[Neognosis]

hmmm... lots to condider.

[Cetacea]

If you would like more food for thought, the earlier quoted 'Case Against Marine Mammals in Captivity' (downloadable pdf at the bottom of the page) provides lots of information if you are interested, as well as providing all their sources, so you can look the facts up for yourself without needing to trust blindly. The WDCS also provides a lot of information as well as downloadable reports on captivity. PBS did an extensive report on it; "A whale of a business.". Another charity that provides reports and news on captivity is Marine Connection. Orca network focuses on orcas, specifically Lolita, her origin and living conditions. There are obviously a lot more websites, some less reliable than others, the ones I've given I've found to provide well founded news and publications rather than just saying dolphins are cute, they need to swim free

A fairly recent article specifically on Belugas;
Latest scientific research shows captive belugas live shortened lives

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 11:10 AM

[witchfinder general]

BlindMessiah, on 03 November 2009 - 06:04 PM, said:

It should of thought twice before it bombed Hiroshima.

attention! new evidence released by the government shows the actual bombers of hiroshima were a cow and a chicken! whales and dolphins were framed!!

since they let people pay money to visit zoos and aquariums, why doesnt someone charge for guests to watch death row prisoners do a rendition of Hello Dolly or Fame! that would be entertainment! if they die in captivity, meh.

[Bill Hill]

Mattshark, on 03 November 2009 - 06:17 PM, said:

Actually no they are not well cared for and they attack far more people in captivity than they do in the wild. What educating them on cruelty to animals? They do nothing for educating the public, that is why it is becoming increasingly banned worldwide.
Oh you know you could drive (get a train, bus, walk) to most coasts in most countries and see them for either very little or free.
But don't let your complete ignorance get in the way.

There you go.. Georgia Aquarium.
Current Projects
Whale Shark Conservation:

At the Georgia Aquarium, we are committed to advancing the scientific community's understanding of whale sharks and growing public awareness of this flagship species for sharks. Click here to learn more.
Join us on our annual Eco Tour to Mexico and see our researchers in action!
Dolphin Conservation Field Station:

Georgia Aquarium has opened a Dolphin Conservation
Field Station in Marineland, Florida, just outside of St.
Augustine, Florida. The conservation field station will
serve as a marine mammal rescue, rehabilitation and research center for stranded animals in Georgia and northeast Florida. The conservation field station includes research and veterinary facilities, quarantine pools for rehabilitating rescued animals, both land and water
animal rescue vehicles and housing for researchers
and staff. After a successful rescue and rehabilitation, animals deemed releasable by National Marine Fisheries Service will be reintroduced into their habitats! Learn more about the Dolphin Conservation Field Station and the Dolphin Conservation Center at Marineland.

link

[Bill Hill]

Which is going to help whales, sharks and dolphins more?
People seeing them up close thus identifying with them and supporting conservation projects or reading a boring scientific paper, written by a dork who thinks only he and only the privileged deserves to see marine life in the wild.

I like the big cats, Tigers and lions but I can't afford to keep going to Africa or India on safari to see them. And of course there's the risk of being kidnapped murdered etc...by bandits or Guerillas.
Someone I knew, got hacked up in Uganda by guerillas trying to see real Gorillas.

This post has been edited by Bill Hill: 04 November 2009 - 12:02 PM

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 11:44 AM, said:

There you go.. Georgia Aquarium.
Current Projects
Whale Shark Conservation:

At the Georgia Aquarium, we are committed to advancing the scientific community's understanding of whale sharks and growing public awareness of this flagship species for sharks. Click here to learn more.
Join us on our annual Eco Tour to Mexico and see our researchers in action!

Yes, The Georgia Aquarium site will surely give unbiased information about the Georgia Aquarium....

You'll be hardpressed to find an aquarium that does not give to conservation in one way or another, it's a popular get out of jail free card, but look how much good we are doing, clearly that rights the wrong of keeping unsuitable animals in inadequate habitats compromising their welfare and cutting their life expectancy in half....What would really be interesting to know is how much of their profits go towards it, it's rarely more than about 1%....

To be fair the number of whale sharks they autopsied with inconclusive cause of death after they died despite force feeding and intensive vet care will probably give some interesting insights, say; whale sharks are completely unsuitable for captivity...
Stomach problems lead to death of whale shark
Second whale shark euthanised
Humans might pose hazard to whale sharks in 'swim with programs'

Once again, intersting disparity in 'education' and scientific research, estimates of whale shark longevity:
Fishbase: max. reported age: 70 years (Bobick, J.E. and M. Peffer 1993 Science and technology desk reference. Gale Research Inc.))
Georgia Aquarium:The aging and life span of whale sharks has not yet been determined. We know for certain they can live at least 12 years because a whale shark has been on display in Japan for that long. The life span of whale sharks is just beginning to be studied and is not understood at this time. A long-term goal of the Georgia Aquarium is to understand the life span and natural history of whale sharks.

Very educational.... I mean, seriously, if all the information they provide is that well researched, if all the research they do is of that same quality, why it must be worth compromising these animals welfare!
Also noted their website is not very helpful in supplying information about the individual whale sharks, hmmm, wonder why.... maybe because the rate they are losing them at?

