[Wookietim]

747400, on 03 November 2009 - 11:04 AM, said:

I'd agree there. i think there is plenty of evidence, albeit most of it is anecdotal or circumstantial.

I don't put much faith in anecdotes... ask 10 people to relate a shared experience from even the day before and you will get 10 wildly divergent stories out of it. Human perception is simply too subjective to rely on or call evidence.

That said, I am willing to say that when we have thousands of reports (Anecdotes) from Thousands of people and the broad outlines seem to agree, then I am willing to say that those anecdotes are weighty enough to seek out real evidence - Something is happening even if it might not be exactly what those people report in other words.

So the big question is "What, exactly, is happening?".... Well, everything we know about physics sort of says that it probably isn't aliens from another star system. Yes, we probably don't know everything and that statement may very well be wrong - but I would rather stay within the boundaries we know about than allowing some sort of magical thinking to permeate any theories. Introducing fantasy tech is lazy.

So we are probably dealing with some sort of Earth originated mystery here... No idea what the answer is, but right now the source seems to more likely be Earth than another star.

[mcrom901]

747400, on 03 November 2009 - 04:04 PM, said:

I mean, think how electricity would seem magical to someone in the 16th century.

http://www.disclose....ttery___IRAQ__/

[sinewave]

Wookietim, on 03 November 2009 - 09:42 AM, said:

There has been tantalizing bits of evidence beyond just personal anecdotes - strange radar returns, interesting photos and physical traces. Some of them cannot currently be explained... Which to my mind says that there may very well be something to the phenomenon.

Of course, jumping from "There's something to this" straight to "There is an intergalactic federation of planets that is visiting us and conducting genetic experiments" is a bit of a stretch (To understate it)...

I hear you but RADAR returns can be misleading, photos can be doctored or faked as can physical traces. And what usually ties them all together? Anecdotal evidence.

[Wookietim]

sinewave, on 03 November 2009 - 11:19 AM, said:

I hear you but RADAR returns can be misleading, photos can be doctored or faked as can physical traces. And what usually ties them all together? Anecdotal evidence.

I fully 100% completely agree.

Here's the thing though - when we have decades of anecdotal experiences, Strange RADAR returns, photos, videos, and physical evidence, that amounts something. Like I said - we can't just jump from that something straight to extraterrestrial intelligence... It might end up being something prosaic.

BUT (And this is a big but - almost as big as my butt! ;-) ) I think we have enough reason to think something is happening to investigate it. Not enough to form set opinions on it yet - but enough to try to find actual evidence.

I think of it like this - if I were to be sleeping in a bedroom and see a flash of light, and hear people outside talking about a light in the sky and then read stories in the paper about a light in the sky and then hear that a RADAR return was seen and then see a few photos of that light... I would then say "Well, perhaps something occurred out there." I wouldn't say "Well, obviously a Pleiadean was visiting to give someone an anal probe". But there would be enough to make me think that perhaps there was something to look into.

I see it as the same for the UFO phenomenon as a whole - let's face it, at the very least there is an interesting psychological thing going on where people for centuries seem to see that same type of thing and just apply different names to it. At the most we might find out something interesting about the universe at large... and most likely we will at least find some interesting stuff about our planet from investigating it.

[747400]

mcrom901, on 03 November 2009 - 04:16 PM, said:

http://www.disclose....ttery___IRAQ__/

On that theme, have you seen the suggestions about the Ark of the Covenant? Most interesting.

[Universal Sight]

747400, on 03 November 2009 - 01:57 AM, said:

Ah, but there's the thing. if they were secret aircraft being withheld from us for security reasons, why hover over cities, or buzz civilian aircraft, or even cause your own or your own allies' fighters to be scrambled to intercept them? That seems the very opposite of security.

i think this would actually be the best test possible. I believe if they are these"disc-shape" they are most likely unmanned. No human could take that kind of g-force in doing 90 degree turns at say 1000 MPH.

If they could fly these and escape an alert and chase....how are you going to be able to tell where/what country they came from?

The perfect weapon. Thus the extreme secrecy needed.

Its probably a race between several nations to perfect this new type of weapon as im sure several issues have been leaked by both sides for the almightly dollar.

