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The Top One Reason Religion Is Harmful


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#106    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 01:59 PM

View PostKarlis, on 30 November 2009 - 10:35 AM, said:

Beckys Mom – sometimes when you answer a post, instead of answering the specific point, you address something else. In this instance you have done that again. The subject was how ancient Hebrews regarded child abuse -- you changed that to how MANKIND in general sexually abused children, throughout history. I hope you can see the difference. ~~~ Of course, you are free to believe that the Hebrews were no exception, if you like.


Hebrews are no exception what so ever...... Hebrews are part of the hiuman race  even the ancient Hebrews were part of the human race also known as - MAN  (mankind)

Whats this about A tangant? So because I disagree with your statement on how you seem to think that ancient hebrews didnt molest children back then... I address that with a disagreement and you call it a tangant? So I guess if I was all – ok Karlis you are so right great post that's not a tangent?  Gimme a break  ...if you don't like it when your posts get challenged in return...then why bother addressing my posts?  I mean if you call me disagreeing with you and asking you to provide evidence ect...a tangent... then you doing the same with me is going off on your own little tangent... I do expect people to disagree with me and I like it, as its a challenge...it makes the topic more interesting....

Quote

  As to your statement that I, "have nothing that suggests they [the ancient Hebrews] didnt" sexually abuse children:
In a post (December last year) I wrote about this very point -- how the ancient Hebrew tribes treated young children.


Ancient Hebrews  believe it or not are in fact part of man-kind... like all humans...human beings ancient or not are all part of man  (mankind) it covers  all... I thought you would know this...obviously you have put mankind and ancient Hebrews into two separate categories

When I stated - You say feel free to provide evidence that man didnt rape/molest children back then...........
That includes ancient man  don't matter if it were hebrew or english...African...muslims even...... it don't matter... all point to man kind

Quote


As to your statement that I, "have nothing that suggests they [the ancient Hebrews] didnt" sexually abuse children:
In a post (December last year) I wrote about this very point -- how the ancient Hebrew tribes treated young children.

  

And I was right...you don't.you where not  able to present me with anything that states ancient hebrews did not sexually molest (or rape children)... you presented nothing..when I 1st asked you.......... and now you have gone and typed out something that you think proves you are right...but see you are missing one vital thing here Karlis... the source as to where you took the info you just posted below........no source....nothing

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1. Most girls were married soon/immediately after they began menstruating in the ANE (circa 12 years of age), and since infant and child mortality was so high, the average age of the girls spared would have been around 5 years of age or slightly lower (life expectancy wasn't a straight line, with childhood risks so high). Of all the horrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT, pedophilia is the one conspicuous omission. That these little kids would have been even considered as 'sex slaves' seems quite incongruent with their ages.

And, at this tender age, they would not have been very useful as 'slaves' at all! Children raised in Israelite households were 'put to work' around this age, sometimes doing light chores to help the mother for up to four hours per day by the age of 7 or 8 [OT:FAI:27], but 5 is still a bit young. Instead, the Israelite families would have had to feed, clothe, train, care, protect, and shelter them for several years before they could make much contribution to the family's existence and survival.
Also note that 'slavery' in the ANE/OT generally means something quite different from "New World" slavery, which we normally associate with the world 'slavery', and most of what is called that in popular literature should not be so termed. See qnoslave.html for the discussion and documentation.

2. Unlike the Greeks and Romans, the Ancient Near East [ANE] was not very 'into' using slaves/captives for sexual purposes …

3. And the Hebrews were different in this regard ANYWAY:
"This fidelity and exclusivity [demands on the wife] did not apply to the husband. ***Except among the Hebrews,*** where a husband's infidelity was disparaged …

4. Even if we allow the age range to be older, to include girls capable of bearing children, the probability is that it was not sex-motivated, but population/economics-motivated, as Carol Meyers points out ["The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel", Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41):

"Beyond this, however, the intensified need for female participation in working out the Mosaic revolution in the early Israelite period can be seen in the Bible. Looking again at Numbers 31, an exception to the total purge of the Midianite population is to be noted. In addition to the metal objects which were exempt from utter destruction, so too were the "young girls who have not known man by lying with him" (Num 31:18). These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in a kind of quarantine period. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [Eickhoff 1977].)

Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp. ***This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior;*** rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes—and the prevention of death by plague—as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women. The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and the need for females of childbearing age took precedence."

[I should also point out that the "for yourselves" phrase (31.18) [u]is NOT actually referring to "for your pleasure"
,
but is a reference to the opposite condition of "for YHWH" which applied to all people or property which was theoretically supposed to be destroyed in such combat situations.

The herem (or 'ban') specifically indicated that all enemy people or property which was 'delivered over to YHWH' was to be killed/destroyed. By referring to 'for yourselves', then, in this passage, means simply 'do not kill them'. This can also be seen in that this 'booty' was not 'for themselves' actually, but was distributed to others within the community.]
END QUOTE

  

See all of the above........ you failed to leave the source... this forum requires all members to post up a source...........I for one want to see the source...for all i know you clould have typed this all out from your own head...just saying .............And if you don't mind I would like a source... I am curious as to what web page you took this info from...forum rules after all...

