[puridalan]

False, I know a wide variety of freemasons, in various states, locations and positions. As for secret society most of them are plain as day. Ever heard the phrase hiding in plain site..well same thing applies. They usually have one local building in each city right in plain sight, usually plain white building.

I have met some that are NOT christian, so saying all of them are christian is also false. All of them have different beliefs. Some of them are more charitable than others. Some of them allow more people into the group such as females, while others only allow men. Some of them think the G stands for God, while others will argue it stands for geometer.

SO, even within the freemasons themselves their are many traditions that have become broken down into different ways of doing things. Really, it is just a fraternity, getting away from their wives As for all of this crazy OMG world domination by masons haha...not really. It's more just the law of oligarchy in general...but hey what do I know haha


On a side note I WILL admit, that there are 'unjustified' criminals within the 'frat' though that applies with any building, that has cracks within it's foundations. The one thing that this particular case had to do with was yrs. ago on a document that was being signed, for the wrong reasons, unjustly. Again a few rotten apples out of the bunch. What you should be doing is targeting though individuals and 'knock' them off the boards.

This post has been edited by puridalan: 09 November 2009 - 08:06 PM

[Corp]

Br Cornelius, on 09 November 2009 - 02:44 PM, said:

Your position/opinion is abundantly clear from everything you have said.

You were attempting to ridicule any notion that the Freemasons could be anything other than a gentile bunch of cake bakers. Ridicule is a common tactic on this board and it does nothing to support anyones position, its an avoidance. I am a bit sick of it as a tactic.

Br Cornelius

Sometimes joking around is just joking around. The only people I replied to in a joking manner were those people who were joking themselves. No tactic at all, no attempt to ridicule someone. And sometimes you need to joke around about this stuff because just like there are people on these boards who do nothing but mock anything and everything that is said there are also those who take matters far to seriously and are overly paranoid. Neither is healthy.

In this case you're just seeing something that wasn't there.

[Br Cornelius]

Corp, on 09 November 2009 - 08:34 PM, said:

Sometimes joking around is just joking around. The only people I replied to in a joking manner were those people who were joking themselves. No tactic at all, no attempt to ridicule someone. And sometimes you need to joke around about this stuff because just like there are people on these boards who do nothing but mock anything and everything that is said there are also those who take matters far to seriously and are overly paranoid. Neither is healthy.

In this case you're just seeing something that wasn't there.

OK case closed.

Br Cornelius

[bee]

Br Cornelius, on 09 November 2009 - 07:31 PM, said:

Your analysis is fair and I must say that what I am allowed to know of the principles of the Masons, I have great sympathy with them in many respects. Corruption has always been a part of how governments have functioned, and as such the Masons are simply another player of the game. However their structure is highly organised and creates a gradual process of indoctrination (this is implicit in the initiations and the study work you are expected to perform if you want to get on in the order) - coincidently as you rise in the order you tend to rise in civil society, so by a basic process of osmosis it is inevitable that your public stance will start to reflect the indoctrinated beliefs of the order. This will have an effect on society at large, and I would guess that in the most part the effect will be to the good.
Still the agenda is unknown to the outer world and it is a very specific agenda which is built into the order. In their own terms is is the "Great Work" which is the personal enlightenment of the individual member and the universal Enlightenment of the society at large. This is no abstract window dressing - it is an agenda of societal change to its very core and it is write in the very foundations of the Masonic order. What are we to understand of the "Great Work", who is to say, because the specific details are only revealed as you rise through the grades. So its not a nice quaint old mans club where you chew the fat about this and that, it is an order with a central agenda of radical social and spiritual change.

How are we to take this - I really don't know, but I would certainly wish to know a bit more about the particulars of a plan to transform the world in accordance with the "Great Work" whatever that might mean.

I suggest that anyone interested spend an hour or so searching out as much information as they can about what the "Great Work" might actually mean - I would certainly appreciate any insights.

