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#76    Kazahel

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 04:50 AM

Quote

I am not debating the origin of the legends of werewolves, but rather your ridiculous claim that what you dream is real. Once again, you did not shapeshift, you dreamed of shapeshifting, and the fact that you cannot distinguish between the two tell me allot.
omg. Are you just trolling me or something? I did not claim that my dream was 'real' as you are still making out, I have been quite clear all long. And dream shifting IS shapeshifting thats why it comes under the DEFINITION of it, which you are still choosing to ignore.

Quote

.
So now you are trying to tell me that people who have dreamed of flying can actually now claim that they can fly?? Hell, what do we need pilots for then?? Everyone should have enough miles to qualify to fly themselves!!

Again... I'm trying to tell you thats where I believe the stories of 'naked flying witches' have come from, similar to werewolves and vampires.

Quote

Yes, but it is not the commonly accepted definition, just the definition created by people who live under the same delusions as yourself.

Well it seems that more people understand shapeshifting as an astral thing considering what I've found. And you can claim otherwise but in the end its delusional to think something is impossible when really it isnt. Shapeshifting is possible.. you just have to do it where it is possible.  :tu:


#77    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 03:11 PM

 Kazahel, on 21 December 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

omg. Are you just trolling me or something? I did not claim that my dream was 'real' as you are still making out, I have been quite clear all long. And dream shifting IS shapeshifting thats why it comes under the DEFINITION of it, which you are still choosing to ignore.



Again... I'm trying to tell you thats where I believe the stories of 'naked flying witches' have come from, similar to werewolves and vampires.



Well it seems that more people understand shapeshifting as an astral thing considering what I've found. And you can claim otherwise but in the end its delusional to think something is impossible when really it isnt. Shapeshifting is possible.. you just have to do it where it is possible.  :tu:
Then feel free to continue doing things in your head and claiming that it is real.  
By the way, last night I dreamed I was elected pope, so from now on, I would appreciate being referred to as Your Holiness.  After all, since it happened in a dream, according you to, I can claim it is true.

Edited by 667-Neighbor of the Beast, 21 December 2009 - 03:13 PM.

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#78    digitalartist

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 09:46 PM

 Kazahel, on 21 December 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

omg. Are you just trolling me or something? I did not claim that my dream was 'real' as you are still making out, I have been quite clear all long. And dream shifting IS shapeshifting thats why it comes under the DEFINITION of it, which you are still choosing to ignore.



Again... I'm trying to tell you thats where I believe the stories of 'naked flying witches' have come from, similar to werewolves and vampires.



Well it seems that more people understand shapeshifting as an astral thing considering what I've found. And you can claim otherwise but in the end its delusional to think something is impossible when really it isnt. Shapeshifting is possible.. you just have to do it where it is possible.  :tu:

In the link you provided it says that shape shifting can be done on the astral plane and that I believe is where the problem lies.  Though supposedly in a dream like state, dreaming is not indicative of astrally travelling.  Lucid dreaming is the ability to control the imagery of the dream and also does not indicate that you are on the astral plane.  Using lucid dreaming to control the dream and make your form change does not mean your form changed on the astral plane.  The biggest problem is almost all who dream and believe that they were on the astral plane were only just dreaming.  As someone else pointed out, dreams seem very real and can deceive the dreamer into thinking they are real.  So, even though you believe you shape shifted on the astral plane, there is most likely a 99% chance that it was only in a dream and not in reality.

Also while I am sure people dreamed of things like witches, most that were accused were not done so because of dreams but because, for example, the "witches" crops did better than the next farms and so they must have used magic.  It was fear of the unknown and a healthy dose of ignorance that started the tales, not people dreaming of them or their possible reality on the astral plane.


#79    Kazahel

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 12:27 AM

 digitalartist, on 21 December 2009 - 09:46 PM, said:

In the link you provided it says that shape shifting can be done on the astral plane and that I believe is where the problem lies.  Though supposedly in a dream like state, dreaming is not indicative of astrally travelling.  Lucid dreaming is the ability to control the imagery of the dream and also does not indicate that you are on the astral plane.  Using lucid dreaming to control the dream and make your form change does not mean your form changed on the astral plane.  The biggest problem is almost all who dream and believe that they were on the astral plane were only just dreaming.  As someone else pointed out, dreams seem very real and can deceive the dreamer into thinking they are real.  So, even though you believe you shape shifted on the astral plane, there is most likely a 99% chance that it was only in a dream and not in reality.

