[DigitalSentinal]

Glad to see a few chords were struck with this piece - whatever people's affiliations and interests. Next article is the third and last part of the Great Pyramid series.

This post has been edited by DigitalSentinal: 01 November 2009 - 03:47 PM

[willowdreams]

Raptor, on 30 October 2009 - 07:35 AM, said:

Vaccinations are about much more than the individuals that get the shot.

By refusing to get the shot you're allowing yourself to become a potential carrier of the disease. If that happens, you greatly increase the chances of infecting a number of other people who otherwise would not be. These people will then go on to do the same thing. It spreads like wildfire, and now with the increased number of people infected, the frequency of mutations occurring will be greatly increased, and it's just a matter of luck before the wrong mutation occurs in the wrong place, and suddenly the communicability and/or virulence of the strain is struck up a couple of notches and we have a greater number of casualties.

What I mean to say is that you're not only taking your chances, you're rolling the dice for an incredible number of people.

Yanno, i DON'T buy that at all.

You see, one of the issues too is people do not build up immunities anymore. When my children were born and I took them to the doctor, he never prescribed medication unless it was absolutely needed. He always said the worse thing a parent can do is medicate their children over every simple thing, as each cold/virus/whatever a child gets, the fevers and such is the bodies way of fighting the invaders, and they build up immunities. And science has proven that and now there are infections/illnesses that are having more problems being faught off due to the fact that medications no longer work as they should because our bodies are building up resistances to the medications themselves.

I myself rarely went to the doctor for illnesses unless the fevers got to high and we could not bring it down. And now at 46 I rarely get more then a bad cold or mild flu.

My kids are in their 20's now, rarely get more then bad colds. When I went to my doctor asking bout the flu shots for our family she was like not concerned in any way. If we get sick, high fever we cannot bring down to 102 or under. then go to the hospital.

We are strong, robust.. and doing well.

My own doctor doesnt think we are needing the shot. That says more to me then anything... as well as personal experience, the two times in my adult life i did get seriously ill was the two times I did take a flu shot.

So.. no shots for me and mine.

and before anyone thinks i am implying somethign i am not.. my children has had their 'vaccinations' they needed to enter public school (even i wouldnt mess around with polio and other things, tetnis either.. since my children were highly active and did not always 'think' before trying stunts that caused cuts and bruises') and even I had my vaccinations as well as my smallpox (though my children did not have smallpox vac. then again that wasnt/isnt a vaccination thatsaround then or now )

This post has been edited by willowdreams: 01 November 2009 - 07:26 PM

[theGhost_and_theDarkness]

I have to agree with you willow. When everyone else catches the flu, I might get a sniffle, at most a low grade fever, and then its gone. . .the only times I've been seriously sick with it was when I got vaccinated. My parents were the same way. Never got the flu until they started getting vaccinations against it. Both of them finally gave them up and haven't been sick with it since. I guess its different for every person, but they just don't seem to do any good for me.

[willowdreams]

theGhost_and_theDarkness, on 01 November 2009 - 02:39 PM, said:

I have to agree with you willow. When everyone else catches the flu, I might get a sniffle, at most a low grade fever, and then its gone. . .the only times I've been seriously sick with it was when I got vaccinated. My parents were the same way. Never got the flu until they started getting vaccinations against it. Both of them finally gave them up and haven't been sick with it since. I guess its different for every person, but they just don't seem to do any good for me.

Nods, pple are diff, i enjoy a healthy immune system and it deserves to 'work' as it was built to work, if it is overwhelmed, then i do believe in going to a doctor.

I also think pple panic to easy. At my job I had a head cold and sadly it got mixed up with allergies, head cold + allergies = ugh.

Ppl at work were like 'omg does she have the swine flu?" I actually had to see a doctor to make my work understand 'there are other illnesses out there BESIDES swine flu!'

actually, the cold was over fairly quickly heh. Doctor did not even give me medicine, just said plenty of liquids and soups, or whatver i feel like eating.

Allergies are letting up, its a norm here during the fall changing of the seasons. then i will be fine prolly till spring/summer when a week or two of allergies will come back, then fine till fall.

But isnt that 'normal?'.

I am sure diseases will run rampant through places and we need to be careful. We keep our home clean, store food safely, wash hands often and keep our bodies/clothing clean.

