[Perdition]

M.A.D, on 08 November 2009 - 02:58 PM, said:

lest us not forget that with it there is some truth and just because one can't find the truth in one's search, dos not mean it is not there.

Even without proof you cannot claim something else to be true.

Science has its credibility in that if something does not have 100% evidence it is called a theory in where something must be tested for repeatedly until it is proven right or wrong. Notice i say wrong because there have been times where science has been wrong, but scientist are willing to admit to this wrong and change their perspective.

The bible has no evidence, yet people claim it to be true without tests, without evidence. That is the fine line that distinguishes science and religion.

[Homer]

Tiggs, on 08 November 2009 - 02:49 PM, said:

Interesting.

Can you show somewhere in the Bible where yom means an unspecified period of time? Every single use of the word I can find always refers to a day.

There are literally several dozen places in scripture where yom refers to unspecified time periods. Here's a couple verses for starters:

1Kings 1:1 Now King David was old, advanced in age; and they covered him with clothes, but he could not keep warm.(NASB)
‘Age’(or ‘years’ in the KJV) is the Hebrew word yom.

Genesis 4:3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.(NASB)
‘Time’ is yom.

[mklsgl]

oops. See post below.

This post has been edited by mklsgl: 10 November 2009 - 12:55 AM

[mklsgl]

Homer, on 09 November 2009 - 09:21 AM, said:

There are literally several dozen places in scripture where yom refers to unspecified time periods. Here's a couple verses for starters:

1Kings 1:1 Now King David was old, advanced in age; and they covered him with clothes, but he could not keep warm.(NASB)
'Age'(or 'years' in the KJV) is the Hebrew word yom.

Genesis 4:3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.(NASB)
'Time' is yom.

Your understanding of Hebrew is a bit lacking. "Yom" in the Torah means 'day.' I can show you the actual Hebrew. Can you show me the Hebrew characters used to spell "age" and "time" because those are different words in Hebrew (not Yom)?

Edit: I didn't want to wait. Here it is (Genesis 4:3):

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
וַֽיְהִ֖י מִקֵּ֣ץ יָמִ֑ים וַיָּבֵ֨א קַ֜יִן מִפְּרִ֧י הָֽאֲדָמָ֛ה מִנְחָ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויהי מקץ ימים ויבא קין מפרי האדמה מנחה ליהוה׃

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants & Vowels)
וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ יָמִים וַיָּבֵא קַיִן מִפְּרִי הָאֲדָמָה מִנְחָה לַיהוָה׃

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew Bible
ויהי מקץ ימים ויבא קין מפרי האדמה מנחה ליהוה׃

Find "Yom" in any of the 4? No.

This post has been edited by mklsgl: 10 November 2009 - 12:54 AM

[mklsgl]

יָמִ֑ים = Of Time

[IamsSon]

Tiggs, on 08 November 2009 - 12:49 PM, said:

Interesting.

Can you show somewhere in the Bible where yom means an unspecified period of time? Every single use of the word I can find always refers to a day.

Quote

Strong's H3117 - yowm יום Transliteration

yowm

Pronunciation

yome (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

from an unused root meaning to be hot

TWOT Reference

852

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b ) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year

f) temporal references

1) today

2) yesterday

3) tomorrow

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

Quote

Gen 4:3 And in process ⁷⁰⁹³ of time ³¹¹⁷ it came to pass, that Cain ⁷⁰¹⁴ brought ⁹³⁵ of the fruit ⁶⁵²⁹ of the ground ¹²⁷ an offering ⁴⁵⁰³ unto the LORD ³⁰⁶⁸.

Quote

Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering ⁴⁵⁰³ of Judah ³⁰⁶³ and Jerusalem ³³⁸⁹ be pleasant ⁶¹⁴⁹ unto the LORD ³⁰⁶⁸, as in the days ³¹¹⁷ of old ⁵⁷⁶⁹, and as in former ⁶⁹³¹ years ⁸¹⁴¹.