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  Beckys Mom, you may not agree with what I posted there, but please don't go off at a tangent by writing,

"...So if thats the case...from your logic........... rape on a child only happened more recent? thats absurd
Child rape has been going on forever
... its not as if man only descided to do it now because its the going trend  

Again I stand by that statment....and no its not a tangent... its my honest answer  and opinion... for as long as man has walked this earth  (yes this includes ancient man as in ancient hebrews).....then rape  (child rape) was going on

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  Perhaps paedophilia was not practiced by the ancient Hebrews during their forty-year travels in the Wilderness period  

Ancient Hebrews were around a lot longer than the 40 years of traveling  lol.... I mean come on Karlis.. by reading that it looks as if they only begun to exist when they travelled into the wildreness for 40 years..........they were around long before that and after it...

I still believe that man back then  ( including ancient hebrews as man)... did lust after children and did sexually molest them... I fail to believe that this type of crime is something new.... no its not

Take a look at the RCC..(Roman Catholic Church). look how they have turned a blind eye to peado acts done by priests....from what I have learned, a lot did in fact turn a blind eye to it
As it was the RCC that put the bible together... and with them turning a blind eye to molesting children...it would not surprize me if I found out that it was written in the bible that sexually molesting  (or raping) a child is against god...<---like I said, it would not surprize me if the RCC took that out  and made sure it was not put into the bible........again this is just my own theory....as quite often, I keep seeing more things with the RCC that is very corrupt...come to think of it...I recall a number of born again christians that say the same thing, on how the RCC is corrupted............so yeaa it wouldnt surprize me at all

For i find it very hard to believe that the bible as itself directs at many horrible crimes...murder...theft...ect... and leave out one of the most horrible and evil crimes - child rape/abuse   ... <--- it doesn't make sense..........therefore it leads me to beleive the RCC saw it and took it out ...as they were the ones that 1st put the bible together

Also if it were addressed directly in the bible Karlis.... I would dare say that - that quote above..the long one you presents as evidence to claim ancient hebrews didnt rape kids  ...I would dare say that, if the bible spoke out against child rape.. then that article you pasted above wouldnt have been written......as it looks obvious that someone else has caught on to how the bible has left it out and not directed anything towards child rape and abuse...so I recon they made up their own views and published them...to make it look as though man back then didnt do that....

As if lusting after a child would never enter a man/womans head? (even ancient man kinds head)... that is absurd and very hard to beleive

Quote

That said, since you now don't have the time or inclination to get involved in serious discussions, I'll understand if you choose to drop this subject.
  
I am very busy...but for this I will make time...as i take this subject of child rape ect very seriously ... in fact I support a charity on that very thing.. so you can be sure I will address it

Everything I state is my own opinion and I am very much entitled to them...not tangents as you like to call them...I call it how I see it... not my fault you dont like it mate

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 30 November 2009 - 02:18 PM.

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#107    Render

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 03:32 PM

Let's also not forget about the numerous cults in the world. Claiming they're religious.

One mind ministries cult.
Where a baby died..and probably a lot of other stuff happened. It died cuz the brainwashed irrational mother didn't feed it for 2 days, which all the rest agreed uppon. Because the child didn't say "amen" once after dinner. So they assumed it was possessed. Ahum.

Or other cults where child rape was practically the rule. "In the name of the Lord" of course.



How in the hell are ppl sometimes so gullible they'd let all that happen to their own children/themselves? Giving themselves up to a higher power..their brain first.
Preposterous!


#108    Karlis

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 07:09 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 30 November 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

Hebrews are no exception what so ever......
Hebrews of the time-period we are talking about, had a rather unique culture, going by what is written in the Bible about them

You asked why the Bible does not mention peadophilia as a sin. I answered you using Bible sources.





View PostBeckys_Mom, on 30 November 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

~~~ ...
... you where not  able to present me with anything that states ancient hebrews did not sexually molest (or rape children)... you presented nothing..when I 1st asked you.......... and now you have gone and typed out something that you think proves you are right...but see you are missing one vital thing here Karlis... the source as to where you took the info you just posted below........no source....nothing
Beckys Mom, I gave you the source from the Bible, and I gave you an explanation of the historical background involved. If you can not be bothered to read that, that is your problem ... not mine.

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 30 November 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

~~~ ...
...  b]you failed to leave the source... this forum requires all members to post up a source...........I for one want to see the source...for all i know you clould have typed this all out from your own head...just saying .............And if you don't mind I would like a source... I am curious as to what web page you took this info from...forum rules after all...
The source was in the post. If you can not see it, please let me know.

EDIT: Sorry Beckys Mom, there is a source in my post, but that was specifically forthe subject of 'slavery'.  The source from which I copy-pasted into my post
is here

Edited by Karlis, 30 November 2009 - 07:39 PM.