After reading your post. I have just read this.....'The Great Work in Speculative Freemasonry'

http://www.mt.net/~w.../greatwork.html


I had already thought about what I'm about to say before, but not looked into
the 'Great Work'. It has not changed my mind. In fact it has strengthened
what I have come to think...rightly or wrongly, as the case may be.

I think that those in the highest degrees of Freemasonry have knowledge of
extraterrestrial life and are part of a long tradition of preserving this knowledge.

And the Extraterrestrials that they may be aware of came from the Sirius Star System
and could have been involved with Ancient Egypt. In fact the ET race from the Sirius Star
system may actually BE the Ancient Egyptians, or at least their teachers...


From here...about Robert Temple's book The Sirius Mystery

http://lauralee.com/temple.htm

Quote

Book Description (from the publisher)
Convincing evidence that the Egyptian, Sumerian, and Dogon civilizations were founded by aliens from the Sirius star system who are now ready to return. * Updated with 140 pages of new scientific evidence that solidifies * the hypothesis that the KGB, CIA, and NASA attempted to suppress. * An awe-inspiring work of research that calls for a profound * reappraisal of our role in the universe.

And from here...

http://www.freemason...iusmystery.html

Quote

So it was Charles E. ("Ted") Webber, not an elderly relative, who approached me about The Sirius Mystery. Because I had moved to England, I did not see Ted as an adult until I made a visit to Virginia when I was in my thirties. Apart from my mother, all of my Masonic relatives were dead by then or were cousins whom I never saw. Ted knew that I had no obvious route into Masonry and did was Masons are not supposed to do, actually recruited me. Masons are only supposed to join if they seek to do so, never be persuaded. Although he felt "fraternal loyalty" (to use Masonic terms) towards me, his reason was not sentimental but practical. He said quietly to me: "We are very interested in your book The Sirius Mystery. We realize you have written this without any knowledge of the traditions of Masonry, and you may not be aware of this, but you have made some discoveries which relate to the most central Masonic traditions at a high level, including some things that none of us ever knew. We would very much like to get you to exchange some ideas and research with some of the people in our headquarters. But unfortunately because you are not a Mason we cannot discuss any of these matters with you, as it is forbidden." I asked him what sort of connection there was and he did mention specifically that it was my work on ancient Egypt, on Isis and Osirus, and the ancient traditions of the star Sirius.

Going up the degrees...could be a weeding out process. So that when someone is
ready to understand the true and higher mission...they can enter the higher degrees?

[ReincarnatedNobody]

My grandfather was also a 32nd degree mason and a part of the shriners. As far as I'm told, he was a good man. How many good men are a part of this government? I don't know for sure, but I think it's safe to say there are at least a few and it's safe to assume this applies to the masons as well. The thing that creeps me out about the whole masonic corporation is in what I hear about there philosophy of dualism. Their evil has to be balanced with good, like giving to charities and building hospitals for burn victims. It's just a bit suspicious but a bit silly as well. Friends have described it as an adult version of Dungeons and Dragons. If that's the case, that's more a reason to keep the masons out of government positions than if they actually served Lucifer himself. What kind of precedents would these LARP gamers base their law-making and other governmental decisions on?

This post has been edited by ReincarnatedNobody: 10 November 2009 - 03:11 PM

[Br Cornelius]

bee, on 10 November 2009 - 02:25 PM, said:

After reading your post. I have just read this.....'The Great Work in Speculative Freemasonry'

http://www.mt.net/~w.../greatwork.html


I had already thought about what I'm about to say before, but not looked into
the 'Great Work'. It has not changed my mind. In fact it has strengthened
what I have come to think...rightly or wrongly, as the case may be.

I think that those in the highest degrees of Freemasonry have knowledge of
extraterrestrial life and are part of a long tradition of preserving this knowledge.

