[Hanslune]

Quote

I was thinking about asking him the same, but it's of no use.

He can't provide any evidence, it's just his belief, and he will fabricate another excuse for not bringing up any proof.

It happens all the time here, it's people with active braincells battling people with convictions based on nothing but a fancy fantasy.

I suspected the same when Harte made his comment. I know now to ignore him in the future....but hey sometimes it fun to ask people to provide evidence they know they can't provide.

[Swede]

sepulchrave, on 04 November 2009 - 09:02 PM, said:

Why is there no evidence of ancient aliens? To answer this question we must apply Occam's razor¹, and a lot of footnotes.

Although our technology is far from being as advanced as that of our ancient visitors², we are approaching the threshold. In almost every field our major advancements in technology have either been or been associated with advances in computing. However we are rapidly reaching the limit of what doped-silicon based technology can achieve, and current progress into semiconductor and metallic alternatives (spintronics, photonics, etc.) are going nowhere³.

The way forward, of course, is with quantum computing. And how will quantum computing be achieved? It is already well known that the human brain possess a high degree of quantum entanglement⁴. This is not enough for an ultra-high-tech society⁵, of course, but massively parallel arrays of organic neurons coupled to Bose-Einstein condensates⁶ cooled to lHe temperatures might just do the trick. Of course once the aliens left, the lHe boiled away and the organic components quickly rotted - leaving no trace.

Ok so we've got their computing part out of the way. Now how did they get here? Obviously space is really big, and the idea of just flying through it is laughable⁷. The answer: the ancient aliens traveled around via wormholes. If you can manipulate the web of space-time to create a tunnel to take you somewhere else, why bother doing it from space⁸? You can just create a wormhole from the surface of your planet to the surface of the planet you want to visit⁹.

Now how do they know where to go? Well, back at home they had tachyon sensors. It is well known that the presence of mass and energy warps the fabric of space-time, and therefore modifies the trajectory of superluminal tachyons¹⁰. The tachyon sensor arrays allowed the ancient aliens to probe thousands of planets from the comfort of their own home!

Now the first worm-holes to earth were no doubt a bit of tricky business. But once the aliens established regular contact with our ancestors they required something to "lock on" to. And what better way of modifying the space-time continuum in a distinct manner than placing large, massive objects with unnatural flat surfaces and right angled corners ¹¹?

Truly we are but hapless Aegeans caught in a labyrinthine game of intrigue and mystery. Secrets and lies! Secrets and lies!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. In this post it seems it has been a long time since Mr. Occam sharpened his razor.
2. Even though they are no longer around to defend themselves, most people are STILL convinced they didn't exist. I mean, how high tech is that! Straight outta Douglas Adams, I'm telling you.
3. Well, at least not getting there fast enough. I want my photonic computer already!
4. Sorry, Mattshark - I couldn't resist. At least you can switch from defeating the arguments of anti-evolutionists to defeating the arguments of pro-brain-entanglement-ists.
5. No snide remarks about my brain in particular, please.
6. Any Robert Charles Wilson fans in the house?
7. Well I guess NASA doesn't find it laughable, but it's been years since they've been to the moon.
8. Other than the risk of extreme gravitational gradients nerfing the place you are trying to go to.
9. And hope the planet has an atmosphere at the same pressure as yours!
10. Of course there are many good arguments why tachyons shouldn't exist, but if you are aware of them you've probably stopped reading before this point.
11. Actually I can think of several better ways of modifying the space-time continuum, but none that bring pyramids into the discussion. And without pyramids, well, it just isn't a conspiracy.

Simply brilliant! I can only hope that certain others may grasp the poignancy!

This post has been edited by Swede: 05 November 2009 - 03:46 AM

[sage0409]

I think the fact that my own ancestors are one of those this theory affects makes me mad. Why is it so difficult to think that maybe just maybe these ancient civilizations were in fact that advanced and intelligent? Do we need to say little green men or whatever aliens from another world look like, gave them their technology? Nah, I disagree just for the indignation of it all

[Erowin]

Hi.

I'm quite intrested in this ancient astronaut theory after I watched a show on it on History Channel. They showed some of the most compelling points about this theory. I was wondering if some of you have answers for some of the proofs they gave, as History is quite one-sided!

One was a carving on a Mayan tomb. It showed a man sitting in an odd position, looking like he was going to go into the air. The things around him looked like a spaceship. Its supposed to be famous, I'll link to it later.

Another was these South American ruins at this one site, where holes are carved so precise it looks like they would need to have used modern tools and things they didn;t have. The stones were also ridiculously huge, but stood up.