Now, understand, that I personally have no problem either way. I believe God is an omnipotent being and could easily have created the universe, and all life on Earth or the universe in one instant, or He could have taken ages to do so, or He could have done it in 6 literal 24-hour days.

This post has been edited by IamsSon: 10 November 2009 - 04:08 PM

[Homer]

mklsgl, on 09 November 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

Your understanding of Hebrew is a bit lacking. "Yom" in the Torah means 'day.' I can show you the actual Hebrew. Can you show me the Hebrew characters used to spell "age" and "time" because those are different words in Hebrew (not Yom)?

Edit: I didn't want to wait. Here it is (Genesis 4:3):

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
וַֽיְהִ֖י מִקֵּ֣ץ יָמִ֑ים וַיָּבֵ֨א קַ֜יִן מִפְּרִ֧י הָֽאֲדָמָ֛ה מִנְחָ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויהי מקץ ימים ויבא קין מפרי האדמה מנחה ליהוה׃

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants & Vowels)
וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ יָמִים וַיָּבֵא קַיִן מִפְּרִי הָאֲדָמָה מִנְחָה לַיהוָה׃

בראשית 4:3 Hebrew Bible
ויהי מקץ ימים ויבא קין מפרי האדמה מנחה ליהוה׃

Find "Yom" in any of the 4? No.

mklsgl,
Unfortunately, my understanding of Hebrew is, always was, and always will be lacking.
I appreciate you pointing out the spelling differences, and looking a little deeper into this, I realize my word studies will have to include more research.

Each of your 4 links went to a different page on biblos.com, and the links are parallel texts of the same chapter, Genesis 4. Since it had the entire chapter, I cleared it up a little by clicking on the appropriate verse(3). Each one showed the word ‘time’ as being Strong’s#3117, which Strong shows the root is yom, and having the exact spelling as the creation account word for ‘day’. That was my confusion. Same concordance#, different spelling of original word, which Strong's did not mention. Thank you for pointing that out.

That being said, when doing this deeper research, I still don’t see proof that yom is specifically and only a 24 hour period.
Genesis 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.(NASB)
The exact same Hebrew spelling is used for both words(yom), yet it is clear the first one indicates a period(light) of the day, or daylight. Does one even need to look further to see with absolute clarity that yom does not specifically mean 24 hours?

[marabod]

mklsgl, on 10 November 2009 - 01:01 PM, said:

יָמִ֑ים = Of Time

I basically agree with your conclusions of this yom thing. Just want to add two aspects of reading the Bible now, few thousand years after its first books were written.

1. Obviously, the language of a nomadic tribe could not be excessively rich, and the word count in it cannot be compared to any modern language. Hence the multiple meanings of one the same word, which problem in general must be aggravated by the manner of Semitic written language to present reduced words or even their roots by omitting the vowels. Bible was written not in one day, and during the long historical period of its creation the language was evolving, so some later books may contain the new meanings of the words.

2. Reading the Bible with the Hebrew dictionary in another hand is wrong, because no dictionary points to the timeframe, when some meaning became active in use. Dictionaties reflect modern Hebrew, its pronunciations and meanings, but the Bible was written in Old Hebrew, which was completely different language - the difference is like between Latin and Italian, or even greater. However, we have a Greek translation, Septuagint, made 2300 years ago by the Jewish scholars - and they spend 30 years on verifying each word and its meaning. Septuagint tells us, how the ancient Jews were understanding the meanings of the Biblical words - and most of the modern translations of the Bible are one way or another verified versus Septuagint or versus its verified translations into the other languages.

