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The Top One Reason Religion Is Harmful


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#166    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:50 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 11 December 2009 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yea spent a long time trying to format it but it simply would not break into quotes and replies. i tried highlighting your bits and it highlighted everything. Have no idea why.

See fullywired posts. It happens a lot. But it is the context of the angels visit and message which might be considered unusual.

I'm sure a lot of religious people convince themselves  it was all god and block out other possible reasons

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Then that is unfortunate. The way i see it is that I am able to accept a range of possibilities .

  
Range? You didnt bother to list a range..all you did was point to god!! Range my foot LOL

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A person who actively chosses to disbelieve, is not able to do this, and must restrict their opinion only to that which is known.


Ohhh riiight.. so I guess non believers have never turned over to god after they thought god saved them then eh?  

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I dont know. Ive never been able to comprehend this. i have logical extrapolations and possibilities based on logic, but no knowledge.

  


If a bunch of strangers came up to me on the streets out of nowhere, to tell me about their godly experiences, I would think they were freaks or in need of serious help, so I would throw them some change and tell them to find a shelter..and direct them to the nearest doctors clinic

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But remember its not just me. There are lots of people like me about,

I know Posted Image LOL

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But i dont necessarilty accept that the world i described is NOT real


Well I guess some people like to live in their heads..and dream on  lol

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My question is, how does your mind make clear to you which world is real?

  


Well I know the little day dreams I hold are only in my head and not realistic ..If I didnt know and couldn't tell the difference, I guess I would be rocking back and forth in a padded cell by now LOL

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In my mind i do not ever need to be sad angry depressed etc. I can always choose to be happy and empowered. no person canhurt me or make me do anything i dont choose to.

  
Same here, then reality strikes, and I react with what I hear and see, if it makes me happy, then I'm happy, if something I hear or see makes me sad, then I get sad...or funny posts like yours.. I laugh...those are emotions we cant control..they happen, run with the flow.. you can choke back  IE tears, but doesn't mean the sec a loved one has died, in your head you can be happy... not remotely possible


If I was like this, living in a lil dream world where I am always happy and nothing can harm me or annoy me and it a world I dream up, then my life in the real world must really suck for me to do that...

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Both humour and some sadness in this. Of course you should teach your children reality, but not neccesarily let reality limit or define them. Today kids are increasingly imprisoned by their parents fears, and lack of dreams. Children need to involve creative risktaking in their play. Today we dont even let kids play on play grounds without soft fall, let alone climb trees swing from ropes and swim in water holes.
Every human needs to balance risk and reward, and children require challenges to grow their physical and emotional skills


  

I allow my kid to be a kid... she uses her imagination all the time, creates her own games, and invites me to join in, we both play fairies ect.... because its SAFE...she even belives in Santa coming ect.. like any normal child at her age would.........but then there are real life dangers  (yes I said real life it mean real life and not something inside someones head)

Real life – I teach her not to do the following

Matches – dangerous, she knows not to play with matches.....

(your personal fav) - Jumping off my roof top arms flapping  - she knows she can be killed or seriously hurt

Bike – She knows never to drive her bike near busy roads, she knows cars are dangerous...but I still keep a close eye on her regardless

Roads  again she knows  (for I have it drummed into her) that the roads are not a safe place to play

Sharp objects – My 4 year old knows never to play with them..I still keep a close eye on her

Now if I wanted my Becky to use her imagination..and do it your way as you described before I would convince her that she was some kind of invincible super girl that cant get hurt ..thus leading to her........

.........Playing with sharp objects cutting herself to pieces...screaming the place down in agony!!

.........Trying to race the cars on the busy roads and on the freeway causing accidents!!

.........Setting herself and my house on fire from playing with matches!!

........Winding up seriously injured or killed from leaping off the top of my roof while chanting the Superman theme tune da \da da da daaaaaaaaaa  *SPLAT*!!!