From my experience I believe we can astral travel through dreaming.  I had a 'dream' I call Christmas Stocking which shows why I believe this as well..

 Kazahel, on 08 July 2007 - 02:42 AM, said:

Sorry if I miss understood.. I thought you guys were basicially talking about how all AP's would be just coming from your own subconscious, like a lucid dream/your own imagination. So when you said.. " My conclussions are: It's Lucid Dreaming and/or Imagination at work. Nothing more ".. then I wondered where do shared dreams fit into that. Because they are lucid dreams too... its just that they are shared.. so to share a lucid dream would mean you were sharing consciousness and not just stuck in your own subconscious, yeah? Which means apart of it must be more that just imagination at work. I just read some of the way your post was written to be as if saying lucid dreams are only really imagination, and only coming from the dreamers subconscious. Which I dont think is always the case because of shared dreaming and precog dreams.  

" I think that is what is feared the most - that people will find that it is indeed nothing more than - Lucid Dreams and/or Imagination at work. If that is what some fear - then the fear should tell you a lot!! "

See when I read this what you typed above, I take it as if your saying lucid dreams are not very valid experiences.. But to me they are very close to an AP anyway. So I guess what I'm kinda saying is when I have a precog dream or a shared lucid dream, is that.. nothing more than imagination at work?  

I remembered another time I had what almost felt like an AP(semi lucid.. brugmansia based to be honest..).. it was on christmas eve I think.. And I dreamt I was at a christmas party with my girlfriends(at the time)family, all standing around drinking port(toasting) to the arrival of the new baby girl who was inside a red christmas stocking and hanging off the mantle in front of the fire place. I could only see the top of her head but I knew she was a girl and it was like I was just watching everyone over their shoulders. And all they did was toast the arrival of the new baby and celebrate.

Anyway the next morning I woke up and found a sms message on my phone saying how the night before my girlfriends sister had announced to her whole family(for the first time.. she had kept it secret till then).. at the christmas party, that she was pregnant.  She sent this sms to me as if to say.. "what a surprise huh"... and so I told her she was a girl and she ended up being. I know thats a 50/50 guess.. but it wasnt. And I didnt know her sister at all because she lived on the other side of the country and flew over for christmas. So anyway... that lucid dream or AP or whatever it was, felt like I was there in the physical world(on some level).. because of what I knew and the timing. I wasnt sociable enough to want to go out so I stayed home and sipped tea. lol, but I felt like I was there anyway, and knew more than them.. hehe

Found here.

digitalartist said:

Also while I am sure people dreamed of things like witches, most that were accused were not done so because of dreams but because, for example, the "witches" crops did better than the next farms and so they must have used magic.  It was fear of the unknown and a healthy dose of ignorance that started the tales, not people dreaming of them or their possible reality on the astral plane.

Where do you think the stories of flying witches and their oils came from? I personally believe that 'flying witch' means someone who is astral travelling. So I think people would call others 'witch' in the old days if they told anyone about their astral travelling. So I'm not saying they called them witch because someone else dreamt about them.. I'm saying they(others) called them witch because of what the dreamer said they had done in their dream. Same for werewolf.. I recon in the old days if anyone said they had shifted into a wolf in their sleep they wouldve been called something similar to a werewolf because they wouldve been looking for a way to explain it. imo anwyay.  :)


#80    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 04:03 PM

 Kazahel, on 22 December 2009 - 12:27 AM, said:

From my experience I believe we can astral travel through dreaming.  
And herein lies the problem.  Just because you believe it, does not make it fact, and that others have to agree with you.  Like I said, you seem to be redefining things to suit your beliefs, and that is just not the way to make a case.