And the Extraterrestrials that they may be aware of came from the Sirius Star System
and could have been involved with Ancient Egypt. In fact the ET race from the Sirius Star
system may actually BE the Ancient Egyptians, or at least their teachers...


From here...about Robert Temple's book The Sirius Mystery

http://lauralee.com/temple.htm



And from here...

http://www.freemason...iusmystery.html




Going up the degrees...could be a weeding out process. So that when someone is
ready to understand the true and higher mission...they can enter the higher degrees?

Thanks for that. You cannot read very far into Freemasonary without coming to very similar conclusions. I will follow you links. It is also the central meaning of Alister Crowleys A.A. secret society. Sirius is big, very big, but after a certain point I have always hit a brick wall on interpreting its meaning.

Thanks again.

Br Cornelius

Thanks.

[keithisco]

Br Cornelius, on 10 November 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:

Thanks for that. You cannot read very far into Freemasonary without coming to very similar conclusions. I will follow you links. It is also the central meaning of Alister Crowleys A.A. secret society. Sirius is big, very big, but after a certain point I have always hit a brick wall on interpreting its meaning.

Thanks again.

Br Cornelius

Thanks.

It really is not that difficult, everything is available to researching on the internet. It's ALL there

[bee]

Br Cornelius, on 10 November 2009 - 03:39 PM, said:

Thanks for that. You cannot read very far into Freemasonary without coming to very similar conclusions. I will follow you links. It is also the central meaning of Alister Crowleys A.A. secret society. Sirius is big, very big, but after a certain point I have always hit a brick wall on interpreting its meaning.

Thanks again.

Br Cornelius

Thanks.

You are very welcome....thanks for the feedback.

I could go into some rather 'far out' speculations re. the Freemasons and extraterrestrials
but I'll leave that for another day...and see if there are any more comments on my post, first.

[Malruhn]

Br Cornelius, on 09 November 2009 - 02:07 PM, said:

So you have made statement of opinion without any facts to support them. Just what you are accusing me of, except I have a few more facts to support my position.

Br Cornelius

Brother Cornelius, I have yet to see any "Facts" involved in what you are saying - it is conjecture, which is nothing more than opinion. Yes, we have secrets - which to you makes us suspect. That is an opinion. Have you got any credible cites that can be used that aren't more than more opinion?

And to forestall any jumping at "obviousness"...

1. Yes, Alistair Crowley was indeed a Freemason. He started telling people how he had been installed into the 33rd Degree, which was patently untrue, and the organization banned him. He did not stop telling people that he was a Freemason, and even began showing his "certificate of membership" as proof. The problem was that the signatures on it were forgeries of people that did not have any authority to sign it, and it was missing a required embossed seal. This rumor persists, however.

2. P2 tried to take down the Vatican. The P2 Lodge from Rome had some members that were very highly placed in the Vatican, particularly in the banking arena. After several warnings from the Grand Lodge of Italy for improper acts, the P2 Lodge lost her authority to meet as a Lodge, and all members had their membership stripped. Shortly thereafter, the former Lodge officers were charged with embezzlement and conspiracy charges by Italian authorities. Several members (including the officers in question) charged the Vatican with automatic weapons, forcing the local law enforcement to engage them. Those that weren't killed outright were tried, convicted and all have since died in prison.

3. The Captain Morgan affair. This one has no defense. A Freemason that was running out of money attempted to extort money from his local Lodge or he would print "the secrets of Freemasonry" in his printing press (he was a printer). He was rebuffed, and then kicked out of the Lodge for drunkenness and outstanding debts. When it appeared that he had begun printing copies of the book, his building mysteriously burnt down. Shortly after he loudly announced that copies had been sent to his lawyer's offices, he was arrested for outstanding debts with no bail. After midnight that evening, a group of men bailed him out of jail, put him on a wagon and rode away - never to be seen again. Murder and conspiracy charges were made, a trial was held and all were exonerated. Shortly after this, it was revealed that the Judge, Prosecutor, Defense Attorney, Bailiff, all the witnesses, and the entire jury were all Freemasons. It caused such a hue and cry that the NY state Governor was brought in to the mix. The trial folks all lost their jobs, many of them went to prison, the Lodge lost their Charter, and the only successful Third Political Party in the US was started, the Anti-Masonic Party. I was horrid, and there is no excuse.

