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The shroud of Turin


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#31    saucy

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 02:11 PM

That's another good one Chauny?  I just figured one out myself.  What was the judgement of man in the beginning for eating the fruit?  Having being banished from the garden.  Their punishment, the bible said, was thorns and thistles.  Now, that's interesting seeming as though part of what Jesus paid for was a crown of thorns.  


#32    AndyThorley

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 06:17 PM

QUOTE (saucy @ May 30 2004, 03:11 PM)
That's another good one Chauny?  I just figured one out myself.  What was the judgement of man in the beginning for eating the fruit?  Having being banished from the garden.  Their punishment, the bible said, was thorns and thistles.  Now, that's interesting seeming as though part of what Jesus paid for was a crown of thorns.

Wasnt there a big long list of things we get because some dude gave in to temptation?

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#33    MrScuzzles

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 01:13 AM

I understand, Saucy, that you want to protect your religion for all you're worth because you feel your beliefs are at stake.  But there are no religions at stake.  Jesus could have existed even without the shroud.  Heck, we have to Bible as our proof.  Also, your flirting with the big fat line between religion and ignorance.  You've repeatedly stated things and then, when people shoot down your statements, you agree with them and come up with a new excuse.  Jesus was a wonderful person and nobody here is saying he doesn't exist.  We are simple questioning whether or not an ancient relic is a fake or not.


#34    Falco Rex

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 04:25 AM

Hey there Saucy. Just thought I'd throw in to explain why Jesus had a crown of thorns and why it had nothing to do with verse in Genesis you allude to.

In the Early days of Rome,when they were still consolidating thiier hold on the Italian Peninsula, there was a Bandit, who's real name has been lost, who acquired a large band of followers. He was so good at terrorizing the countryside and evading the Army that his men jokingly called him the Bandit King. They crowned him king with a laurel crown and started referring to him as Laurelius(One who is crowned). Eventually Laurelius was captured and his men defeated. They took his Laurel Crown and replaced it with one of thorns and then crucified him.
It became sort of a Roman tradition thereafter that self-styled Kings would wear the crown of thorns. Since they no-doubt heard that Jesus was said to be King of the Jews they crowned him at his crucifixion too.

..On a side note Laurelius was later a play in the Roman Theatre. Whenever it was performed a convicted criminal would play the part of Laurelius, and was crucified live on stage. And people say the theatre is boring!


#35    moe eubleck

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 04:46 AM

  Moe wonders when someone will discover  a  relic called "The Holy Hanky of Jerusalem".
  Jesus had to wipe his boogers on something.  blink.gif


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#36    saucy

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 04:26 PM

Thanks for everyone's concern, but I have to say that my religion is not at stake.  I've said many times areound that I will not lose my faith because of a couple of people disagree with me on this forum.  There are many christians here at this site and I'm only one of the very few that enjoys argueing with those who do not believe.  I am at an early stage in my religion and I'm going through a transitional stage from where I believed in evolution and wasn't religious to suddenly beliveing.  That's an akward stage for anyone.  I do not agree with what everyone says.  I've even said that if the shroud was found not to be that of Jesus, it wouldn't hurt my religion.  Just because there is no shroud, doesn't mean there is no Jesus.  I know what I believe and I'm not gonna change it because of what others say on a forum.  

Also, many people here say that Jesus never existed and refuse to believe he does.  They believe the bible is just make-believe.  I realize that sometimes I may give in because I get tired of arguing and it's pointless.  I get made fun of and the rest and I get sick of it, but if I just give up altogether, people will think I gave in and they're right.  I know I'm not right about everything and that I have a lot of learning to do and I even interpret things wrong, but don't call me ignorant because I'm learning.

Thanks for the information Falco Rex.  I thought Jesus was the only one who had the crown of thorns.  


#37    SilverCougar

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 06:59 PM

See I never said that Jesus never existed.  I just think of him as like.. Gahndi..  A guy who took a look around and said "Peace is a good thing!" And went to share his views.  But back then in the age of gods, and magic... people can easily use the power of suggestion to make things more then they seem.

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#38    Stellar

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE (saucy @ May 31 2004, 05:26 PM)
but don't call me ignorant because I'm learning.