#109    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:26 PM

[quote] name='Triade' date='30 November 2009 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1259508912' post='3188633']
You're saying marriage? A human made concept is an essential part of life?
What a strange thing to say/believe.[/quote]
I appreciate your opinion but having studied humanities studies from history through to politics and a couple of years of psychology, as well as living for nearly 60 years, i think the reverse is true. To argue that a form of marriage is not an esential ingredient for any succcessful human society is very strange thing to believe.
Being sapient, most things essential to humans are not just material. For example, children require love (as do all humans) to survive and prosper and to become well adjusted. Humans require speech for survival, which is entirely a construct of our sapience. And humans require all the physical constructs created from using their minds and hands in tandem, like fire clothing shelter etc, for survival in most places. The concept of creating fire or making a shelter is a human construct, just as faith and religion are.
[quote]That's even completely ignoring the concepts of monogamy/polygamy. While some animals show they are intrinsically monogamous (albatross, some parakeets/parrots) These are mostly species where everyone looks the same. There are more animals/species where there is no monogamy to speak of.[/quote]

Humanity's need for mariaege is based on two things. Our biology(long gestation and long period of infant child dependency ) and our sapience. Humans  have the ability to construct symbols, and their emotions are a combination of attachment to these symbolic concepts and bilogical emotions. Thus humans love and hate. Something no other animals have been shown to do. And so commitment etc plays an emotional part in human relationships We learn and value emotional attachments from birth. There is no  way tomake a relevant comparison with animals, even though many animals are monogomous for life.
[quote]
While some ppl prefer a monogamous lifestyle, others don't. Marriage could be out of the question..not everyone yearns this. It's not essential to life.[/quote] Tough. If you are going to have kids, you owe it to them to be in a stable long term relationship while they are in the years where they require nurture and teaching by parents.

If you dont want to have kids you still need to consider the emotional and medical risks of non monogamous relationships. Suicide and stds are both the result of  personal relationships gone wrong. Fortunately the first is much rarer than the second.
Plus, men "naturally" prefer a different form of relationship to women, for biological and practical reasons . Marriage equalises and makes fairer the natural imbalance in these needs/requirements.



[quote]Are you seriously asking that question? NOW? in 2009? Really?[/quote]
Absolutely and with great relevance The break down in marriage (aside from the use of alcohol and drugs) has probably contributed more to human suffering and pain than any other single factor in modern society. I speak from  observations of "local"societies and as an observer of world society.
Of course my opinion is based on my value judgements and value lines. For example, I value the right of a child to a loving and caring parenting by two parents, as more important than the individual rights of adults who have made their choices and have many other freedoms within their lives.

I counsel, and have to deal with the consequences of every day, both personally and, professionally,  children from very young to approaching adulthood, who are being destroyed from within by the nature of modern family relationships and the breakdown of stable monogamous relationships.



[quote]
And that basic need is completely independant from religion.
Love etc is not something that is necessarily intertwined with religion, at all.[/quote]
But ethics and morality have historically been intertwined with  religion, and in the case of, say, christianity, it recognises and supports the need to construct social relationships in a way which protects the most vulnerable.

[quote]This is exactly what the bible is yes. A book of mythological stories, each representing a moral of some kind.
Something that was maybe more effective back in the ages...but can hardly be looked at as a book of Law.[/quote]

The bible and judaeo christian moralities evolved together, but not via cause and effect. ie civil societies recognise the values recognised within religions such as christianity for good reasons.

[quote]the stable?[/quote]
Id laugh except im afraid yopu are serious.


[quote]And again, the bible should not be looked at as a book of rules/law.
It could be looked at as nighttime story for the children with a moral in it. But not something as important as some ppl would like to believe it is.[/quote]

It is both.
It is a guide of moral stories But thiose moralities to be useful also need to be enshrined in civil law, as long as this is done with democratic process.
[quote]
And you say that humanity is still childish and needs this book for guidance.
Well I'd rather say that using a book like that for guidance in this world is the childish thing to do. + it causes a lot of unnecassary missery all over the place.[/quote]

Look around you at the actions of mankind Of course we are still in the childhood stage of our evolution Worse we are more like adolescents. not mentally or socially matured yet with physical strength untempered by logic or empathy.
Mankind in general needs not just rules but laws and enforcemet of those laws in every area until each human being grows up and begins to act like an adult Then we still need rules /laws for guidance, but we are mature enough to recognise their value and the need to obe y them and holefully dont need police and sanctions to punish us.


[quote]
And like I said, this was clearly the consequence of a lack of education. They cried, saying they had no idea this would kill her. C'mon..burning someone doesn't just "happen". You know what the consequences are....you know that even if you pray the person wont stop burning/dying. That's just not how it works.[/quote]
Not personally aware of the case, or contextual relevance here. We all act on what we believe to be true. Sometimes knowledge does not go far enough and we have to act on belief. Othertimes we have to make a judgement between two values.

For example we cant know what will happen upon death. Thus a person who believes that by certain actions they may gain immortality will see the mortal life with different values to a person who believes this is all we get.

For such people saving an immortal existence is a logically higher priority than saving an earthly physical existence of several decades. I dont believe this myself but i can empathise with people who do .

Edited by Mr Walker, 30 November 2009 - 10:57 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#110    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:39 PM

name=]']]
So you admit it was the work of medical science that helped you recover and get better along with the aid of god

So science was there for you...
Sure. Thats the point im making. Science is invaluable it saved my life But so did god. Science alone would not have saved it because science was unable to detect i had a heart problem. God informed me of this. God also watched over me, sent an angel and messages to tell me he was doing so and created withinme peace calm and tranquilty. Along with oxycodein, god ameloriated my pain making it something i could look at from outside rather than suffer through.

