms etc...

I dont know you so im not going to say your a racist. You seem to have a real concern and I can respect that but I dont think for a second that Obama is going to round people up and take the guns or invade a state. Im sure there is alot of honest people like you but tea bag and birters like groups motivation is race in large part.

[HerNibs]

Rock Slinger, on 28 October 2009 - 08:41 AM, said:

So if you get orders to go house to house and collect arms without search warrants etc and start detaining people as enemy combatants you willingly already gave up your right to question this? NO, you have an obligation to defend the Constitution! That is the point of all this. The oaths are not mutually exclusive. It is just a committment to honor the first when most people don't understand what their oath really means or could mean someday.

Me? Nope, I don't do well with orders, this is why I didn't join the military.

If a soldier is ordered to do so, then YES, they need to obey orders.

It is our job as non-military US citizens to question and challenge our government. It is our job to make sure that our government is honest and NOT giving our soldiers bad orders. It is NOT the job of the soldiers.

Like I said before, a soldier and even the officer issuing the order may not know all the circumstances. It could endanger OUR OWN lives if they decide, without all the information, to NOT follow an order.

And your example of the revolutionary war is not valid. That was CITIZENS fighting a government that they didn't agree with any longer. That was NOT actual American soldiers fighting the government they were sworn to obey.

Bad example. Again, that was citizens, like me, rising up against government.

Nibs

[Rock Slinger]

HerNibs, on 28 October 2009 - 12:26 PM, said:

Me? Nope, I don't do well with orders, this is why I didn't join the military.

If a soldier is ordered to do so, then YES, they need to obey orders.

It is our job as non-military US citizens to question and challenge our government. It is our job to make sure that our government is honest and NOT giving our soldiers bad orders. It is NOT the job of the soldiers.

Like I said before, a soldier and even the officer issuing the order may not know all the circumstances. It could endanger OUR OWN lives if they decide, without all the information, to NOT follow an order.

And your example of the revolutionary war is not valid. That was CITIZENS fighting a government that they didn't agree with any longer. That was NOT actual American soldiers fighting the government they were sworn to obey.

Bad example. Again, that was citizens, like me, rising up against government.

Nibs

Good points. But I think it is a soldiers duty to question apparently bad orders, not just mindlessly follow orders that definately contradict their oath to uphold the constitution. Although I guess if the President declares state of emergency and martial law, our Constitutional rights are out the window and then we are just screwed.

Hopefully the crazy ideas of doom are just that crazy ideas... But if things get all screwed up in the world and some of these conspiracies turn out to be true then we need citizens, to stand up and fight it, soldier or not. We would want as many soldiers as possible to stand down and even fight for the citizens would'nt we?

I;'d like them all to be fully aware of the Constitution and what it means to honor it, that is all.