[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 02:02 PM, said:

You can really feel Ky's love for his trainer:

And this dolphin just loves people....

He didn't kill her. Apparently the silly bint was menstruating and still went into the water. Typical..
Sent poor old Ky spastic... he thought there was prey around, but anyway eventually he came to his senses and let her go.
You know full well if he wanted her dead, she would be dead.
Still, all's well that ends well, I'm sure him and his trainer still love each other and get along fine.

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:06 PM, said:

Great, great let's collect them, ROUND em all up and put in an aquarium so people can learn and appreciate them and become less ignorant.
I say, education is for the masses not elitist snobs.

I agree, people need to learn to appreciate animals but for what they are, not for what aquariums make them to be (entertaining funny clowns), so out with aquariums that perpetrate false facts to paint themselves in a better light and in with eco-tourism and documentaries, of which either have more education than anything SeaWorld has ever done.
If it's education you are really interested in, places like SeaWorld are not the place to go. There are some excellent aquariums, staying in the US; Monterrey Bay, and guess what, they refuse to keep cetaceans.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:06 PM, said:

Right, I'm ignorant because I don't know all the different species of aquatic life in the sea, how am I suppose to know? Use my psychic powers?
How did you learn about them? from a book?
Yep, all because some scientist did the dirty work, Killed 'em, cut 'em up dissected and labeled them so your conscience can remain clean.

Oh, i thought it was reasonable to assume since you seem to enjoy aquariums so much and since according to you aquariums holding large animals are the number one educational tool that needs to be preserved to educate the public, you would have been to a few and hence be up to date with all important issues! I mean with the top notch education provided by them, how could you not? Judging by what you said, I would think the wonderful experience you had there would spur you on to educate yourself further, to strive to understand the natural world around you and care about your local wildlife! Is that not what you have been saying?
No?
If books are too complicated there are also wonderful things called televisions that on odd occasions do show some rather interesting programs, Autumnwatch had an episode on orcas around the UK only weeks ago.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:15 PM, said:

yeah standing on the shore, watching miles away with a pair of binoculars.
People will think I'm a pedo..
No thanks.

To be honest, I'd rather go to Seaworld than pay some old pikey to take me out in his fish stinking wooden boat. It might sink.
In fact it will probably sink.

So because you are too lazy to make an effort you would rather have animals suffer in an aquarium. Great attitude!
Though admittedly ideally suited for delphinariums which are all about entertainment rather than the animals and exactly the problem I was pointing out before, people not willing to make the effort assuming they have the right to see these animals. In my personal opinion if you're willing to accept an animal's welfare being significantly impaired so that you can see it, you are forfeiting any right you ever had to see that animal.

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:22 PM, said:

He didn't kill her. Apparently the silly bint was menstruating and still went into the water. Typical..
Sent poor old Ky spastic... he thought there was prey around, but anyway eventually he came to his senses and let her go.
You know full well if he wanted her dead, she would be dead.
Still, all's well that ends well, I'm sure him and his trainer still love each other and get along fine.

The male trainer was menstruating,eh?
Well I guess I can see how that would be a little confusing!
I'm sure they love each other, maybe attacking your trainer on a regular basis like Kasatka does is just a way to show affection?
Orcas are smart, you wouldn't cut of your nose to spite your face (well I wouldn't), they know where the food comes from and they know food does not come when the trainers do not.

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 02:43 PM

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 02:31 PM, said:

The male trainer was menstruating,eh?

The Shamu case http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Vca0QYSeAgE


Look at these people.. I guarantee they will come from the show with a love and appreciation for these amazing animals which can only help conservation.
Really help.
Not simply 'raising awareness' and delude yourself into thinking you're doing something positive.
Anyone can do that..

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Xbnl1Ow93do

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 12:12 PM, said:

You'll be hardpressed to find an aquarium that does not give to conservation in one way or another, it's a popular get out of jail free card,

Oh right, damned if you do damned if you don't.
The Aquariums can't win.

So how are us poor mortals, suppose to enjoy the wonderful diverse sea life of the world's oceans.
Nothing worse than being preached to by someone who's hired a polluting speed boat to go visit the dolphins..killer whales, sharks etc and then come back, to tell you only they can appreciate them. Only they can see them close up..
The Jacques Cousteau syndrome

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:

The Shamu case http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Vca0QYSeAgE

One of many attacks, the picture I posted was a more recent one.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:

Look at these people.. I guarantee they will come from the show with a love and appreciation for these amazing animals which can only help conservation.
Really help.