........Where would I wind up? Well ether dead from my house fire or in some nut house for the rest of my natural life...judge would toss the book at me

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  It doesnt matter if i ever fly, the fun, and the thrill, is in the trying, and always believing i tis possible.


Ohh knock yourself out mate...let me know how it all goes....but tell me something Mr Walker

Did you ever play basket ball? Shoot hoops? And when you shot some good hoops, someone cried out – Mr Walker I BELIEVE YOU CAN FLY...............YOU GOT GAME MAN  <-and you took it seriously?  LMAO  just kiddingPosted Image

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Dont be silly. I always use my power of invisibility first.

  
Shame you didn’t use it on the boards LMAO I am just messing around.. lol I couldn’t resist

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But i find it sad and an indictment on our society that this is probably how people would react.

Ack thats just normal people ..with the normal reactions to dangerous things..  If they see some muppet  standing on a roof top flapping his arms and is about to leap off...they will react with shock horror... ignore it Mr Walker.. you just concentrate on flapping your arms and flying.. one day eh?? Posted Image

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Why should it be strange that anyone would climb on one and imagine flying from it.?

Imagination is one thing...but climbing up to attempt it is another..but hey let me know how it all goes for ya... if you can make it back in one piece




Edited by Beckys_Mom, 12 December 2009 - 03:13 AM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#167    Mr Walker

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:32 AM

View Postfullywired, on 11 December 2009 - 05:11 PM, said:

Might ?? I would consider it incredible


fullywired
Which is a  legitimate and rational BELIEF position for one without any contravening evidence.
Evidence, even if it is personal, naturally makes it a lot less incredible.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#168    Mr Walker

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:45 AM

[quote] name='Beckys_Mom' date='12 December 2009 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1260586242' post='3205028']
I'm sure a lot of religious people convince themselves  it was all god and block out other possible reasons[/quote]
But i wasnt religiouss. You are correct in some cases but on the other hand why would an open minded person reject out of hand , god as one possibility ?

[quote]Range? You didnt bother to list a range..all you did was point to god!! Range my foot LOL[/quote]
If you read thre history of my posts /expereinces you will see tha tonly over time did a range of ongoing expereinces lead mre logicall yto consider "god" as a possibility It was some time before ongoing communications confirmed this :)

[quote]
Ohhh riiight.. so I guess non believers have never turned over to god after they thought god saved them then eh? [/quote]

Im sure some have, an d others have lost faith in him because of personal tragedies or disappointments.


[quote]If a bunch of strangers came up to me on the streets out of nowhere, to tell me about their godly experiences, I would think they were freaks or in need of serious help, so I would throw them some change and tell them to find a shelter..and direct them to the nearest doctors clinic[/quote]
Ah but inm a lot softer than you are. I even give away my lunch money to hungry kids :)

[quote]I know LOL



Well I guess some people like to live in their heads..and dream on  lol
[/quote]

Realistically , we all live in our heads as much as in the physicla world Thats because we are thinking creatures.

[quote]Well I know the little day dreams I hold are only in my head and not realistic ..If I didnt know and couldn't tell the difference, I guess I would be rocking back and forth in a padded cell by now LOL[/quote]

Not necessarily, You might be sitting on a beach in some island paradise sipping rum and soaking up the sun.


[quote]Same here, then reality strikes, and I react with what I hear and see, if it makes me happy, then I'm happy, if something I hear or see makes me sad, then I get sad...or funny posts like yours.. I laugh...those are emotions we cant control..they happen, run with the flow.. you can choke back  IE tears, but doesn't mean the sec a loved one has died, in your head you can be happy... not remotely possible[/quote]
I tis possible to be in control of all your emotions. i dont know if its good or not but it is possible and it makes your life safer.