Sorry I can't provide names, I dont remember and am too tired to research right now. They were intresting points, and I haven't been able to come up with answers to them yet. Though I find the fact that aliens visted us long ago hard to believe.

[Ikki]

Erowin, on 05 November 2009 - 04:34 AM, said:

Hi.

I'm quite intrested in this ancient astronaut theory after I watched a show on it on History Channel. They showed some of the most compelling points about this theory. I was wondering if some of you have answers for some of the proofs they gave, as History is quite one-sided!

One was a carving on a Mayan tomb. It showed a man sitting in an odd position, looking like he was going to go into the air. The things around him looked like a spaceship. Its supposed to be famous, I'll link to it later.

Another was these South American ruins at this one site, where holes are carved so precise it looks like they would need to have used modern tools and things they didn;t have. The stones were also ridiculously huge, but stood up.

Sorry I can't provide names, I dont remember and am too tired to research right now. They were intresting points, and I haven't been able to come up with answers to them yet. Though I find the fact that aliens visted us long ago hard to believe.

Hola,

The tomb is indeed famous -- you're referring to the tomb lid of Kinich Janaab Pakal; the 'vehicle' is commonly interpreted as the world tree, a common mythological concept among the Maya, connecting the underworld, the Earth, and the sky -- here symbolizing the dead king's descent to the underworld. See here for better detail.

The ruins sound a bitlike those of Pumapunku, on which I'm quite frankly not an expert, so I suggest you check out the (slightly looney) thread about it right her ein this forum.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the use of the word 'history' in that particular channel's name is word abuse.

This post has been edited by Ikki: 05 November 2009 - 04:46 AM

[TheSearcher]

sepulchrave, on 05 November 2009 - 04:02 AM, said:

Why is there no evidence of ancient aliens? To answer this question we must apply Occam's razor¹, and a lot of footnotes.

Although our technology is far from being as advanced as that of our ancient visitors², we are approaching the threshold. In almost every field our major advancements in technology have either been or been associated with advances in computing. However we are rapidly reaching the limit of what doped-silicon based technology can achieve, and current progress into semiconductor and metallic alternatives (spintronics, photonics, etc.) are going nowhere³.

The way forward, of course, is with quantum computing. And how will quantum computing be achieved? It is already well known that the human brain possess a high degree of quantum entanglement⁴. This is not enough for an ultra-high-tech society⁵, of course, but massively parallel arrays of organic neurons coupled to Bose-Einstein condensates⁶ cooled to lHe temperatures might just do the trick. Of course once the aliens left, the lHe boiled away and the organic components quickly rotted - leaving no trace.

Ok so we've got their computing part out of the way. Now how did they get here? Obviously space is really big, and the idea of just flying through it is laughable⁷. The answer: the ancient aliens traveled around via wormholes. If you can manipulate the web of space-time to create a tunnel to take you somewhere else, why bother doing it from space⁸? You can just create a wormhole from the surface of your planet to the surface of the planet you want to visit⁹.

Now how do they know where to go? Well, back at home they had tachyon sensors. It is well known that the presence of mass and energy warps the fabric of space-time, and therefore modifies the trajectory of superluminal tachyons¹⁰. The tachyon sensor arrays allowed the ancient aliens to probe thousands of planets from the comfort of their own home!

Now the first worm-holes to earth were no doubt a bit of tricky business. But once the aliens established regular contact with our ancestors they required something to "lock on" to. And what better way of modifying the space-time continuum in a distinct manner than placing large, massive objects with unnatural flat surfaces and right angled corners ¹¹?

Truly we are but hapless Aegeans caught in a labyrinthine game of intrigue and mystery. Secrets and lies! Secrets and lies!

Lets establish a few things here, you seem to have not a clear idea that everything in computer science is interlinked and related in some way. For example :

Photonics also relates to the emerging science of quantum information in those cases where it employs photonic methods. Included are all areas from everyday life to the most advanced science, e.g. light detection, telecommunications, information processing, lighting, metrology, spectroscopy, holography, medicine (surgery, vision correction, endoscopy, health monitoring), military technology, laser material processing, visual art, biophotonics, agriculture, and robotics.

The storage density of hard drives is rapidly increasing along an exponential growth curve, in part because spintronics-enabled devices like GMR and TMR sensors have increased the sensitivity of the read head which measures the magnetic state of small magnetic domains (bits) on the spinning platter.

How is that "going nowhere"?

As to Quantum computers you understand the theory well enough, from what I can tell, but your theory of the actual machine is actually wrong I think.
For example, there is DNA computing, which is a form of computing which uses DNA, biochemistry and molecular biology, instead of the traditional silicon-based computer technologies. DNA computing, or, more generally, molecular computing, is an actual reality, if still in infancy. The first DNA computer developped is MAYA-II (Meaning Molecular Array of YES and ANDNOT logic gates), based on DNA Stem Loop Controllers, developed by scientists at Columbia University and the University of New Mexico.