Which leaves ONE instance of a conspiracy that was perpetrated by Freemasons.
____________________________

To link the Nazi party and Freemasonry is on the other side of laughable, considering that the Freemasons were targetted for extermination even earlier than the Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals.
____________________________

The "Great Work" of which you speak is told to the lowliest of Entered Apprentices - All Men are Created Equal, and should be treated as such; You are an imperfect being, and need to immerse yourself in education, so that you might find knowledge and understanding; and Remember that there is always a Higher Power (read: God/god/Allah/whatever you call it/him/Him) to which we are answerable, and conduct yourself accordingly. How is this strange or "conspiratorial"??
____________________________

You are using an author (Temple) who wrote a book that was based on nothing more than speculation, and his undocumented and undocumentable claim that it is true as a source?? If I write a book that says that Brother Cornelius is a reptilian, and then add a sentence in there that says that reptilians have told me that it was accurate, does this mean that it is true? Good Lord, man, just how tight IS your tin-foil hat? This is so laughable that it is truly SAD!!

The other claim made by Temple is his alleged unsolicited and unsponsored entry into Freemasonry, which, by out bylaws throughout the Fraternity is totally illegal. You cannot gain entry to the Fraternity without a sponsor, without a proper (documented) investigation, and across jurisdictional boundaries, which is exactly what Temple is claiming. And then, on top of all of this, when research was conducted by the Grand Lodge of Virginia... it was discovered that Temple's name does not appear on ANY Lodge roll of members for that Jurisdiction. So, the "member" that is "spilling Lodge secrets" is actually not even a member.

Gosh, is it any wonder why his accusations are so foundless?

Please, TRY to find some credible sources!!
______________________________

You may be sick of the use of ridicule as a debate tactic, but Freemasons are sick of the use of nothing but opinion and speculation as a debate tactic.

[Br Cornelius]

Malruhn, on 12 November 2009 - 08:38 PM, said:

Brother Cornelius, I have yet to see any "Facts" involved in what you are saying - it is conjecture, which is nothing more than opinion. Yes, we have secrets - which to you makes us suspect. That is an opinion. Have you got any credible cites that can be used that aren't more than more opinion?

And to forestall any jumping at "obviousness"...

1. Yes, Alistair Crowley was indeed a Freemason. He started telling people how he had been installed into the 33rd Degree, which was patently untrue, and the organization banned him. He did not stop telling people that he was a Freemason, and even began showing his "certificate of membership" as proof. The problem was that the signatures on it were forgeries of people that did not have any authority to sign it, and it was missing a required embossed seal. This rumor persists, however.

2. P2 tried to take down the Vatican. The P2 Lodge from Rome had some members that were very highly placed in the Vatican, particularly in the banking arena. After several warnings from the Grand Lodge of Italy for improper acts, the P2 Lodge lost her authority to meet as a Lodge, and all members had their membership stripped. Shortly thereafter, the former Lodge officers were charged with embezzlement and conspiracy charges by Italian authorities. Several members (including the officers in question) charged the Vatican with automatic weapons, forcing the local law enforcement to engage them. Those that weren't killed outright were tried, convicted and all have since died in prison.