Quote

Tell me Mr Walker.. what about those who are deeply religious and they do not believe in any use of medical science and yet we read how they thought that by just using god and praying, still in the end their loved ones died as a result without medical treatment... a few have posted  these stories on this same board....
....how come their prayers didn't cure the sick children? They obviously poured all heart and faith that god would miraculously cure their kid...but evidence tells us this did not happen..........My own child fell really ill too, and although I hold a firm belief in god... I knew she wouldn't have a hope in hell of surving without medical science... so I had to pray that the meds given to her would work...as the previous meds didnt do the trick........ I mixed BOTH, for I am not that stupid to think praying does it alone!!

I would always use medical science as well as faith. Having said that, i know faith can heal where science cannot and have had this happen to me as well.

Again, a sensible and logical person will make use of both to maximise their recovery. God and faith CAN cure everything; from cancer dow,n without the intervention of science(although i accept lt ripleys point that it does not directly regrow limbs :)

It is only in very recent years that medical science has recognised its limitations and accepted alternative methods such as meditation mnd positive thinking/faith, in the treatment of things like cancer.


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Question for you Mr Walker... – Do you not think that god has in fact gave some of us the abilities to create medicine that aids cures?  After all isn't each of us born with a gift? Then if we believe that some are born with the want to help sick people that they were smart enough to seek cures and experiment to see what works right? That is a gift I for one don't have... but doctors and men/ women of science do have it...

God gives us all our gifts and talents, but we chose how much to use them.

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Another thing Mr Walker... if you would rather live in a world with no science what so ever, then why aren't you living in a cave somewhere?  (we all know the avarage cave man age was 26)....... making your own clothes...killing animals using  what you can to kill these animals to feed yourself, and if you get sick, then you would have to sit and pray it away with no other help....constantly digging holes to burry your poop...sooner or later would pop up and cause a disease....which is most likely another factor that points to why cave mans avarage age was just 26........they had no real hope without science[/quote

You are thinking like an athiest :)

A believer in a real and physicla creative god would not see them selves living in a cave Why would they In gods created world there was no rain or lightning No dangerous animals Thus no need for protection or shelter. WE would not wear clothes First the climate was created to suit our needs, second we were not separated but as one. Thus we were not ashamed of nakedness and did not need clothing to cover it Nor did we need clothing to separate and identify us.
God gave all humnas needed. And life was not 26 years, but millenia. No one got sick. No one felt pain. Not even in childbirth.  I dont "believe" this scenario, but in a world where god is real, present and connected to each person humans dont require much of the physical Water, nuts and berries, and fruit were about all our physical requirements.You are thinking in human terms rather than in spiritual terms.

Quote

O

Even if you got sick and relied on the plants of the earth to treat you, you would still be using science, for that is you curing yourself, finding ways to make yourself better, that's science...its experimenting..again all points to the art of science
See above. No getting sick. A person in spiritual balance with, and connected to an entity like god would not get ill.

Quote

God from what I believe, put each of us here for a reason... and if you like to believe he created a planet that held natural plants that can aid us to get better..... then isn't it obvious he expected man to seek what is there and experiment from these plants to create cures?.I mean he did give man a brain to think and figure things out yes?..by doing this experiments, is still science
Perhaps eventually, but that was part of the tree of knowledge, and originally god did not want us to eat of it until we were spiritually mature and wise enough to do so withput causing harm and havoc. In tasting physical knowledge and knowing the good and bad results possible by applying physical knowledge when he did, man redirected his life.
Humans had no need to build anything until they evolved to that stage of their maturity.  And god explicitly forbad them from aquiring the ability to do so because he recognised what would happen (again this is not fact but what the bible and many other creation stories say)
Fro loki to pandoras box, man has recognised the duality and dangers inherent in physical knowledge and the need to temper it with wisdom or spiritual knowledge.


Quote

So if you can live in a world with no science.....then you may as well be a cave man and do without any treatments....and hope for the best in the coldest winders you can survive with your warm heart!!

But thats not how i see it. I would never be cold or hungry in a world where god provided. More to the point There would be no anger, lust, greed, hate,  etc I would never be depressed or lonely because i woul,dbe connected not just to god but to all humanity. Rather than individuals, divided by our separate minds and bodies, we would be one in many important ways

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But somehow I get the feeling you would not even dream of living like some caveman eh Mr Walker? you need science as well as god... god created science and gave man the ability to seek, discover and experiement with the sources god has planted on this green earth

Only in the world as it is. not in the world as god may have created it

Quote

EDIT - If you believe god created the earth and the universe and all that is living...he created plants ect for use to use and experiemnt with along with so much more, we are part of gods own experiemnt...so that makes god out to be the ultimate scientist of them all
This is a fair opinion, but there are other alternatives. It is a human hubris to believe the rest of the natural world was created for our use. It may simply be a part of gods creation A home and habitat for humanity( which biblically he created only after the natural world.)

In eden, man did not have to cut down a single tree , disturb a single blade of grass, harm a single animal, light a single fire. He did not even have to skin animals, or cut down plants to provide for his needs. Eden, and god, combined provided fully for them all.
We were able to understand and appreciate the natural beauty of the world and synchronicity of nature without having to do anything at all to despoil it. Adam and eve had a deep knowledge and understanding of the natural world, but no need to do anything but enjoy it and learn from it.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#111    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 09:04 AM

View PostKarlis, on 30 November 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:

Hebrews of the time-period we are talking about, had a rather unique culture, going by what is written in the Bible about them

You asked why the Bible does not mention peadophilia as a sin. I answered you using Bible sources.