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 12:41 PM

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 12:00 PM, said:

Which is going to help whales, sharks and dolphins more?
People seeing them up close thus identifying with them and supporting conservation projects or reading a boring scientific paper, written by a dork who thinks only he and only the privileged deserves to see marine life in the wild.

So you explain the enthusiams for cetaceans in countries that have outlawed cetacean captivity how exactly?
Why are dolphins consistently one of the most popular animals in polls in the UK? There's not a single captive facility.
I refer you back to the humpback example, noone keeps it, yet people are supporting their conservation worldwide and are outraged by the prospect of the Japanese hunting them.
As I said before, seeing dolphins in the wild is not hard and usually cheaper than SeaWorld, certainly in the UK, as you would have to fly to another country to see them in captivity. You can see dolphins close up without going to a delphinarium.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 12:00 PM, said:

I like the big cats, Tigers and lions but I can't afford to keep going to Africa or India on safari to see them. And of course there's the risk of being kidnapped murdered etc...by bandits or Guerillas.
Someone I knew, got hacked up in Uganda by guerillas trying to see real Gorillas.

And while these animals are definitely difficult to keep in captivity they still do a lot better than dolphins and zoos tend to make more of an effort as well. The jaguar enclosure in Chester Zoo for example has recreated a rainforest szenario, they use olfactory and acoustic enrichment and do carcass feeds to encourage natural behaviour. What do cetaceans get? A bare concrete tank with some beach balls. A dolphins primary sense is hearing, yet nothing is done to stimulate it in that way, nor are they encouraged to hunt or use their echolocation.
Some animals are not suitable to be kept in captivity. Some zoos do great conservation work, others do not. You cannot compare completely different species with different requirements. Even different species of bears do drastically different in captivity, brown bears do far better than polar bears for example.
We as a species have the arrogance to presume we have the rightto see any species we set our mind to. It's not a right, it's a priviledge, some of them we can keep in zoos to satisfy our curiosity in that ways which is great but others die at our hands in those institutions, that is just not acceptable.
I have never seen a wild orca but despite having the chance I did not run to SeaWorld to see them there. I would rather not see them at all then see them in a paddling pool doing demeaning and meaningless tricks. Documentaries are more educational and show the animals like they truly are rather than making them into fluffy Disney characters that have no semblance of the real world.
Which brings us to the next issue, Delphinaria have the added problem of not only insisting on keeping completely unsuitable species, they insist on making them do tricks for the entertainment of the visitors. Training has shown to have next to no benefit as enrichment despite what they say, it's not beneficial to the animals, it's beneficial for the aquarium. If people saw a bear balding from stress with a trainer riding on it's back grinning around a bare concrete cage, there would be an uproar, yet it's perfectly acceptable for dolphins to be treated like that.

[Bill Hill]

Mattshark, on 03 November 2009 - 06:17 PM, said:

Oh you know you could drive (get a train, bus, walk) to most coasts in most countries and see them for either very little or free.

yeah, not many Great whites, whale sharks or killer whales down margate is there..

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 12:28 PM, said:

Why are dolphins consistently one of the most popular animals in polls in the UK? There's not a single captive facility.

Dolphins great example.. no one cared about them until they were 'domesticated' and trained.. it all started with the success of TV programs like Flipper..(Everyone's favorite aquatic friend)
and of course, Sea world. Ah yes, when I was growing up, that was the dream holiday every school kid wanted to go and see.

One thing's for sure their popularity isn't due to boring old scientific papers..

"Papa I've just read Nature Magazine, and yes Tursiops truncatus or bottlenose Dolphin is now one's favorite animal..."


Dolphins, yep they're quite happy in captivity; they've got warm water, fresh fish everyday.. belly rubs and they love kids as well as their trainers. They're quite the precocious little show-offs..
"Look! I can do back flips... look at me everyone!"
And they do.. Everyone looks at them and loves them.

[Mattshark]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 01:31 PM, said:

yeah, not many Great whites, whale sharks or killer whales down margate is there..

Well there are killer whales (the largest species of dolphin). No whites but there are short fin mako and porbeagle sharks. No whale sharks but there are basking sharks and tiger sharks are not unknown in the Channel.

We also get:
Bottlenose dolphin
Short beaked common dolphin
Harbour porpoise
White beaked dolphin
atlantic whitesided dolphin
Risso's dolphin
Long finned pilot whale (a species of dolphin)
False killer whale (also a dolphin)
Pygmy sperm whale
Northern bottlenose whale
True's beaked whale
Sowerby's beaked whale
Cuvier's beaked whale
Fin whale
Humpback whale
Minke whale
Blue whale
Sei whale
Thresher shark
Scalloped hammerhead shark
Angel shark
Tope
Blue shark
Spiney dogfish
Lesser spotted catshark
Greater spotted catshark
Starry smouthhound
Common skate
Thornback ray


Maybe you could just educate yourself instead of whinging about species you don't even know are there.

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 01:31 PM, said:

yeah, not many Great whites, whale sharks or killer whales down margate is there..