We do not smoke, other then light social drinking or a glass of wine here or there, we do not get drunk either. We try to eat sensible, thogh i admit this week i have enjoyed shopping for halloween candy.. we gave out receeses cups and peppermint patties.. not sure how many i ate.. but enough to be too full! and I admit too... I love my steak! (everyone says red meat is bad for ya, but gimme a med rare steak and I purrrr)..

And.. I pigged out on oen of my favie snacks.. nacho cheese dipped in that stuff.. you know, crockpot of melted velveeta with hambuger in it and that tomato spicey stuff

oooooh i purrrred a lot

[Raptor]

willowdreams, on 01 November 2009 - 07:20 PM, said:

You see, one of the issues too is people do not build up immunities anymore. When my children were born and I took them to the doctor, he never prescribed medication unless it was absolutely needed. He always said the worse thing a parent can do is medicate their children over every simple thing, as each cold/virus/whatever a child gets, the fevers and such is the bodies way of fighting the invaders, and they build up immunities. And science has proven that and now there are infections/illnesses that are having more problems being faught off due to the fact that medications no longer work as they should because our bodies are building up resistances to the medications themselves.

This is true for bacterial infections.

When you fall ill with a bacterial infection, the bacteria causing the illness are going to be numerous and all slightly varied from one another. Some will have a slightly higher natural resistance to antibiotics than others.

When people are prescribed a course of antibiotics they'll often take a few doses but then stop when they start to feel better. This is harmful because, even though you feel a little bit better, some of the bacteria are still hanging on in there. Which ones do you think will be alive still? The ones most resistant to the drug! So when you stop taking the antibiotics you give these bacteria a chance to replenish their numbers, so they multiply until there are millions of them again, only this time they're all more resistant to the drug, because they all came from the few survivors from before.

^{(Image from Wikipedia)}

What we're talking about here is a viral infection, which is very different.

Vaccinations simply expose your body to a sample of the offending virus, which allows your immune system to generate its own resistance to the virus through its own natural mechanisms without having to actually combat an illness, so there's no risk of you losing the battle against it. It's possible that a mutation could render a vaccination useless against a particular virus, but vaccinations do not promote resistance against treatment.

Quote

We are strong, robust.. and doing well.

Anecdotal evidence only stretches so far; people do fall ill and people do die.

Quote

My own doctor doesnt think we are needing the shot. That says more to me then anything...

That they're in high demand and short supply?

[ChloeB]

I was hoping that once you caught this, that you'd have immunity like with chicken pox that is very rare to get twice I believe. The thing that worries me about this is there's a 20% reinfection rate based on a study they did in 1980 so even if you catch it, there's a chance you can catch it again and this thing can keep circulating around.

[Wickian]

Mbyte, on 30 October 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

Vaccine or no vaccine our bodies will carry it anyway. The vaccine isen't 100% effective and I can't see how it can be effective at all. You talk as if it's the vaccine that does the magic and that if we don't have the vaccine we are cruel. It's actually our bodies response to the vaccine that makes it effective. We fight the virus without the symptoms. Personally I want to get the swine flu. I want to see how bad it is. I'm going to see if I can get heal faster with meditation.

I will have to admit though; if it was vaccines that eradicated small pox then they are effective.

I'm pretty sure they cured smallpox by infecting people with a more mild cowpox virus. It was a different process than current flu vaccines.

[Raptor]

ChloeB, on 01 November 2009 - 11:16 PM, said:

I was hoping that once you caught this, that you'd have immunity like with chicken pox that is very rare to get twice I believe. The thing that worries me about this is there's a 20% reinfection rate based on a study they did in 1980 so even if you catch it, there's a chance you can catch it again and this thing can keep circulating around.

Interesting, thanks.

Wickian, on 01 November 2009 - 11:53 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure they cured smallpox by infecting people with a more mild cowpox virus. It was a different process than current flu vaccines.

It's the same mechanism at work. You're just exposing the immune system to a pathogen so that it can familiarize itself with it and prepare its defences for the next time that it encounters the pathogen (or one like it).

[ChloeB]

Wickian, on 01 November 2009 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure they cured smallpox by infecting people with a more mild cowpox virus. It was a different process than current flu vaccines.