This post has been edited by Universal Sight: 03 November 2009 - 07:26 PM

[karl 12]

747400, on 03 November 2009 - 07:57 AM, said:

Ah, but there's the thing. if they were secret aircraft being withheld from us for security reasons, why hover over cities, or buzz civilian aircraft, or even cause your own or your own allies' fighters to be scrambled to intercept them? That seems the very opposite of security.

Thats a good point -Nick Pope from the British Ministry of Defense makes an interesting statement here:

Quote

"We were asking the Americans, 'Are you operating a prototype aircraft in our airspace?' That, of course, was nonsense. You simply would not do that from a diplomatic and political point of view. It would undermine the entire structure of NATO if you were putting things through someone else's airspace, particularly a close ally, without seeking the proper diplomatic clearance. But we had to ask. And the Americans, having had similar reports, I guess, since the Hudson Valley wave [New York state, mid-1980s], had been quietly asking us if we had some large, triangular shaped object that could go from 0 to Mach 5 in a second. Our response was that we wished we did. This was the bizarre situation: that we were chasing the Americans, and the Americans were chasing us."

Nick Pope - Head of the "UFO desk" at Air Secretariat 2-A, British Ministry of Defence.

Cheers.

[karl 12]

Wookietim, on 03 November 2009 - 03:42 PM, said:

There has been tantalizing bits of evidence beyond just personal anecdotes - strange radar returns, interesting photos and physical traces. Some of them cannot currently be explained... Which to my mind says that there may very well be something to the phenomenon.

I agree with you there - I don't know about the extra-terrestrial (or extra-dimensional) hypothesis but theres quite a lot of evidence to suggest the actual UFO phenomenon exists - there's credible government documentary evidence, credible radar/sonar evidence, credible electromagnetic interference evidence, credible ground trace evidence and credible (circumstantial) evidence in the form of sworn eyewitness testimony from 1000s of credible individuals.

I'd also say there are credible grounds to beleive that many United States Air Force 'explanations' for specific UFO incidents are deliberately concocted falsehoods -see here.



Other:

Government Documentary evidence

56 Pilot UFO Sightings Involving Electromagnetic Effects.

Pilot Reports

Police Reports

USO Reports

Reports from Nuclear/Atomic Installations

Statements/testimony regarding the UFO subject

Cheers.

[ohio state buckeyes]

Wookietim, on 03 November 2009 - 10:39 AM, said:

Unfortunately we do have to limit our understanding of what is possible to what we know at the moment. After all if we start simply saying "They have some technology that breaks what we know of the laws of physics" then we might as well just call theses things magical creatures... At that point we have left any grounding in reality (As we understand it) and have simply flown off into the realms of fantasy.

I have no problem realizing that we don't know all the laws of physics yet - that is not the problem. But until we ascertain that the laws we do know can be broken, then we really shouldn't just introduce the concept of technology that does break them. There is the temptation to do that of course, but the second we simply substitute some fantasy device capable of doing whatever we want then we are introducing magic and might as well call UFOs Unicorns and Dragons - there is no difference between some primitive form of mythology and modern science at that point.

I understand we haft to stay rational but we shouldn't discount another civilizations ability to travel to other worlds just because we cant and wouldn't understand the technology. I dont agree that we would be forced to see it as magical. Why it cant be as simple as, the human race doesn't have the technology for deep space travel and our understanding of physics seem to suggest deep space travel is very difficult , but we hold open other the possibility other civilizations have achieved what yet we can't imagine.

[DONTEATUS]

YEs to dream of things to come and build the things we Dream!
Like to Fly Like a Bird,or Walk on the Moon!
Its just a baby step into our Future!

[Universal Sight]

ohio state buckeyes, on 04 November 2009 - 08:02 PM, said:

I understand we haft to stay rational but we shouldn't discount another civilizations ability to travel to other worlds just because we cant and wouldn't understand the technology. I dont agree that we would be forced to see it as magical. Why it cant be as simple as, the human race doesn't have the technology for deep space travel and our understanding of physics seem to suggest deep space travel is very difficult , but we hold open other the possibility other civilizations have achieved what yet we can't imagine.