1st of all it doesn't matter what culture man came from....still part of mankind...

2nd  There is no way in hell anyone can possibly claim that way back a few thousand years ago, hebrews did not lust after children and rape them.... why? becuase in order to do that, there would have to be someone back then to document each person each day that passed.....and the chances of that ..well put it this way, you'd have a better chance in winning the national lottery...

Just because man didnt make it out like a crime or a big deal...doesn't mean it never happened

To even think that back then a certin kind of people just never thought of lusting after children is absolutely absurd......and I seriously mean absurd

There is no way in hell anyone would know what an entire population over a long time period could document day to day lives of hebrews...impossible...they would need to report every last hebrews lives and all that went on in private.....no way

When you think about the amount of children even in modern times, that kept quiet about the sexual abuse adults did.......too scared to speak out........so I would darwe say that happened back then too

It would be rather ignorant of me to think that only a handful of crimes  were newly invented by modern man..........I can't bring myself to say that let alone post it lol....

IE - If homosexuality where never addressed in the bible....not a word on homosexuality was ever mentioned in the bible.....(and I did say IF) .........what's the bet a number of christians would say... aha but back in those days man never did that sort of thing, this is proof its just a choice and a bad one at that?  <--I wouldnt put it past them......but truth is homosexuality existed back then.... so did murder, and rape of all kinds. heck it used to be OK to lust after a family member before the bible outlawed it.... I mean come on Karlis.... you cannot convince me that it didnt take place.........especially if its impossible to document every last hebrew that ever lived back then on a daily bases<--would have taken forever...and not everyone reported what went on behind closed doors either...heck they still don't, and yes a lot of kids are too frightened to speak out, too many threats...some wind up being murdered after the sexual assualt




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#112    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM

View PostKarlis, on 30 November 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:


EDIT: Sorry Beckys Mom, there is a source in my post, but that was specifically forthe subject of 'slavery'.  The source from which I copy-pasted into my post
is here

Thank you for finially postig the source for me to read..........

Karlis.........if ancient Hebrews did not ever think of lusting or having sex with children......... then explain to me why Moses ordered man to do it?

Taken directly from the source you posted  --> Posted ImageMoses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:

Moses was part of the ancient hebrews wasn't he? So Karlis if Hebrews didnt do that sort of thing back then....why would he encourage it?

To add..moses was born a hebrew... later adopted but went back to his hebrew roots later  

This gets worse..from the source you presented......-->
Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops. Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns. If genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is a war crime, then this act of Moses was clearly a war crime…


The same God who commanded the Israelites to slaughter all Midianite males (including infants) and all adult Midianite women? The same God who commanded that the young girls be tested for virginity and given to their captors as sex-slaves?Posted Image

Absolutely disgusting and down right evil...and how the heck can one test a girls virginity? ....reading through that source was absolutely disgusting and horrible.............. and you say hebrews didnt do rape on children...yet you present me with a source that disproves your own point........moses encouraging men to do it to children.........totally horrible

this is so much clearer now Karlis.....you have just presented me with something from the bible that shows how one of gods chosen people encouraged child sex.....as sickening as that sounds....its no bloody wonder priests think its ok to do it..........sick!!
http://www.christian...com/midian.html


Posted Image OMG!!! talk about pure evil back then....any wonder I don't like bible stories and its characters... that was just sick

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#113    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 09:58 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 November 2009 - 11:39 PM, said:

Sure. Thats the point im making. Science is invaluable it saved my life But so did god. Science alone would not have saved it because science was unable to detect i had a heart problem.

So according to you, those that don't hold the same beliefs as you...but take ill just the same as what you did... medical science wouldnt have saved them? thats is nonsense and ignorant to say the least

Quote

Again, a sensible and logical person will make use of both to maximise their recovery. God and faith CAN cure everything; from cancer dow,n without the intervention of science(although i accept lt ripleys point that it does not directly regrow limbs Posted Image
  
Then that makes me out to be a sensible and logical person....for I did suffer from cancer....but used science and prayer for treatment...still do .. (only becuase I havent reached the 5 year all clear as yet)

BUT.....there is no way a person can b cured from cancer without science...impossible

Quote

You are thinking like an athiest Posted Image
  

No I was thinking like any other logical person would think... thinking about the real world - reality...and as I know the history of the caveman, it helped me with my line of thinking....... besides I dont know how an atheist would think...i've never been one...

But like I told you previously.......if you want to live in a world with no science what so ever...then you may as  well go live your life in a cave....I meant that seriously....for its the only way to do it

Quote

A believer in a real and physicla creative god would not see them selves living in a cave Why would they In gods created world there was no rain or lightning No dangerous animals Thus no need for protection or shelter.  

What? lol Walker with no rain what so ever.how do you suppose man could survive without water?