How is the process different? Vaccines are a modified live version or a killed inactivated virus to stimulate the body's response to build up the immunity without developing all the symptoms, seems the same to me.

[ChloeB]

Raptor, on 01 November 2009 - 04:20 PM, said:

This is true for bacterial infections.

When you fall ill with a bacterial infection, the bacteria causing the illness are going to be numerous and all slightly varied from one another. Some will have a slightly higher natural resistance to antibiotics than others.

When people are prescribed a course of antibiotics they'll often take a few doses but then stop when they start to feel better. This is harmful because, even though you feel a little bit better, some of the bacteria are still hanging on in there. Which ones do you think will be alive still? The ones most resistant to the drug! So when you stop taking the antibiotics you give these bacteria a chance to replenish their numbers, so they multiply until there are millions of them again, only this time they're all more resistant to the drug, because they all came from the few survivors from before.

^{(Image from Wikipedia)}

I've also heard some things about the popularity of all the anti-bacterial soaps having something to do with a lot of the antibioti-resistant superbugs.

This post has been edited by ChloeB: 02 November 2009 - 12:53 AM

[Raptor]

ChloeB, on 02 November 2009 - 12:42 AM, said:

I've also heard some things about the popularity of all the anti-bacterial soaps having something to do with a lot of the antibioti-resistant superbugs.

I hadn't considered that, but it makes perfect sense!

Quote

How is the process different? Vaccines are a modified live version or a killed inactivated virus to stimulate the body's response to build up the immunity without developing all the symptoms, seems the same to me.

No need for me in here.

[ChloeB]

Raptor, on 02 November 2009 - 10:31 AM, said:

No need for me in here.

Oh, whatever. You always have all the good visual aids!

[Mattshark]

willowdreams, on 01 November 2009 - 07:20 PM, said:

Yanno, i DON'T buy that at all.

You see, one of the issues too is people do not build up immunities anymore. When my children were born and I took them to the doctor, he never prescribed medication unless it was absolutely needed. He always said the worse thing a parent can do is medicate their children over every simple thing, as each cold/virus/whatever a child gets, the fevers and such is the bodies way of fighting the invaders, and they build up immunities. And science has proven that and now there are infections/illnesses that are having more problems being faught off due to the fact that medications no longer work as they should because our bodies are building up resistances to the medications themselves.

I myself rarely went to the doctor for illnesses unless the fevers got to high and we could not bring it down. And now at 46 I rarely get more then a bad cold or mild flu.

My kids are in their 20's now, rarely get more then bad colds. When I went to my doctor asking bout the flu shots for our family she was like not concerned in any way. If we get sick, high fever we cannot bring down to 102 or under. then go to the hospital.

We are strong, robust.. and doing well.

My own doctor doesnt think we are needing the shot. That says more to me then anything... as well as personal experience, the two times in my adult life i did get seriously ill was the two times I did take a flu shot.

So.. no shots for me and mine.

and before anyone thinks i am implying somethign i am not.. my children has had their 'vaccinations' they needed to enter public school (even i wouldnt mess around with polio and other things, tetnis either.. since my children were highly active and did not always 'think' before trying stunts that caused cuts and bruises') and even I had my vaccinations as well as my smallpox (though my children did not have smallpox vac. then again that wasnt/isnt a vaccination thatsaround then or now )

If you think you build up immunity to flu and cold then you should consider looking into how these viruses work. They'll mutate way faster than an immune system can keep up on its own.


Oh and DS, your article is a horrendous abuse of any connotation of the word science and is pure paranoid drivel highlighting only your lack of knowledge in this subject.

This post has been edited by Mattshark: 02 November 2009 - 05:17 PM

[ChloeB]

Mattshark, on 02 November 2009 - 11:15 AM, said:

If you think you build up immunity to flu and cold then you should consider looking into how these viruses work. They'll mutate way faster than an immune system can keep up on its own.

That's the problem with these yearly flu shots people get and still get the flu anyway - they change faster than they put out a shot.

[Mattshark]

ChloeB, on 02 November 2009 - 05:47 PM, said:

That's the problem with these yearly flu shots people get and still get the flu anyway - they change faster than they put out a shot.

No, the shot is usually out fast enough, the problem is more people wait till they are infected to get the jab.