[quote]
If I was like this, living in a lil dream world where I am always happy and nothing can harm me or annoy me and it a world I dream up, then my life in the real world must really suck for me to do that...[/quote]


[quote]

[quote]

But the two worlds are the same so why would this be?
I allow my kid to be a kid... she uses her imagination all the time, creates her own games, and invites me to join in, we both play fairies ect.... because its SAFE...she even belives in Santa coming ect.. like any normal child at her age would.........but then there are real life dangers  (yes I said real life it mean real life and not something inside someones head)

Real life – I teach her not to do the following

Matches – dangerous, she knows not to play with matches.....

(your personal fav) - Jumping off my roof top arms flapping  - she knows she can be killed or seriously hurt[/quote]
Sounds like emminemtly sensible parenting to me. How about if she used a parachute?

Bike – She knows never to drive her bike near busy roads, she knows cars are dangerous...but I still keep a close eye on her regardless

Roads  again she knows  (for I have it drummed into her) that the roads are not a safe place to play

Sharp objects – My 4 year old knows never to play with them..I still keep a close eye on her

Now if I wanted my Becky to use her imagination..and do it your way as you described before I would convince her that she was some kind of invincible super girl that cant get hurt ..thus leading to her........

.........Playing with sharp objects cutting herself to pieces...screaming the place down in agony!!

.........Trying to race the cars on the busy roads and on the freeway causing accidents!!

.........Setting herself and my house on fire from playing with matches!!

........Winding up seriously injured or killed from leaping off the top of my roof while chanting the Superman theme tune da \da da da daaaaaaaaaa  *SPLAT*!!!

........Where would I wind up? Well ether dead from my house fire or in some nut house for the rest of my natural life...judge would toss the book at me



Ohh knock yourself out mate...let me know how it all goes....but tell me something Mr Walker

Did you ever play basket ball? Shoot hoops? And when you shot some good hoops, someone cried out – Mr Walker I BELIEVE YOU CAN FLY...............YOU GOT GAME MAN  <-and you took it seriously?  LMAO  just kidding


Shame you didn’t use it on the boards LMAO I am just messing around.. lol I couldn’t resist


Ack thats just normal people ..with the normal reactions to dangerous things..  If they see some muppet  standing on a roof top flapping his arms and is about to leap off...they will react with shock horror... ignore it Mr Walker.. you just concentrate on flapping your arms and flying.. one day eh??


[b]Imagination is one thing...but climbing up to attempt it is another..but hey let me know how it all goes for ya... if you can make it back in one piece



[/quote]

Wifes gone to sit in car ready for a drive so ill have to finish this later

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#169    fullywired

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:01 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 13 December 2009 - 03:32 AM, said:

Which is a legitimate and rational BELIEF position for one without any contravening evidence.
Evidence, even if it is personal, naturally makes it a lot less incredible.

Evidence is the operative word here ,What you consider evidence is not considered evidence by others


fullywired

Posted Image  



"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)

#170    Mr Walker

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:48 PM

View Postfullywired, on 13 December 2009 - 04:01 PM, said:

Evidence is the operative word here ,What you consider evidence is not considered evidence by others


fullywired
  I dont accept that proposition. If i see a platypus, then that is evidence that it exists. It remains personal evidence, but it is evidence for the existence of a platypus. There are many personal evidences which are logical, scientifically acceptable, and yet not transferrable to a third person. You are speaking of evidences used to convince another , but to convince one rational, sane, person of any reality there needs to be a set of evidences available to that person.

Those evidences can be of the same nature as ones which are commonly perceived, yet apply only to an individual or a set of individuals. Thats just the way much of the world is.
In the experiences i relate, there are many sets of evidence, first that the experience was an external objective occurence, and secondly that it is unlikely to have a known scientific explanation.
I never attribute as real anything which does not have at least some forms of external verification, but i do attribute a different explanation for those occurences than others might becuase of the long and ongoing contextual nature of the experiences.
I dont know how you, or another, might react  or respond if exactly the same things happened to you, so i cant comment on that, but i dont believe that you reject all realities within your own expereince which are not independently confirmed.
No one who spends any time by them selves could stay sane if they did not know that what happened to them was real, regardless of whether it was witnessed or not.
You steadfastly continue to reject the truth of this for reasons within your own world view. I cant blame you for that , but you are incorrect.