I can see how much it moved you to find out more about orcas and their habitat. You definitely learned loads, like that they are happy in captivity and can do neat tricks for food.
I can tell you exactly what the kids are saying; Wow, Mum, can I be a Shamu trainer?
Not;Wow, Mum, I want to stop habitat destruction to preserve Shamu's family in the wild.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:

Not simply 'raising awareness' and delude yourself into thinking you're doing something positive.
Anyone can do that..

Wait isn't that what you said aquariums were doing, raising awareness and educatingthe public? Wasn't that your entire argument?
What exactly is it that you think they are doing? How are they really helping ? Apart from telling kids it's ok to dominate animals. The little good that may come from it is by far outweighed by the disadvantages for the animals.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Xbnl1Ow93do

Sorry, I have watched Shamu shows in the past to see what it's all about, it makes me want to hurl so I'll decline on this one, thanks.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:57 PM, said:

Oh right, damned if you do damned if you don't.
The Aquariums can't win.

Some can, the good ones that clearly care more for their animals than the entertainment do win. Love Monterrey Bay, love loads of other aquariums, just not the ones that are hypocritical in preaching conservation while they have animals struggling to survive in their own tanks.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:57 PM, said:

So how are us poor mortals, suppose to enjoy the wonderful diverse sea life of the world's oceans.
Nothing worse than being preached to by someone who's hired a polluting speed boat to go visit the dolphins..killer whales, sharks etc and then come back, to tell you only they can appreciate them. Only they can see them close up..
The Jacques Cousteau syndrome

Or you could go back and read past posts, but ok,let's simplify it for you,
I'll just repeat what I've said several times already once more, maybe it will get through: There are plenty of licensed whale watching operators around the coasts that take people out to see whales and dolphins while adhering to a strict code of conduct aimed to minimise disturbance. If you are actually worried about pollution and not just trying to find an excuse not to get cold and wet while seeing them, there are an increasing number of sailboats that do that too, dolphins bow ride a lot on sailboats so that's an extra bonus. Most whale watching boats also participate or cooperate with research teams meaning you are not only getting to see them, but you are supporting vital research that helps to conserve their habitat.There are also plenty of land based vantage points you can see dolphins from, when we lived in Anglesey there were numerous hot spots that you were near enough guaranteed to see porpoise from at pretty close range.
Or you can accept that you cannot do everything you want to do without compromising the aninmals you are so desperate to see. As previously mentioned, I am desperate to see wild orcas, I had the chance to go to SeaWorld but I didn't. I would rather try to go see them in the wild in the knowledge and accepting this might never happen and enjoy them on documentaries in the meanwhile than trying to go see them in a paddling pool.
Hiring a speed boat is certainly not a solution, especially if you have no experience seeing these animals in the wild, whale watching operators are a better choice as they know where to find them and how to behave around them to get the best experience for both sides.
Also if you are bothered about pollution, you should be fundamentally opposed to SeaWorld which are polluting the habitat of the wild cousins of their star dolphins.......

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 03:20 PM

[Mattshark]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 02:57 PM, said:

Oh right, damned if you do damned if you don't.
The Aquariums can't win.

So how are us poor mortals, suppose to enjoy the wonderful diverse sea life of the world's oceans.
Nothing worse than being preached to by someone who's hired a polluting speed boat to go visit the dolphins..killer whales, sharks etc and then come back, to tell you only they can appreciate them. Only they can see them close up..
The Jacques Cousteau syndrome

Is going to the coast really that hard to do? Wow, I'm amazed, I always found it quite simple.

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 03:11 PM, said:

I can tell you exactly what the kids are saying; Wow, Mum, can I be a Shamu trainer?
Not;Wow, Mum, I want to stop habitat destruction to preserve Shamu's family in the wild.

Maybe at first, but it;ll always be a positive memory.. when they find out they're under threat they're try and help. They know the animal well..
Unlike the poor old Giant African snail..

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 03:11 PM, said:

Wait isn't that what you said aquariums were doing, raising awareness and educating the public? Wasn't that your entire argument?
What exactly is it that you think they are doing? How are they really helping ?

My entire argument is it helps by showing the animal. Showing how beautiful and majestic it is so the kids, people can identify. Action through numbers.

Much more effective than some rich elitist going through their hippie stage.. preaching to poor people.
"jah you've got to save the dolphins, right.. I've seen them in the wild like and they're great. read books people.. big books about them.."


Or worse some hollywood star... please..
Hayden Panettiere has chosen to put her passion into a worldwide cause —
'They were teddy bears in the water,’ the actress said of the pilot whales.
link

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 03:36 PM, said:

Maybe at first, but it;ll always be a positive memory.. when they find out they're under threat they're try and help. They know the animal well..
Unlike the poor old Giant African snail..