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#81    Kazahel

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 02:35 AM

 667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 22 December 2009 - 04:03 PM, said:

And herein lies the problem.  Just because you believe it, does not make it fact, and that others have to agree with you.  Like I said, you seem to be redefining things to suit your beliefs, and that is just not the way to make a case.

So are you saying astral travelling is a fact? And that you agree that people can shapeshift in the astral?

And same could be said in regards to astral as well... just because someone says astral is nothing to do with dreaming doesnt make that a fact either. Well I dont think it does, does it? Here is a quick quote I just found when typing in 'astral dreaming'...

Quote

Astral projection is a form of out of body experience that sometimes occurs during lucid dreaming during deep meditation or at times of crisis. The soul moves into an astral body (or "etheric double"), which moves free of the physical body in a parallel world known as the astral plane
Which I quickly found here.

So when I say from my experience I think we can astral travel through dreaming, it seems I'm not the only one.  ;)

And you claimed I was redefining the word 'shapeshift'... when I only grabbed other peoples definitions of that word. And like I said, from what I found more think its an astral thing(a dreaming thing..) than only a psychical thing. So I didnt redefine the word shapeshift, I used other peoples definitions of it, which you choose to ignore.

Edited by Kazahel, 23 December 2009 - 02:42 AM.


#82    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 02:46 PM

 Kazahel, on 23 December 2009 - 02:35 AM, said:

So are you saying astral travelling is a fact? And that you agree that people can shapeshift in the astral?

And same could be said in regards to astral as well... just because someone says astral is nothing to do with dreaming doesnt make that a fact either. Well I dont think it does, does it? Here is a quick quote I just found when typing in 'astral dreaming'...

Which I quickly found here.

So when I say from my experience I think we can astral travel through dreaming, it seems I'm not the only one.  ;)

And you claimed I was redefining the word 'shapeshift'... when I only grabbed other peoples definitions of that word. And like I said, from what I found more think its an astral thing(a dreaming thing..) than only a psychical thing. So I didnt redefine the word shapeshift, I used other peoples definitions of it, which you choose to ignore.
No, read again.  I did not say that astral traveling is a fact, I said that just because you believe that dreaming is linked to astral traveling does not make it a fact, as you seem to insist.  
And I did not ignore that you used other peoples definitions, just pointing out that they are wrong.  You cannot claim to have actually done something just because you dreamed about it.  It is not reality, you did not do it, therefore, cannot claim you did it.  
Like I said before, I dreamed the other night that I was elected pope, so you should respect that and refer to me as Your Holiness, because according to you, I can claim that whatever I dream about has actually happened. So, unless you can prove otherwise, or admit that you are wrong, according to you, I am now the pope.

There is justice in the world.

#83    para-david

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 04:14 PM

 Eyesees, on 11 November 2009 - 02:54 AM, said:

I've met a lot of fake witches and pretend that they can really do such wicca stuff yet I asked them if they can transform into vampires or in any form of creature even an ant! Since they have their magics inside.




so if they have magic in them you believe that they are shapeshifters !?????????? come oooon don't be that easy


#84    Kazahel

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 04:20 PM

 667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 23 December 2009 - 02:46 PM, said:

No, read again.  I did not say that astral traveling is a fact, I said that just because you believe that dreaming is linked to astral traveling does not make it a fact, as you seem to insist.

I was asking if you believe in astral travelling because it seemed you were almost defending about astral travelling and dreaming. So I was wondering if you believe in astral travelling?
  

667 said:

And I did not ignore that you used other peoples definitions, just pointing out that they are wrong.

Well it does seem you choose to ignore those other definitions which are not wrong as you claim. Tell me why they are wrong. Because the definitions I provided were more correct than yours and more detailed.

667 said:

  You cannot claim to have actually done something just because you dreamed about it.  It is not reality, you did not do it, therefore, cannot claim you did it.

I claim to shapeshift in lucid/dreams.. and sometimes I think those dreams are astral travelling. And since the definitions of shapeshifting are..

Quote

The magical ability to assume the forms of animals or other human beings with the soul while it is astrally projected from the body. Occasionally these altered shapes are seen by other people, who mistake them for bodies of flesh.