So according to you.........if man wanted to live in a science free world.....it would need to be on a different planet..because even your own bible speaks of all weathers lol..... and no dangerous animals  <----  you wouldnt be living on gods green earth......... so you would need to be on another planet..one that has nothing but friendly little animals, sunshine non stop and all is dandy......and can survive without drinking water......now thats a perfect description of dream land.seriously!!!Posted Image

Quote

You are thinking in human terms rather than in spiritual terms.

Probably because I don't live in a dream world.....I live in reality and view things in reality Mr Walker...LOL

And the reality is Mr Walker, you would not survive in your dream world with no rain ect... key words are reality not a dream world...

Quote

But thats not how i see it. I would never be cold or hungry in a world where god provided. More to the point There would be no anger, lust, greed, hate, etc I would never be depressed or lonely because i woul,dbe connected not just to god but to all humanity. Rather than individuals, divided by our separate minds and bodies, we would be one in many important ways
  

Ahhhhhhhhh to live in a little dream world.... I guess utopia would be great, pity its not part of the real world then eh?

Hey Mr walker...when I challenged you, I challenged you in reality terms not what you dream of with out reality...I speak about the real world, you speak of something you dream of!!... and you still try and debate it? this doesnt remotely make any sense

Lets all make up little dream worlds..were reality doesn't exist..hey get the atheists involved...they too can dream up a world with no rain, no cold weather, no dangerous animals, no bad things happening... anyone can dream of a world like that Mr Walker... but its just wishful thinking!!!

Mr Walker with respect, if you wish to take this further, can you at least address it in the terms of a real world that we do actually live in and not some dream land like utopia?  I'm not being funny..im serious......  My daughter would love to live in a dream world too filled with sweets non stop and a massive trampoline, and she can fly like Supergirl .........but see she is a child and can be excused for these ideas...


Edited by Beckys_Mom, 01 December 2009 - 10:12 AM.