My entire argument is it helps by showing the animal. Showing how beautiful and majestic it is so the kids, people can identify. Action through numbers.

Much more effective than some rich elitist going through their hippie stage.. preaching to poor people.
"jah you've got to save the dolphins, right.. I've seen them in the wild like and they're great. read books people.. big books about them.."

Why exactly is whale watching not an option again?
Why is it elitist when it's actually cheaper and a more natural experience? you did read the part where I continuously pointed out whale watching is often cheaper? Maybe would you like to calculate the cost of say, going to SeaWorld from here and say, going to Cardigan Bay to here to see some dolphins from a boat so it becomes a little clearer?
And if education and conservation is the premises of these aquariums, why do they showcase species, bottlenose dolphins and orcas, that are in fact, not globally endangered?
There is a reason why the most common response to 'I am a marine biologist/studying marine biology' is, 'Oh so do you like train dolphins?'
What proof can you offer that people who go to aquariums actually become actively involved in conservation?

If they are, are the benefits worth the cost?
Hundreds of animals suffering and dying premature deaths. In my opinion the alleged benefits are nowhere near to making up for the conditions they are kept under. It's not even just the fact that they being kept but the lack of effort being made to accomodate them properly coupled with the perpetration of false information, they do not educate about animals, they educate about their own alleged benefits and image of the animals that they themselves have created. You see it when you look at people interacting with dolphins, they presume they are friendly and happy and like to be touched and even ridden. You can see it in delphinaria every day, surely that must therefore be the right approach. It is in fact not and people and wild dolphins get injured when people who have visited delphinaria try to apply what they 'learned' there.

Aquariums do not do what they claim, they make people fall for their portrayal of these animals, for the show and the glamour, not for the real thing, most people do not have a further interest. You were apparently unaware of orcas in the UK and you are advocating what a wonderful place SeaWorld is/must be, if it had truly inspired interest and a will to learn more and get to know the animal, you would expect some basic knowledge about it...
I've spoken to many people who have seen dolphins in aquaria, a lot of them are not even aware there is more than one species of dolphin or that in fact they saw more than one species when they were there (orca and bottlenose dolphins). Clearly they do not get to know the animal, they get to know the animal the aquarium wants them to know, Shamu and Flipper.
I saw dolphins in aquaria when I was little. I can't say it stuck as a particularly wondeful or unique memory, I guess it was nice at the time, what I do remember clearly is seeing documentaries on telly while my mum was ironing and seeing my first dolphin in the wild several years later.

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 03:57 PM

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 03:51 PM, said:

Why exactly is whale watching not an option again?
Why is it elitist when it's actually cheaper and a more natural experience? you did read the part where I continuously pointed out whale watching is often cheaper? Maybe would you like to calculate the cost of say, going to SeaWorld from here and say, going to Cardigan Bay to here to see some dolphins from a boat so it becomes a little clearer?
And if education and conservation is the premises of these aquariums, why do they showcase species, bottlenose dolphins and orcas, that are in fact, not globally endangered?
There is a reason why the most common response to 'I am a marine biologist/studying marine biology' is, 'Oh so do you like train dolphins?'
What proof can you offer that people who go to aquariums actually become actively involved in conservation?

I'm not saying keep one and get rid of the other.
Keep the Aquariums and leave them alone in the wild. Poor old whales and dolphins constantly being harassed in the wild, by research scientists... or some old pikey in boat, BBC camera crews, Japanese fishermen, French fishermen... or any fisherman but particularly the former. Shipping lanes..pollution, nuclear waste; it's a nightmare.

Also, if I can reverse the perspective of a moment; we don't put humans in the wild do we.
Excuse me, would you like food all day, a warm bath, a roof over your head and love?
Sorry, but I think that's cruel.. I think humans should run around in the woods and live in caves while whales and dolphins watch em from afar.

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 04:12 PM, said:

I'm not saying keep one and get rid of the other.
Keep the Aquariums and leave them alone in the wild. Poor old whales and dolphins constantly being harassed in the wild, by research scientists... or some old pikey in boat, BBC camera crews, Japanese fishermen, French fishermen... or any fisherman but particularly the former. Shipping lanes..pollution, nuclear waste; it's a nightmare.