We have to be rational because of needed proof. Although hard to believe, it could very well be possible for another civilization to have figured the secrets of space travel/time manipulation. But, again...where is the proof? Where are the aliens? All we have are reports, reports with NO PROOF. Its all word of mouth IMHO. Right now it is magical...to be able to go billions of miles in an instant... unharmed. It would officially be "logical" when its actually done.

[747400]

Universal Sight, on 05 November 2009 - 08:51 AM, said:

We have to be rational because of needed proof. Although hard to believe, it could very well be possible for another civilization to have figured the secrets of space travel/time manipulation. But, again...where is the proof? Where are the aliens? All we have are reports, reports with NO PROOF. Its all word of mouth IMHO. Right now it is magical...to be able to go billions of miles in an instant... unharmed. It would officially be "logical" when its actually done.

Maybe they don't have to come billions of miles?

[karl 12]

747400, on 05 November 2009 - 09:24 AM, said:

Maybe they don't have to come billions of miles?

Yes, maybe they live 'off planet' on self contained ships free from the dangers of earthquakes,volcanoes,tidal waves etc.. - that would negate the distance problem.

Alternately they may be able to fold space-time; be time travellers ;have an extra dimensional origin or come from under the sea.

Thats the problem with presupposing anything - we just don't know.

The one thing we do know however is that the UFO subject is a very real one and there are quite a number of incidents which defy rational explanation.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by karl 12: 05 November 2009 - 07:02 PM

[Wookietim]

ohio state buckeyes, on 04 November 2009 - 09:02 PM, said:

I understand we haft to stay rational but we shouldn't discount another civilizations ability to travel to other worlds just because we cant and wouldn't understand the technology. I dont agree that we would be forced to see it as magical. Why it cant be as simple as, the human race doesn't have the technology for deep space travel and our understanding of physics seem to suggest deep space travel is very difficult , but we hold open other the possibility other civilizations have achieved what yet we can't imagine.

Here is the thing though - if we simply posit some technology we can't even imagine yet then we have lost all of our frames of reference. At that point we could just start explaining away anything by just introducing things we don't have to actually define...

I was having a discussion on another board recently about "Doctor Who". The other person was claiming that Romana regenerated because of some injury and I claimed that she was doing it because she felt like it. [ignore all that if you aren't into a nerdy discussion of Dr Who's classic series - the basic point I am getting at is still relatable] Their argument was "Yeah - nothing was shown between the end of the 'Key To Time' storyline but we don't know what could have happened since the TARDIS could have done anything between them." My position was simple - that if we introduced stuff that was never onscreen or even referred to then we lose all points of reference. After all, if the other person posited that "something happened" then I could posit that something else happened that negated that thing and so on.

Like I said - the above is a very geeky and nerdy thing to talk about... But the basic argument is applicable to here as well. If we abandon what we know and just start saying "Well there could be tech we don't know about yet that aliens do and they use it" then we have given up on any real scientific attempt to find out what this phenomenon is.

I don't doubt that there is a whole lot of things we don't know about yet. But we can't just posit those things - we have to at least try to remain within the confines of what we know (Or at least what we can realistically imagine).

[sinewave]

karl 12, on 05 November 2009 - 01:01 PM, said:

Yes, maybe they live 'off planet' on self contained ships free from the dangers of earthquakes,volcanoes,tidal waves etc.. - that would negate the distance problem.

Alternately they may be able to fold space-time; be time travellers ;have an extra dimensional origin or come from under the sea.

Thats the problem with presupposing anything - we just don't know.

The one thing we do know however is that the UFO subject is a very real one and there are quite a number of incidents which defy rational explanation.

Cheers.

Cosmic events make earthquakes and tidal waves look like amusement park rides so they would not be buying much by doing that. I agree it may be possible to bend space time but the current theories suggest it would require enormous amounts of energy. Some cleaver guys at NASA suggested the possibility of harnessing the energy of stars. I have no clue how that would be done but there may well be enough there to make it happen. Of course there is the small matter of having the technology to do it. Under the sea? Perhaps, but that is yet another pile of anecdotes to sift though.