Guess what, wild killer whales still closer to you than ones in captive dispaly facilities!

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 01:49 PM, said:

Dolphins great example.. no one cared about them until they were 'domesticated' and trained.. it all started with the success of TV programs like Flipper..(Everyone's favorite aquatic friend)
and of course, Sea world. Ah yes, when I was growing up, that was the dream holiday every school kid wanted to go and see.

One thing's for sure their popularity isn't due to boring old scientific papers..
"Papa I've just read Nature Magazine, and yes Tursiops truncatus or bottlenose Dolphin is now one's favorite animal..."

Yes it must be all those captive display facilities in the UK that are still driving the popularity, I'm sure... Oh wait, they were banned years ago.
So much for having to be a rich elitist to see dolphins in the wild, let's see what's more expensive, flying to America to go to SeaWorld and the ludicrous admission fees going down to say, Cardigan Bay, Shannon Estuary or Moray Firth to see wild dolphins from either land or boat....hmmmm.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 01:49 PM, said:

Dolphins, yep they're quite happy in captivity; they've got warm water, fresh fish everyday.. belly rubs and they love kids as well as their trainers. They're quite the precocious little show-offs..
"Look! I can do back flips... look at me everyone!"
And they do.. Everyone looks at them and loves them.

Or you could actually read the arguments and sources provided instead of flaunting statements that have already been comprehensively disproven.
But I guess that would require some level of reasoning skills which could be a little taxing on the mind I suppose and we wouldn't want to let facts get in the way now, makes life so much more uncomfortable, much nicer to live in a little bubble with convenient fact filter that does not disturb our perfect happy world view!
Just to make sure, you do realise dolphins cannot alter their facial expression?
Just checking in case you were trying to use the picture to support your point, if you chopped it's head off it would still have that expression on it's face.
But if we're going to go with cutesy pictures;
You can really feel Ky's love for his trainer:

And this dolphin just loves people....

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 02:10 PM

[Bill Hill]

Mattshark, on 04 November 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

We also get:
Bottlenose dolphin
Short beaked common dolphin
Harbour porpoise
White beaked dolphin
atlantic whitesided dolphin
Risso's dolphin
Long finned pilot whale (a species of dolphin)
False killer whale (also a dolphin)
Pygmy sperm whale
Northern bottlenose whale
True's beaked whale
Sowerby's beaked whale
Cuvier's beaked whale
Fin whale
Humpback whale
Minke whale
Blue whale
Sei whale
Thresher shark
Scalloped hammerhead shark
Angel shark
Tope
Blue shark
Spiney dogfish
Lesser spotted catshark
Greater spotted catshark
Starry smouthhound
Common skate
Thornback ray

Maybe you could just educate yourself instead of whinging about species you don't even know are there.

Great, great let's collect them, ROUND em all up and put in an aquarium so people can learn and appreciate them and become less ignorant.
I say, education is for the masses not elitist snobs.

Mattshark, on 04 November 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

Maybe you could just educate yourself instead of whinging about species you don't even know are there.

Right, I'm ignorant because I don't know all the different species of aquatic life in the sea, how am I suppose to know? Use my psychic powers?
How did you learn about them? from a book?
Yep, all because some scientist did the dirty work, Killed 'em, cut 'em up dissected and labeled them so your conscience can remain clean.

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 02:02 PM, said:

Guess what, wild killer whales still closer to you than ones in captive dispaly facilities!

yeah standing on the shore, watching miles away with a pair of binoculars.
People will think I'm a pedo..
No thanks.

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 02:02 PM, said:

flying to America to go to SeaWorld and the ludicrous admission fees going down to say, Cardigan Bay, Shannon Estuary or Moray Firth to see wild dolphins from either land or boat....hmmmm.

To be honest, I'd rather go to Seaworld than pay some old pikey to take me out in his fish stinking wooden boat. It might sink.
In fact it will probably sink.

[Mattshark]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:06 PM, said:

Great, great let's collect them, ROUND em all up and put in an aquarium so people can learn and appreciate them and become less ignorant.
I say, education is for the masses not elitist snobs.

Wow, you really are ignorant aren't you.
Must be so hard to go to the coast and you know, look. Far less elitist to charge large amounts of money to see them!

Quote

Right, I'm ignorant because I don't know all the different species of aquatic life in the sea, how am I suppose to know? Use my psychic powers?
How did you learn about them? from a book?
Yep, all because some scientist did the dirty work, Killed 'em, cut 'em up dissected and labeled them so your conscience can remain clean.

Or you could learn about them from observation and study of wild animals. You are ignorant. You have proven that already. Worse is that you are wilfully ignorant, you may as well go and join a creationist camp, you have achieved that level.

This post has been edited by Mattshark: 04 November 2009 - 02:19 PM

[Mattshark]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:15 PM, said:

To be honest, I'd rather go to Seaworld than pay some old pikey to take me out in his fish stinking wooden boat. It might sink.
In fact it will probably sink.

Yet you argue about elitism.


And you don't why you are hypocrite?

This post has been edited by Mattshark: 04 November 2009 - 02:20 PM