Quote

very esoteric practice involving changing the human form. This can be practiced while on the astral plane, this alone is a great accomplishment. It is said that one can also shapeshift on the physical plane, though documented proof of this is nonexistent. Few books are published on the subject as it is an art mainly for certain people, and teachers prefer to find these people and teach them their art secretively rather than let the public know their ways.

And that we know astral travelling can be done through dreaming.. then it all speaks for itself.  :tu:



Quote

because according to you, I can claim that whatever I dream about has actually happened. So, unless you can prove otherwise, or admit that you are wrong, according to you, I am now the pope.

Actually that is according to you, again you seem to read what you want to see. Show me where I said that "whatever I dream about has actually happened"? Go back and quote me since you claim I've said it(once again..). Show me where you are getting that from or are you going to show me those shapeshifting quotes again. Where I claimed to of shapeshifted. Well... according to the definitions(the ones above which you keep ignoring)and by knowing that people can astral travel through dreaming.. I think I can safely say that I shapeshifted.  I never claimed to of shapeshifted in the real time.. I only said I did in dreamtime.. and that thats where I think the stories of werewolves might of come about. Pretty simple really and I'm not sure why you are turning this into such a drama.

Anyway show me where I said "whatever I dream about has actually happened"?   Because all you are doing is making up stuff and trying to say its according to me(youve been doing this for ages now and Im having to  post to just correct your lies about me).  The only thing you can claim I have said is that I have shapeshifted and because to you(going by your definition)shapeshifting is only a physical thing, you then say that I cannot of done it and it is not 'real'. But really the definitons of shapeshifting is more to do with astral anyway so its very much the word used to describe my dreaming/astral experiences. Its just what they call it.

So at the end of the day you just want to ignore the more detailed definitions of shapeshifting, just so you can claim its not 'real' and that I have not actually shapeshifted. But if we go by the more detailed definitons of shapeshifting its obvious Ive been doing it for about 17yrs now.  ;)

Edited by Kazahel, 23 December 2009 - 04:27 PM.


#85    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 06:36 PM

Kahazel quote "think I can safely say that I shapeshifted"

How about right there??  You just said it right after you claimed not to have ever said it??  What are you not getting about this??  If someone says they have done something, that means they have done it, not dreamed about it.  You claim to have shapeshifted, because you dreamed about it. I have not said one lie about you on here, just repeating what you have said. You keep saying things like "I think" and "I believe", and that makes it your opinion, not fact. You say you beleive that dreams are astral traveling, and that you shapeshifted while astral traveling, therefore, you have shapeshifted.  That is just not logical.  Anyone could claim to have done anything they dream about, which is ridiculous.  
Then you turn around and say that if I dreamed I was elected the pope, and therefore claim to be so, that it is only according to me, when by your own definitions, if I dreamed about it, I can therefore claim that is has actually happened.
By your own account: You claim to have dreamed that you shapeshifted, therefore you claim to have shapeshifted.  I claim to have dreamed that I was elected pope, therefore, I can claim to be the pope.  See how ridiculous it sounds??  
I am not the one making drama out of this.  You are the one coming on here and making the claims, then don't like it when someone points out the flaws in your thinking??  That is what these forums are for.  If you do not want people analyzing your claims, then keep them to yourself, instead of posting them in a public forum.

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#86    Kazahel

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 04:19 AM

 667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 23 December 2009 - 06:36 PM, said:

Then you turn around and say that if I dreamed I was elected the pope, and therefore claim to be so, that it is only according to me, when by your own definitions, if I dreamed about it, I can therefore claim that is has actually happened. By your own account: You claim to have dreamed that you shapeshifted, therefore you claim to have shapeshifted.  I claim to have dreamed that I was elected pope, therefore, I can claim to be the pope.  See how ridiculous it sounds??

It only sounds ridiculous becauase you are still ignoring the fact that shapeshifting is also known as a dreaming/astral thing. And you didnt tell me why those definitions are wrong btw.. You just claim they are wrong when really they are not. So because you are mistakenly thinking shapeshifting is only a physical thing, you are trying to claim it is not possible for me to say I shapeshifted. But really because shapeshifting comes under astral and dreaming, then what I call it is correct.