Then stop saying things like "The bible has an amazing accuracy(100%) with being right."

Thats gonna haunt you for a long time wink2.gif

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#39    saucy

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 09:14 PM

Let me explain this to one more time.  When I said the bible has an incredible 100% accuracy, I was refering to the old testament prophecies concerning Jesus.  I don't give a damn if you don't believe the old testament was written before the new testament, but it has been proven historically that it was.  The authors of the old testament, who lived a thousand years before Christ, predicted the life of Jesus and got every singe prophecy correct.  Everything written in the old testament happened just it was suppose to.  In that fact, the bible has a 100% accuracy.  You also cannot prove that the bible is wrong historically or in any other manner so.... tongue.gif  


#40    SilverCougar

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 09:26 PM

Ofcourse it's going to look correct.  I'm quite sure the people who wrote about Jesus and the new testement read the koran/old testement and did pretty much what people do today with Nostradomous(Spillink?) pretictions.  "Yeah..hey... that kinda fits... this guy kinda is doing what the Koran says...  *scribble scribe write*





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#41    Chauncy

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE
Everything written in the old testament happened just it was suppose to. In that fact, the bible has a 100% accuracy. You also cannot prove that the bible is wrong historically or in any other manner so.... 


The prophecy in the bible came true in the bible as it was suppose to, no great accomplishment there. You already have a compositional strategy in the bible, therefore bible words will reflect this.

If Jesus was already written about then people were looking for him. It is a common invention of oppressed people.....a coming messiah.


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#42    Stellar

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 09:50 PM

First of all saucy, the bible is the bible, 100% accurate means everything in the bible is 100% accurate, not part. Second of all, how can it be proven if it wasnt even proven that Jesus existed, let alone existed and performed miracles and did everything the Bible sais he did? Heres the first step, you gotta admit the possibility that Jesus was edited/created by man(for whatever reasons) in order to match the prophecies, and infact the real Jesus (if he existed) might have not been the way the Bible depicts him. Dont you agree with that as a possibility? You cannot prove the Bible WITH the Bible. What you're doing here is along the same lines as "The Bible is Gods word" "How do you know" "Because the Bible says that its Gods word"

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#43    saucy

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 10:06 PM

I don't know if I'm willing to accept that Jesus never lived.  It's the whole bases of my religion.  It's the whole reason why I argue so hard.  It was Jesus' disciples who wrote about him and we know they lived.  If they wrote all of the new testament and it wasn't written how they died, then how do we know?  How do we know that most of them were crucified when it wasn't recorded in the bible?  History shows that they lived and were the starters of christianity.  The very same history shows the Jesus too lived.  You may not see it sitting behind the computer or by simply readind the bible.  He's in written recorded history.  Not just the bible, but Roman history and if you were to visit Jerusalem, you can follow where he walked and was crucified.  It should become very clear that indeed a man named Jesus did live two thousand years ago and he had a major impact on life.  Some of us don't believe in Jesus, some believe he lived, but was nothing more than a man, and some say he was the messiah.  What I believe and what you believe are obviously conflicting.  WE ARE NOT GOING TO MOVE IN OUR POSITION ON THIS SUBJECT!  WHY ARGUE IT?  You say it's a learning experience?  No.  It's a chance for you to bash those who believe Jesus is the messiah.  That's what you've been doing all along.  You want a good religious debate, then that's what my site is for.  I could use a few people like you over there, people with a differing view point.  All i've been asking is that you don't bash me or anyone else because of our beliefs.  I'm not anymore ignorant than you just because I believe in God or that Jesus performed miracles.  It's what Jesus did when he was here that makes the difference for us.  You don't believe it?  Fine, that's your choice, you've defended your case, you're a good person, but there's no reason to keep these threads open here at this site.  


#44    Aslan

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 10:11 PM

I agree with you saucy. This thread is about the Turin Shroud.

Back on topic, if you can, people.


#45    AndyThorley

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Posted 31 May 2004 - 10:18 PM

Saucy, my man...correct me if I'm incorrect, but did the romans not give Jesus the crown of thorns mocking his claims to be the king of the Jews? (Or the way people were calling him king of the jews, whatever)

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