I also have to say a word in support of King James Bible, which was criticised here as lacking precision. This is completely untrue. KJV is a Protestant Bible, on its title page it says "translated out of the original tongues; and with the former translations diligently compared and revised". KJV was translated from Jewish Masoretic text and verified versus other existing translations. I normally use Russian Synodical version, which is also translated from Masoretic texts; it is a Catholic form of the Bible, so the parts, missing from Masoretic texts were translated from Septuagint; then the entire text was standardised versus the same Septuagint. The text differs from KJV in some parts only (say, 14 chapters of Daniel vs 12 chapters in KJV), but in all other places they both are exact copies of each other with only few occasional insignificant deviations. In fact KJV is the closest text to the Russian one which I am aware of, as modern versions in many places go astray. Meanwhile this modern Russian text fully agrees in all details with the Old Bulgarian (Old Slavonic) Bible, translated almost 1000 years ago, which I also read few times - it is not on Biblegateway.com, but I guess this is because of fonts complexity, as it is not in modern Cyrillics (the text places the modified Greek letters above another, not only in line).

[bilaya85]

I am a Christian, more specifically I am Eastern Orthodox. I don't follow the Bible as a direct from the mouth dictation of how we should act, primarily because it was written through man and not God. Also being familiar with other languages yourself, you should be well aware that through translation technical terms such as unicorns can be strained from other words. Untranslatable... perhaps meaning "strong, unimaginable, beautiful, etc". It is not the minor details of some biblical tales that make the book of Savior Jesus Christ significant, as you already are aware. I'm assuming all of this basing my judgment to be that you are Islamic and understand Jesus to be a great man as well. If I've assumed your religion inaccurate I apologize and please make me aware of it.

[mklsgl]

Homer, on 10 November 2009 - 12:41 PM, said:

mklsgl,
Unfortunately, my understanding of Hebrew is, always was, and always will be lacking.
I appreciate you pointing out the spelling differences, and looking a little deeper into this, I realize my word studies will have to include more research.

Each of your 4 links went to a different page on biblos.com, and the links are parallel texts of the same chapter, Genesis 4. Since it had the entire chapter, I cleared it up a little by clicking on the appropriate verse(3). Each one showed the word 'time' as being Strong's#3117, which Strong shows the root is yom, and having the exact spelling as the creation account word for 'day'. That was my confusion. Same concordance#, different spelling of original word, which Strong's did not mention. Thank you for pointing that out.

That being said, when doing this deeper research, I still don't see proof that yom is specifically and only a 24 hour period.
Genesis 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.(NASB)
The exact same Hebrew spelling is used for both words(yom), yet it is clear the first one indicates a period(light) of the day, or daylight. Does one even need to look further to see with absolute clarity that yom does not specifically mean 24 hours?

I apologize if I came off as being a jerk about it. Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew is quite the problematic because the scribes at that time did not use any punctuation or accent marks and that makes for misunderstanding. "Yom" means the 24-hour period of time between sundowns. And, you are correct in stating that it is used as a root (which you know already!). Hebrew is a complicated language. The characters that form words are multi-layered. They have numerical values and they have symbolic values in addition to there literary values.

Also, IamsSon is correct in that there are lots of Rabbis who agree that the "days" of Genesis could mean a much greater period of time than 24 hours. Other Hebrew texts explore this notion.

[Homer]

mklsgl, on 10 November 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:

I apologize if I came off as being a jerk about it.

Being straightforward and being a jerk are two different things to me, so you weren’t being a jerk about it, and there is nothing to apologize for. Perhaps my smiley(or frownie) should have been prior to the period, but it was meant to be directed at Strongs, not you.
I was in error, and you were right in calling me on it.

mklsgl, on 10 November 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:

"Yom" means the 24-hour period of time between sundowns.

Does yom always mean that? How about my last example of Genesis 1:5?
Genesis 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.(NASB)
Unless I’m completely braindead(which just might be the case), it seems to me that it is with absolute certainty that both ‘yom’s’ are spelled exactly the same, yet have different meanings. Not much cross referencing needed when the differences are in the same verse.

mklsgl, on 10 November 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:

Hebrew is a complicated language.

Reminds me of a quote from Martin Luther:

Quote

If I were younger, I would want to learn this language [Hebrew], for without it one can never properly understand the Holy Scripture... For that reason they have said correctly: ‘The Jews drink out of the original spring, the Greeks drink out of the stream flowing out of the stream, the Latins, however, out of the puddle.