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#114    Karlis

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 10:36 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

~~~  ...
... Karlis.........if ancient Hebrews did not ever think of lusting or having sex with children......... then explain to me why Moses ordered man to do it?

Taken directly from the source you posted  --> Posted ImageMoses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:
Beckys Mom, please show me Scriptures where this is written. To my knowledge there are no such Scriptures.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

Moses was part of the ancient hebrews wasn't he? So Karlis if Hebrews didnt do that sort of thing back then....why would he encourage it?
I think you are misreading scriptures.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

... This gets worse..from the source you presented......--> Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops.

Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns. If genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is a war crime, then this act of Moses was clearly a war crime…
You have not read the relevant chapters in Numbers, have you? Or, if you did read, then you paid no attention to the reasons given there (and which reasons are explained in detail in the article I provided).


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

The same God who commanded the Israelites to slaughter all Midianite males (including infants) and all adult Midianite women? The same God who commanded that the young girls be tested for virginity and given to their captors as sex-slaves?Posted Image
Beckys Mom -- it seems you do not understand the explanation as to why these killings were ordered.

More importantly:
The idea that the young girls were given to their captors as sex-slaves comes directly from your imagination, Beckys Mom. There is no basis for that in the Bible.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

Absolutely disgusting and down right evil...
That's your opinion, again ... not sourced from Scriptures.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

and how the heck can one test a girls virginity? ....
Ask any nurse or doctor how this can be checked. How do you think it was done?


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

... and you say hebrews didnt do rape on children...yet you present me with a source that disproves your own point........moses encouraging men to do it to children.........
That's from your imagination, Beckys Mom. There are no Scriptures to support what you write.


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

this is so much clearer now Karlis.....you have just presented me with something from the bible that shows how one of gods chosen people encouraged child sex.....
Your opinion again, Beckys Mom, based on nothing more than on your imagination. There is no support in the Bible that shows, "how one of gods chosen people encouraged child sex".


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 09:28 AM, said:

http://www.christian...com/midian.html


Posted Image OMG!!! talk about pure evil back then....any wonder I don't like bible stories and its characters... that was just sick



#115    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 10:45 AM

View PostKarlis, on 01 December 2009 - 10:36 AM, said:

Beckys Mom, please show me Scriptures where this is written. To my knowledge there are no such Scriptures.


I think you are misreading scriptures.

Your memory must be short...for it was you that sent me that link...when you wrote....see below..


EDIT: Sorry Beckys Mom, there is a source in my post, but that was specifically forthe subject of 'slavery'. The source from which I copy-pasted into my post
is here <------------so I clicked on that link you provided and low and behold to my horror I read......Moses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:



http://www.christian...com/midian.html<--- thats the link you Karlis posted previously... so you ask where did it get the info from...I got it directly from you!!!!!!!

Seriously read the links you provide Karlis... you presented me with a link that makes it all sound a lot worse and it proved my point ...Moses encouraging sex on to children... i mean if that don't take the biscuit  i dunno what does!!!

Go ahead....scroll back up to your post and click on your link..I think its safe to say you will see just what I posted  lol


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#116    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 10:53 AM

View PostKarlis, on 01 December 2009 - 10:36 AM, said:

Beckys Mom -- it seems you do not understand the explanation as to why these killings were ordered.




So one needs an explaination to kill infants? wtf?

Quote

That's from your imagination, Beckys Mom. There are no Scriptures to support what you write.
  

Karlis you gave me all that info that I posted up..it came from you.... did you bother to read your own link??

The same God who commanded the Israelites to slaughter all Midianite males (including infants) and all adult Midianite women? The same God who commanded that the young girls be tested for virginity and given to their captors as sex-slaves?  <-----------I copied that from the link YOU provided above... seems to me you dont even look at the links you post!!!

Click on your own link you will find all of what I posted in there... if you claim you dont see it..then it would be wrong of you .. you were the one that posted the link that contained this info...in post 108 it was the last line you posted saying ->
EDIT: Sorry Beckys Mom, there is a source in my post, but that was specifically forthe subject of 'slavery'. The source from which I copy-pasted into my post
is here <------------so I clicked on that link you provided and low and behold to my horror I read......Moses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:

here is YOUR link again the same link you present above  --> http://www.christian...com/midian.html

My imagination eh?? LOL not bloody likely LOL


Edited by Beckys_Mom, 01 December 2009 - 10:58 AM.

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#117    Karlis

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 11:35 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 10:45 AM, said:

Your memory must be short...for it was you that sent me that link...when you wrote....see below..


EDIT: Sorry Beckys Mom, there is a source in my post, but that was specifically forthe subject of 'slavery'. The source from which I copy-pasted into my post
is here <------------so I clicked on that link you provided and low and behold to my horror I read......Moses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:



http://www.christian...com/midian.html<--- thats the link you Karlis posted previously... so you ask where did it get the info from...I got it directly from you!!!!!!!

Seriously read the links you provide Karlis... you presented me with a link that makes it all sound a lot worse and it proved my point ...Moses encouraging sex on to children... i mean if that don't take the biscuit  i dunno what does!!!

Go ahead....scroll back up to your post and click on your link..I think its safe to say you will see just what I posted  lol

Becky's Mom, you really need to concentrate on what you are reading.

Please go back to the source I provided and read the first paragraph of the article (the one preceding the paragraphs in bold type).

I'm copy-pasting it here:

The incident recorded in Numbers 31 is frequently mentioned as an illustration of God’s cruelty or  His “nature as a human fabrication of twisted minds”. The passage is a troubling one, for many reasons, but there are many misconceptions about what actually happened in the text as well. Consider some of the statements people have sent into me about this event:

The sourec once again
http://www.christian...com/midian.html


Beckys Mom, the paragraphs in bold that follow are what people who want to discredit God in the Bible have written to the author of that article.

THAT is the information you posted.
Those are false accusations, which the author debunks in his articles.

Hope that is helpful,
Karlis


#118    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 11:44 AM

View PostKarlis, on 01 December 2009 - 11:35 AM, said:

Becky's Mom, you really need to concentrate on what you are reading.

Please go back to the source I provided and read the first paragraph of the article (the one preceding the paragraphs in bold type).

I'm copy-pasting it here:

The incident recorded in Numbers 31 is frequently mentioned as an illustration of God's cruelty or  His "nature as a human fabrication of twisted minds". The passage is a troubling one, for many reasons, but there are many misconceptions about what actually happened in the text as well. Consider some of the statements people have sent into me about this event:

The sourec once again
http://www.christian...com/midian.html


Beckys Mom, the paragraphs in bold that follow are what people who want to discredit God in the Bible have written to the author of that article.

THAT is the information you posted.
Those are false accusations, which the author debunks in his articles.

Hope that is helpful,
Karlis

Don't run of in a tangent over a link that YOU posted... you were the one that posted that exact link.. were I got this so called info from....anyone here reading will see exactly what it says... they will read how it says moses encouraged sex on to children  <---------LOL you provided me with the info...I clicked and I read it