667 said:

I am not the one making drama out of this.  You are the one coming on here and making the claims, then don't like it when someone points out the flaws in your thinking??  That is what these forums are for.  If you do not want people analyzing your claims, then keep them to yourself, instead of posting them in a public forum.
You are not analyzing you are just ignoring the truths so you can keep harping on that shapeshifting isnt an astral or dreaming thing. Thats basically it... you just dont like knowing that shapeshifting comes under that definition.

667 said:

I have not said one lie about you on here, just repeating what you have said.

Quote

because according to you, I can claim that whatever I dream about has actually happened.

You have been repeating this lie. I never said anything like that and didnt use the word "whatever" I'm pretty sure. Which is why I asked you to quote me but you didnt. Which says everything.

So yes I claim to of shapeshifted because shapeshifting is an astral/dreaming thing(which other people agree with.. so its not just imo or what I believe..., thats why there is definitions of that nature). And so the drama is from you not liking that basically.  ;)

Edited by Kazahel, 24 December 2009 - 04:33 AM.


#87    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 02:47 PM

 Kazahel, on 24 December 2009 - 04:19 AM, said:

It only sounds ridiculous becauase you are still ignoring the fact that shapeshifting is also known as a dreaming/astral thing. And you didnt tell me why those definitions are wrong btw.. You just claim they are wrong when really they are not. So because you are mistakenly thinking shapeshifting is only a physical thing, you are trying to claim it is not possible for me to say I shapeshifted. But really because shapeshifting comes under astral and dreaming, then what I call it is correct.



You are not analyzing you are just ignoring the truths so you can keep harping on that shapeshifting isnt an astral or dreaming thing. Thats basically it... you just dont like knowing that shapeshifting comes under that definition.




You have been repeating this lie. I never said anything like that and didnt use the word "whatever" I'm pretty sure. Which is why I asked you to quote me but you didnt. Which says everything.

So yes I claim to of shapeshifted because shapeshifting is an astral/dreaming thing(which other people agree with.. so its not just imo or what I believe..., thats why there is definitions of that nature). And so the drama is from you not liking that basically.  ;)
?It is because you are contradicting yourself.  You claim that you have shapeshifted because you dreamed about it, but then turn around and say that you never claimed to have done anything you dreamed about.  It is ridiculous.  You are not claiming that you dreamed of shapeshifting, you are saying that you shapeshifted, period.  However, when I say that I dreamed I was elected pope, you don't consider that to be the same thing.  So, it seems that someone can claim something that they dreamed about if it falls under what you think is fitting.  If you dreamed that you contracted herpes, would you go around claiming that you have herpes??  :w00t:
Anyway, it seems that neither of us is going to agree with the other.  I don't agree with your definition of things, and you don't agree with mine. So, considering it is Christmas time, I am in too good of a mood to want to continue a pointless disagreement, and I have way too many other things to do, I wish you a Merry Christmas, and may you DREAM about shapeshifting into a flying reindeer, and pulling Santa's sleigh around the world, making millions of children happy!!

There is justice in the world.

#88    Kazahel

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 04:57 PM

 667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 24 December 2009 - 02:47 PM, said:

You are not claiming that you dreamed of shapeshifting, you are saying that you shapeshifted, period.  However, when I say that I dreamed I was elected pope, you don't consider that to be the same thing.

Well I guess I can going by the definitions that you are still ignoring(funny how things turn out)... And you never did tell me why they were wrong...

And I dont consider your silly examples with the pope or now herpes the same at all..  and you know why... because I was saying I think the stories of werewolfs came about because of shapeshifting in dreams. So I never said anything like if you dream of being something that means you are(which you just keep trying to claim and its beyond the joke now). I've always said that the tales of werewolfs probably came about from dream shifting(shapeshifting) and so the name 'werewolf' came from that. So if you were to ask if a 'werewolf' is real you could argue yes considering. So your examples are not the same thing at all. I never said the pope was from an astral/dreaming thing.. only that I thought the legends of werewolfs were from that.