There is the Trapped ion quantum computer, which is a type of quantum computer, where Ions, or charged atomic particles, can be confined and suspended in free space using electromagnetic fields. Qubits are stored in stable electronic states of each ion, and quantum information can be processed and transferred through the collective quantized motion of the ions in the trap. Lasers are applied to induce coupling between the qubit states (for single qubit operations) or coupling between the internal qubit states and the external motional states (for entanglement between qubits). This kind of computer is being experimented with in university's all over the world.

You see, no need for massively parallel arrays of organic neurons coupled to Bose-Einstein condensaters cooled to lHe temperatures. Given a few years we are perfectly capable of doing it on a much smaller scale than you propose.

Tachyons as far as I know are still a hypothetical subatomic particle that travels faster than the speed of light. Main word being hypothetical, suspected but not proven, no experimental evidence for or against the existence of tachyon particles has been found.

In physics, a wormhole is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that is fundamentally a 'shortcut' through space and time. Again, hypothetical.

sage0409, on 05 November 2009 - 05:03 AM, said:

I think the fact that my own ancestors are one of those this theory affects makes me mad. Why is it so difficult to think that maybe just maybe these ancient civilizations were in fact that advanced and intelligent? Do we need to say little green men or whatever aliens from another world look like, gave them their technology? Nah, I disagree just for the indignation of it all

I can agree whole heartedly with that. Saying lil green men did it is just not giving our ancestors enough credit.

[Emma_Acid]

Erowin, on 05 November 2009 - 04:34 AM, said:

Hi.

I'm quite intrested in this ancient astronaut theory after I watched a show on it on History Channel. They showed some of the most compelling points about this theory. I was wondering if some of you have answers for some of the proofs they gave, as History is quite one-sided!

One was a carving on a Mayan tomb. It showed a man sitting in an odd position, looking like he was going to go into the air. The things around him looked like a spaceship. Its supposed to be famous, I'll link to it later.

Another was these South American ruins at this one site, where holes are carved so precise it looks like they would need to have used modern tools and things they didn;t have. The stones were also ridiculously huge, but stood up.

Sorry I can't provide names, I dont remember and am too tired to research right now. They were intresting points, and I haven't been able to come up with answers to them yet. Though I find the fact that aliens visted us long ago hard to believe.

Is that the sum total of their evidence? A carving of a man "going up into the air" and an argument from ignorance?

[lil gremlin]

most entertaining post sepulcrave, cheers

This post has been edited by lil gremlin: 05 November 2009 - 10:30 AM

[TheSearcher]

Emma_Acid, on 05 November 2009 - 11:21 AM, said:

Is that the sum total of their evidence? A carving of a man "going up into the air" and an argument from ignorance?

The carving of the man in the particular position "going up", would that not be the same as Von Däniken uses in one of his books? I think it was a tombstone, if memory serves.

[Emma_Acid]

TheSearcher, on 05 November 2009 - 10:37 AM, said:

The carving of the man in the particular position "going up", would that not be the same as Von Däniken uses in one of his books? I think it was a tombstone, if memory serves.

Yep, a king ascending to heaven I think. The whole "it looks like a modern spaceship" thing simply doesn't wash. Any mythological story, character or image could be translated as UFO/alien-esque with a modern viewpoint. I'm surprised we haven't yet had a thread about King Minos keeping a mutant bull-alien in his basement.

[innerverse]

Emma_Acid, on 05 November 2009 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yep, a king ascending to heaven I think. The whole "it looks like a modern spaceship" thing simply doesn't wash. Any mythological story, character or image could be translated as UFO/alien-esque with a modern viewpoint. I'm surprised we haven't yet had a thread about King Minos keeping a mutant bull-alien in his basement.

And every modern ufo/alien-esque story could be translated as a god reaching the heavens with thunder and lightning from an ancient/primitive point of view...right? And you have to wonder, why do we not write mythology in our current times? Because we tend to explain our current unexplained phenomena with scientific methodology. Of course, applying this theory to every documented ancient myth is probably retarded. I give credit to both viewpoints and that's why we need facts.
I also have the sense that we have barely scratched the surface of human ancient civilizations, from the point where man himself could have advanced in different areas that we are unaware of.
To be completely honest here, one of the major factors that made me consider this whole ancient cosmonaut theory in the first place, was the fact (and it is indeed a FACT) that many of these civilizations, have made amazing advancements in astronomy (considering our solar system and beyond) for their time (planetary circles, different moon cycles, motions of the earth - including precession witch lasts 26000 years) and also the fact that they based their religion around it.