3. The Captain Morgan affair. This one has no defense. A Freemason that was running out of money attempted to extort money from his local Lodge or he would print "the secrets of Freemasonry" in his printing press (he was a printer). He was rebuffed, and then kicked out of the Lodge for drunkenness and outstanding debts. When it appeared that he had begun printing copies of the book, his building mysteriously burnt down. Shortly after he loudly announced that copies had been sent to his lawyer's offices, he was arrested for outstanding debts with no bail. After midnight that evening, a group of men bailed him out of jail, put him on a wagon and rode away - never to be seen again. Murder and conspiracy charges were made, a trial was held and all were exonerated. Shortly after this, it was revealed that the Judge, Prosecutor, Defense Attorney, Bailiff, all the witnesses, and the entire jury were all Freemasons. It caused such a hue and cry that the NY state Governor was brought in to the mix. The trial folks all lost their jobs, many of them went to prison, the Lodge lost their Charter, and the only successful Third Political Party in the US was started, the Anti-Masonic Party. I was horrid, and there is no excuse.

Which leaves ONE instance of a conspiracy that was perpetrated by Freemasons.
____________________________

To link the Nazi party and Freemasonry is on the other side of laughable, considering that the Freemasons were targetted for extermination even earlier than the Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals.
____________________________

The "Great Work" of which you speak is told to the lowliest of Entered Apprentices - All Men are Created Equal, and should be treated as such; You are an imperfect being, and need to immerse yourself in education, so that you might find knowledge and understanding; and Remember that there is always a Higher Power (read: God/god/Allah/whatever you call it/him/Him) to which we are answerable, and conduct yourself accordingly. How is this strange or "conspiratorial"??
____________________________

You are using an author (Temple) who wrote a book that was based on nothing more than speculation, and his undocumented and undocumentable claim that it is true as a source?? If I write a book that says that Brother Cornelius is a reptilian, and then add a sentence in there that says that reptilians have told me that it was accurate, does this mean that it is true? Good Lord, man, just how tight IS your tin-foil hat? This is so laughable that it is truly SAD!!

The other claim made by Temple is his alleged unsolicited and unsponsored entry into Freemasonry, which, by out bylaws throughout the Fraternity is totally illegal. You cannot gain entry to the Fraternity without a sponsor, without a proper (documented) investigation, and across jurisdictional boundaries, which is exactly what Temple is claiming. And then, on top of all of this, when research was conducted by the Grand Lodge of Virginia... it was discovered that Temple's name does not appear on ANY Lodge roll of members for that Jurisdiction. So, the "member" that is "spilling Lodge secrets" is actually not even a member.

Gosh, is it any wonder why his accusations are so foundless?

Please, TRY to find some credible sources!!
______________________________

You may be sick of the use of ridicule as a debate tactic, but Freemasons are sick of the use of nothing but opinion and speculation as a debate tactic.

I never said that Crowley was a Freemason, though he obviously was - I said his was an organisation which was directly modelled on the Masonic organisation. His organisation was/is the O.T.O.

The star Sirius is a central theme within Masonic symbolism. I have said that i have found it difficult to find out what this might mean in the wider context of Freemasonary. I found what Temple has said interesting but have never read his book and have made no comment on what he has said. I would like to know more.

I know the Great Work is the central purpose of Freemasonary, and as the article linked to by Bee points out, it is a work of personal spiritual alchemy. It is also an ambition to create the same spiritual transformation in society. Spiritual alchemy and ties to Rosicrucianism make it based soundly on Occult foundations - which I personally have absolutely no issue with.

Freemasons have been widely associated with corruption. It nearly ruined the London Metrapolitan police force in the 70's. This does not make Freemasonary corrupt, just some members and some lodges.

Any organisation which attracts policy makers and is secretive by nature invites accusations of corruption. If the Freemasons don't like it then don't act in secret - its that simple - and its entirely the Freemasons fault.

Do not try to misrepresent what I have said, I have stated commonly accepted facts and my opinion of them. I am not unsympathetic to Freemasonary but unfortunately I very suspicious of it, and that is my right.

Masonary has a bad press, ask yourself why and don't blame it on me.

Br Cornelius

This post has been edited by Br Cornelius: 12 November 2009 - 09:49 PM

[puridalan]

Wait can I now say I got abducted by aliens..or maybe I'll just say free masons hahaha