...Then there is modern english...

[mklsgl]

Homer, on 10 November 2009 - 04:18 PM, said:

Being straightforward and being a jerk are two different things to me, so you weren't being a jerk about it, and there is nothing to apologize for. Perhaps my smiley(or frownie) should have been prior to the period, but it was meant to be directed at Strongs, not you.
I was in error, and you were right in calling me on it.


Does yom always mean that? How about my last example of Genesis 1:5?
Genesis 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.(NASB)
Unless I'm completely braindead(which just might be the case), it seems to me that it is with absolute certainty that both 'yom's' are spelled exactly the same, yet have different meanings. Not much cross referencing needed when the differences are in the same verse.


Reminds me of a quote from Martin Luther:

...Then there is modern english...

No you're not brain-dead. The 'Old Hebrew' doesn't translate to those exact words but rather to the 'spirit' of those words. That's the best way I can explain it. I can post the 'Old Hebrew' with the exact translation and you can see for yourself?

[Homer]

mklsgl, on 10 November 2009 - 07:47 PM, said:

The 'Old Hebrew' doesn't translate to those exact words but rather to the 'spirit' of those words. That's the best way I can explain it. I can post the 'Old Hebrew' with the exact translation and you can see for yourself?

I know the old Hebrew didn't translate into those exact words, but the old Hebrew does have 2 'yoms' in that verse, both with different meanings. Gen 1:5a is yom as an unspecified length of time(daylight) and Gen 1:5b shows yom as a 24 hour day.

[draconic chronicler]

PixelPerfect, on 02 November 2009 - 08:40 PM, said:

These days "new age", and non-traditional christians share a large majority of what we call "christianity." So, to avoid confusion; I'll define christian as a belief in God(Yaweh, ancient jewish god), aswell as Jesus(the son of, or the earthly form of, God/Yaweh.) aaaaand that a belief in and acceptence of Jesus results in everlasting life/heavely promise, or other goodies.


Right, first question: why is the Bible so historically inaccurate? I'm sure the historical innacuracies have been pointed out to you. In case they haven't; tell me, I'll dredge some up for you.
Wouldn't a perfect God make no mistakes in his record keeping? Especially considering that some of the records were not supposed to be documentable except through God

Second question:
Hundreds of bible prophecies have failed to come true, why?
The bible is ripe with prophecies that never got fullfilled.
Again, I'll get some for you, if you want.

Final question:
What's with the bibles' constant obsesion with animals that never existed?
The bible like unicorns, even says God was stronger than one.
And dragons...



Please, answer these questions for me.

Question One: Actually, archaeology has proven the Bible is FULL of very good history, though there are also inaccuracies. The problem is that there are a few Christians that INSIST the Bible is completely inspired by god and everything must be true. This stance cannot be supported.

Question Two: Yes there are some bad prophecies. Many Christians understand the Bible is not "magically" perfect, since it was imperfect men who decided what scriptures would be included. Understand that just because a Jewish or Christian writer wrote a 'Bible story' it does not mean it is true. The fault is in the chruch leaders who decided which ones could be true or not.

Question Three: The term unicorn was put in the KJV simply because the ancient animals could not always be identified with modern ones, and it was believed there were unicorns because of the physical evidence of their horns (which we now know belonged to a whale). And dragons? Every human culture beleived in dragons, and they are still spiritual creatures to billions in Asian cultures. But the Genesis story is quite remarkable in that it states that life began in the sea, and that there was an era of birds and dragons (Mesozoic) before the current age of mammals. Dragons would have been a suitable word to describe dinosaurs, as this word had not been invented until the 19th century. Nessie, Champ, and hundreds of other reptilian type cryptids seen all over the world by countless witnesse may indeed be the creatures our ancestors called dragons. In fact, few christians are aware that dragons are actually supernatural, heavenly creatures. This is what the word 'Serpahim' actually means, though modern christians have misunderstood this term to mean winged, humanoid angels, when it actually menas fiery flying serpents.