and now you are complaining over a link you provided?  not my fault you felt the need to post it

Something tells me you glanced at your own link and pasted what suited you...and left out large areas that make your points look invalid

I would ask anyone that reads this...to go to post 108...and read the bottom of your post Karlis where you post up a link that does state...moses encouraged sex on to children and the rest of the horror that goes with it

So all this talk on how ancient hebrews didnt do that sort of thing.well moses was a hebrew and according to your source he encouraged sex on to kids

thank you Karlis for proving my point and disproving your own... for your post 108 at the bottom link provided by YOU just showed me exactly what I was talking about.. lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 01 December 2009 - 11:47 AM.

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#119    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 11:59 AM

View PostKarlis, on 30 November 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:

EDIT: Sorry Beckys Mom, there is a source in my post, but that was specifically forthe subject of 'slavery'.  The source from which I copy-pasted into my post
is here

Once again from the link you gladly provided............and if anyone else cares to click on your link they will read this...which BTW just looks like a bunch of opinions from someones blog...and you call that a reliable source eh? you must have thought it was...honestly Karlis..you should have looked for a more educational website to back up your claims not some blog of opinions... and if you scroll to the bottom of the page you will see the author of the entire thing is - Glen Miller   <-------all of what you tried to use as evidence came from a guy called glen miller!!!!!!.....and that is supposed to prove you were right? really?.....................so if I go into non chrisitan web sites and post stuff written by other that would make me right too? Posted Image


"Speaking of which, isn't this the same God who commanded the genocide of the Midianites? The same God who commanded the Israelites to slaughter all Midianite males (including infants) and all adult Midianite women? The same God who commanded that the young girls be tested for virginity and given to their captors as sex-slaves?



"In Numbers 31:15-18, after his soldiers had killed all of the men among the Midianites, Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops. Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns. If genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is a war crime, then this act of Moses was clearly a war crime…What possible reason could Moses have given in order to justify this horrendous act of genocide? After all, wasn't he the great "law giver"? He claimed that Yahweh, the God of Israel, ordered him to do this, because the Midianites worshiped a deity named Baal Peor. The Midianites felt that Baal Peor was nature's god, the creator of the universe, whereas the Israelites believed that their god Yahweh was the creator. .. So, in effect, what we have here is a demonization of those people who refer to the creator by a different name. These people are accused of worshiping a false god.


First, he orders Moses to lead Israel in a war against the Midianites:  And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites... (vss. 1-2)



Moses and the children of Israel obey: And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. (vs. 7, my italics)



The slaying continues in verse 8. Then in verse 9, the children of Israel take captive all the Midianite women and children, confiscating as well "the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods." Eventually, the captives are brought before Moses, who condemns to death all the male children and all the unvirginal women:  Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (vs. 17)



Moses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:

Now this is taken from your own link... and yeaa anychrisitan will call it lies and not correct blah blah..........but pick up a bible..reading the OT..its filled with horror...and if you wish to dig into those verses in the bible that the author was  talking about..feel free...and hey why not complain to the author??  Honestly Karlis I thought if you wanted to prove your own points, you should have used a sourse that doesnt make your ideas look wrong....the idea is to look up sourses that doesnt make you look wrong LMAO... but I loved how you did it...when you 1st posted the info from that web page, you copied and pasted from that link what you wanted and you left out the link source itself....prolly htinking I wouldnt notice and ask....if you did...ohh man where you backing the wrong horsePosted Image

Karlis my point is...mankind back then did sexually molest little children  just like mankind does in todays world...





Edited by Beckys_Mom, 01 December 2009 - 12:07 PM.

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#120    Karlis

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 12:37 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 01 December 2009 - 11:59 AM, said:

Once again from the link you gladly provided............and if anyone else cares to click on your link they will read this...which BTW just looks like a bunch of opinions from someones blog...and you call that a reliable source eh? you must have thought it was...honestly Karlis..you should have looked for a more educational website to back up your claims not some blog of opinions... and if you scroll to the bottom of the page you will see the author of the entire thing is - Glen Miller   <-------all of what you tried to use as evidence came from a guy called glen miller!!!!!!.....and that is supposed to prove you were right? really?.....................so if I go into non chrisitan web sites and post stuff written by other that would make me right too? Posted Image


"Speaking of which, isn't this the same God who commanded the genocide of the Midianites? The same God who commanded the Israelites to slaughter all Midianite males (including infants) and all adult Midianite women? The same God who commanded that the young girls be tested for virginity and given to their captors as sex-slaves?



"In Numbers 31:15-18, after his soldiers had killed all of the men among the Midianites, Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops. Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns. If genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is a war crime, then this act of Moses was clearly a war crime…What possible reason could Moses have given in order to justify this horrendous act of genocide? After all, wasn't he the great "law giver"? He claimed that Yahweh, the God of Israel, ordered him to do this, because the Midianites worshiped a deity named Baal Peor. The Midianites felt that Baal Peor was nature's god, the creator of the universe, whereas the Israelites believed that their god Yahweh was the creator. .. So, in effect, what we have here is a demonization of those people who refer to the creator by a different name. These people are accused of worshiping a false god.


First, he orders Moses to lead Israel in a war against the Midianites:  And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites... (vss. 1-2)



Moses and the children of Israel obey: And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. (vs. 7, my italics)



The slaying continues in verse 8. Then in verse 9, the children of Israel take captive all the Midianite women and children, confiscating as well "the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods." Eventually, the captives are brought before Moses, who condemns to death all the male children and all the unvirginal women:  Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (vs. 17)



Moses then encourages his men to use the female children for (presumably) sexual pleasure:

Now this is taken from your own link... and yeaa anychrisitan will call it lies and not correct blah blah..........but pick up a bible..reading the OT..its filled with horror...and if you wish to dig into those verses in the bible that the author was  talking about..feel free...and hey why not complain to the author??  Honestly Karlis I thought if you wanted to prove your own points, you should have used a sourse that doesnt make your ideas look wrong....the idea is to look up sourses that doesnt make you look wrong LMAO... but I loved how you did it...when you 1st posted the info from that web page, you copied and pasted from that link what you wanted and you left out the link source itself....prolly htinking I wouldnt notice and ask....if you did...ohh man where you backing the wrong horsePosted Image

Karlis my point is...mankind back then did sexually molest little children  just like mankind does in todays world...




Beckys Mom, here is the first paragraph from the website:

The incident recorded in Numbers 31 is frequently mentioned as an illustration of God’s cruelty or  His “nature as a human fabrication of twisted minds”. The passage is a troubling one, for many reasons, but there are many misconceptions about what actually happened in the text as well. Consider some of the statements people have sent into me about this event:

If you are unable to understand what that means, and unable to follow the rest of the article about events in Numbers 31, the problem is yours, and no amount of explanations from any source will be satisfactory to you.

Edited by Karlis, 01 December 2009 - 12:39 PM.





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