[Emma_Acid]

innerverse, on 05 November 2009 - 11:59 AM, said:

And every modern ufo/alien-esque story could be translated as a god reaching the heavens with thunder and lightning from an ancient/primitive point of view...right? And you have to wonder, why do we not write mythology in our current times? Because we tend to explain our current unexplained phenomena with scientific methodology.

I'm not entirely sure what this paragraph is getting at. We explain everything with science, because all science is is the application of observation and evidence to the world around us.

To say we should explain the world around us but not use scientific method is beyond backward. Its positively medieval. No, scientific observation does not agree with the idea that there were ancient astronauts - but here you should throw out the idea of ancient astronauts, not the use of scientific method simply because it doesn't agree with the way you want the world to be.

innerverse, on 05 November 2009 - 11:59 AM, said:

I give credit to both viewpoints and that's why we need facts.

We have the facts. We know what a carving of a king ascending to heaven is of. There is nothing, literally nothing, in the ancient world (or the biological world for that matter) that involve something like alien intervention.

innerverse, on 05 November 2009 - 11:59 AM, said:

I also have the sense that we have barely scratched the surface of human ancient civilizations, from the point where man himself could have advanced in different areas that we are unaware of.

Pure conjecture. There is no evidence, anywhere, to suggest we have our knowledge of ancient civilisations wrong, or that there are areas that we have no knowledge of (for example, we will never discover that the aztecs drove cars).

innerverse, on 05 November 2009 - 11:59 AM, said:

To be completely honest here, one of the major factors that made me consider this whole ancient cosmonaut theory in the first place, was the fact (and it is indeed a FACT) that many of these civilizations, have made amazing advancements in astronomy (considering our solar system and beyond) for their time (planetary circles, different moon cycles, motions of the earth - including precession witch lasts 26000 years) and also the fact that they based their religion around it.

Again, this is an Argument From Ignorance. They were not "amazingly advanced for their time". They were perfectly advanced for their time - just occasionally we can be taken by surprise by just how much they knew - but this is where the ignorance part comes in. Just because we don't understand how they did something, doesn't mean it wasn't well within their means.

Ancient civilisations had studied the stars for millennia. The sky guided their lives and their society. Damn right they're going to know a lot about it.

But this "advanced in other areas" is rubbish. Almost every ancient civilisation fell due to bad environmental and social management. It simply doesn't make a jot of sense for a civilisation to be in contact with an alien race and know about space ships, and yet not know the first thing about over-forestation.

[The Spartan]

I still remember that in my teens i used to devour all fringe theories..and partcularly after reading von daniken's "chariot of the gods" i even went to the extent of writing a essay in the school magazine on ooparts and daniken's so called "findings"..

but when i look back...sheesh ..how naive had i been!!
when i got older and wiser..i began to question all those fringe stuff i was keen on and found my self loosing interest.

[Emma_Acid]

The Spartan, on 05 November 2009 - 12:26 PM, said:

I still remember that in my teens i used to devour all fringe theories..and partcularly after reading von daniken's "chariot of the gods" i even went to the extent of writing a essay in the school magazine on ooparts and daniken's so called "findings"..

but when i look back...sheesh ..how naive had i been!!
when i got older and wiser..i began to question all those fringe stuff i was keen on and found my self loosing interest.

Me too. My grandpa was the guy who got me into science and was an avid A C Clarke fan, but also had a sideline in Von Daniken etc, which I devoured from the age of about 7. I had shelves of books about mysteries, especially aliens, chariots of the gods style.

Then about 10 years ago I realised there wasn't a shred of evidence for any of it, and actually the reality was far more interesting.

[questionmark]

Emma_Acid, on 05 November 2009 - 02:38 PM, said:

Me too. My grandpa was the guy who got me into science and was an avid A C Clarke fan, but also had a sideline in Von Daniken etc, which I devoured from the age of about 7. I had shelves of books about mysteries, especially aliens, chariots of the gods style.

Then about 10 years ago I realised there wasn't a shred of evidence for any of it, and actually the reality was far more interesting.

In my late teens they got me with the Fortean phenomena until one day one of our club members reported something strange: white blobs all over town. Naturally we went out to collect them off the sidewalks, and I have to say it was hard work 'cause the stuff really stuck.

Then proudly we took our find to the lab in school and started analyzing. It was chewing gum spewed out all over the place that had lost its dust patina because it was raining that day.

Since then I first look for a "normal" explanation (versus paranormal), which generally exists.