Whale watching is regulated as I already stated.
As I also stated previously standing on the shore and watching them is hardly intrusive.
But of course you can choose to ignore that if it makes you feel happier. The marine parks would be proud of you, the natural world is of course to be feared and demonised, let's put them into little shiny boxes, much easier on the eye.
Something that both you and the captive display facilities fail to acknowledge however is that despite the nasty, nasty things out there orcas in the wild still live longer than those in captivity. Strange, isn't it?
REally makes you wonder just how bad the captive situation is if they can cope with all those things in the wild but cannot deal with 'love', free food and health care and all those fun, fun, fun little shows!

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 04:12 PM, said:

Also, if I can reverse the perspective of a moment; we don't put humans in the wild do we.
Excuse me, would you like food all day, a warm bath, a roof over your head and love?
Sorry, but I think that's cruel.. I think humans should run around in the woods and live in caves while whales and dolphins watch em from afar.

We are self-domesticated. Dolphins are not domesticated, despite years of captivity, they are not adapted to a captive environment.
And of course you can ignore the fact (mentioned about a million times by now and supported by the sources you chose to ignore) that dolphins live significantly shorter lives in captivity, are highly susceptible to respiratory disease and show heighetened levels of both intraspecific and interspecific aggression.
All signs of a healthy, happy life I am sure!
But do stick your head in the sand disregarding the evidence, SeaWorld and co will thank you for it when you continue to support their exploits, leaving those 'beautiful and majestic' animals circle their tank with their drooping dorsal fins while they are going blind from the chemicals in the water and entertaining the masses....

[Bill Hill]

Cetacea, on 04 November 2009 - 03:51 PM, said:

Why exactly is whale watching not an option again?
Why is it elitist when it's actually cheaper and a more natural experience?

It's not really natural though is it, they feed the dolphins so they come to the boat, or the dolphins associate the boat with food.
The people on the boat are still treating the experience like an aquarium, 'oh look aren't they sOo cute'
Only it's got more of feel good factor because they can then preach to people about it when they get back. It's the pretentious person's seaworld.

Sorry, if you want to see Great Whites up close and in the wild...then you'll need a massive speed boat, with specialised equipment and a shark cage. It ain't cheap..

http://www.sharkbookings.com/

[Cetacea]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

It's not really natural though is it, they feed the dolphins so they come to the boat, or the dolphins associate the boat with food.
The people on the boat are still treating the experience like an aquarium, 'oh look aren't they sOo cute'
Only it's got more of feel good factor because they can then preach to people about it when they get back. It's the pretentious person's seaworld.

What sort of whale watching boats do you know of?!!!
Feeding cetaceans is illegal in many countries (UK and US for a start) and at the very least discouraged pretty much everywhere else!
That is not how whale watching works, you go out you look for dolphins, you watch them and you leave after a set amount of time to minimise disturbance. They are not manipulated to approach the boat, they might come up for a look or bow ride but they are not attracted artificially.

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

Sorry, if you want to see Great Whites up close and in the wild...then you'll need a massive speed boat, with specialised equipment and a shark cage. It ain't cheap..
http://www.sharkbookings.com/

No, some species are hard to see, this is true.
That does not mean they need to be caught and boxed up in neat little sparkly tanks so we can see them.
Some animals just don't do well in captivity, it's about time we accept that rather than indulging our own arrogance, thinking we have the right to see them.
Zoos and aquariums can be great but we are priviledged to be seeing the animals in them, it's not our right to have any animal we fancy in them, if anything we have a responsibility to make sure the animals that are being kept for our own selfish amusement have a habitat and lifestyle that is as close to natural as possible. In some species that is not possible and should therefore not be attempted.

This post has been edited by Cetacea: 04 November 2009 - 04:56 PM

[Mattshark]

Bill Hill, on 04 November 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

Sorry, if you want to see Great Whites up close and in the wild...then you'll need a massive speed boat, with specialised equipment and a shark cage. It ain't cheap..

Well since they don't survive in captivity as adults anyway tough. You could always try searching in the Bay of Biscay in France or in the Med and Adriatic, Croatia and Malta are two good choices.

This post has been edited by Mattshark: 04 November 2009 - 04:57 PM

[Cetacea]

Mattshark, on 04 November 2009 - 04:57 PM, said:

Well since they don't survive in captivity as adults anyway tough. You could always try searching in the Bay of Biscay in France or in the Med and Adriatic, Croatia and Malta are two good choices.

That's true actually, there is only one aquarium that occasionally has them, Monterrey Bay, and they release them after a few months so you're screwed for that one either way.
As you are so concerned about not being a rich elitist and polluting the planet you may want to consider more local opportunities to see sharks, shark diving of Cornwall, instead of flying half way across the world at the chance to see a Great White in an aquarium.