Quote

Anyway, it seems that neither of us is going to agree with the other.  I don't agree with your definition of things, and you don't agree with mine.

Yes thats what it all comes down to in the end isnt it. After all this. You want to only recognise the basic definition.. the HollyWood definition we could call it. lol. If it keeps you happy.  :)

Merry Christmas.

Edited by Kazahel, 24 December 2009 - 05:02 PM.


#89    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 06:14 PM

 Kazahel, on 24 December 2009 - 04:57 PM, said:

Well I guess I can going by the definitions that you are still ignoring(funny how things turn out)... And you never did tell me why they were wrong...

And I dont consider your silly examples with the pope or now herpes the same at all..  and you know why... because I was saying I think the stories of werewolfs came about because of shapeshifting in dreams. So I never said anything like if you dream of being something that means you are(which you just keep trying to claim and its beyond the joke now). I've always said that the tales of werewolfs probably came about from dream shifting(shapeshifting) and so the name 'werewolf' came from that. So if you were to ask if a 'werewolf' is real you could argue yes considering. So your examples are not the same thing at all. I never said the pope was from an astral/dreaming thing.. only that I thought the legends of werewolfs were from that.



Yes thats what it all comes down to in the end isnt it. After all this. You want to only recognise the basic definition.. the HollyWood definition we could call it. lol. If it keeps you happy.  :)

Merry Christmas.
All the following are quotes from you earlier in this thread:

"I mean the first time I even shapeshifted
Shapeshifting is possible
Actually it is shapeshifting
So if you ask me if shapeshifting is possible I will always say yes
And dreaming is as real as life almost
I think dream shifting could easily be just called shapeshifting without needing to seperate any meanings
So dreams are not 'just' dreams to me
shapeshifting is possible.
But if we go by the more detailed definitons of shapeshifting its obvious Ive been doing it for about 17yrs now
think I can safely say that I shapeshifted
So yes I claim to of shapeshifted"

My point is, dreaming about doing something is not that same as doing it.  Dreams are strictly imaginary.  It is ridiculous to claim "i have shapeshifted" when you have only done so in dreams, which is strictly your imagination at work while you sleep.  If everyone claimed to have actually done something that they only dreamed about, the world would be a ridiculous place. But the world is not like that, because everyone knows that the events that happen in dreams are imaginary, not real, have no basis in reality, therefore, most people are not crazy enough to say that they have actually done something simply because it happened in a dream.

There is justice in the world.

#90    Kazahel

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  • What need is there of seeing, in the presence of His gratitude?

Posted 25 December 2009 - 01:16 AM

 667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 24 December 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

My point is, dreaming about doing something is not that same as doing it.

In regards to shapeshifting though(which is more to do with this thread).. and as the definitions I provided back up.... it is. So for me to say I shapeshifted is the truth considering the definitions I provided that you STILL ignore... place it under that. So you only keep harping on because you dont want to acknowledge a more proper definition.


667 said:

Dreams are strictly imaginary.  It is ridiculous to claim "i have shapeshifted" when you have only done so in dreams, which is strictly your imagination at work while you sleep.  If everyone claimed to have actually done something that they only dreamed about, the world would be a ridiculous place. But the world is not like that, because everyone knows that the events that happen in dreams are imaginary, not real, have no basis in reality, therefore, most people are not crazy enough to say that they have actually done something simply because it happened in a dream.

You dont even want to understand.  :rolleyes:  Because I've just been repeating myself over and over for you and you still ignore what I've told you.

But I'll put it in bold for you again if you like, so you dont ignore it again and keep saying the same silly things....

Kazahel said:

So I never said anything like if you dream of being something that means you are(which you just keep trying to claim and its beyond the joke now). I've always said that the tales of werewolfs probably came about from dream shifting(shapeshifting) and so the name 'werewolf' came from that. So if you were to ask if a 'werewolf' is real you could argue yes considering. So your examples are not the same thing at all. I never said the pope was from an astral/dreaming thing.. only that I thought the legends of werewolfs were from that.


Edited by Kazahel, 25 December 2009 - 01:17 AM.





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