Lets take a non religious example. Suppose one bright starry night, miles from anyone else  you saw a ufo land. It left marks in the soil which were there the next morning but had blown away wbefore you could get anyone back to the location. Suppose a human looking being came out of the ship and spoke to you mind to mind, telling you its story.Let us further suppose it told you some things about yourself tha tyou did not know but turned out to be true.

Would you accept the reality of you rown senses, or would you doubt them ANd then ask yourself why. Wha tis creating in you the rejection of an expereince tha tis quite possible even if highly improbable Why is your belief overwhelming the acceptance of your perceptions Why not trust those senses?

Or perhaps i have you wrong. Perhaps you would be able to accept the reality of such an experience. Perhaps it is merely the religious overtones in my experiences which  create an overwhelming reaction of disbelief.

For me, god is not a religious entity any more than another human because such an entity would rely on faith or belief  To me god is a physical facet of the known universe and something which must be lived with, accomodated and responded to like all physical forces.

I can understand why people would build religious beliefs around it, but for me that would be like building a religious belief around my wife or motor car.

Im happy, as an adult, to adopt a christian persona because i think it is a very appropriate and workable one,  but that does not mean i am religious in terms of faith or belief.

Edited by Mr Walker, 15 December 2009 - 01:02 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#171    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:57 PM

I know this reply is really late...but for several days I was snowed under with work load...I simply had no time to sit and post on a forum....I am only taking a break now that I have finish a load of work..but will be busy soon enough..i thought I may as well finish off were I was with you LOL...  ......speaking of snowed under.. we over here in Ireland are.....it has snowed non stop for the past 4 - 5 days...I think we are in for a white christmas whoohoooo

Anyhoo....

View PostMr Walker, on 13 December 2009 - 03:45 AM, said:

If you read thre history of my posts /expereinces you will see tha tonly over time did a range of ongoing expereinces lead mre logicall yto consider "god" as a possibility It was some time before ongoing communications confirmed this Posted Image


You listed your experiences allright, but never once have you ever listed other possible explainations Mr Walker..you only ever point to the one - GOD..nothing more

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  Ah but inm a lot softer than you are. I even give away my lunch money to hungry kids


So you implying that I wouldnt hand a hungry kid money? If you are and I said IF,I suggest you think again mate!!................as for stanger coming up to you on the streets to talk about the experiences, I do not believe a word of this Mr Walker....... only times strangers approach anyone on the streets is if they are  - Handing out the big issue  (charity news paper)... Begging for money...... looking for directions.........or asking the time...........that is it........not all of a sudden out of nowhere people you have never seen before all rush up to talk to you on the streets aobut religion and experiences I highly doubt that...but I guess some like to live in their heads...go figure LOL

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Realistically , we all live in our heads as much as in the physicla world Thats because we are thinking creatures.

  
No we don't.......we all day dream yes but realistically we think and act differently........ I mean IE - In your head you can fly without wings... but if you jumped off a cliff, fact is you will crash and splatter... so living out of your head is dangerous

You seem so confused with - Reality and Day Dreaming Mr Walker..... People don't live out of the day dreams in their heads...not if the day dreams aresnt fitting with reality...

IE - Lets say in your head you are invisible to everyone........but then comes reality and you walk down the street, a bunch of mad strangers come up and say - hey man wanna hear about my experiences?  <----------------obviously ref to reality (real world) you arent invisible...only in your head you are

So you can't live out of the day dreams you have created in your head...........unless they fit with the real world...you always get these two confused...you teach engish lessons.. what must you tell a pupil if they ask you what is the difference between reality and fantasy? what do you tell them?
From your previous posts on how you see your own real world where - Man cant go hungry, no cold nasty weather, no rain, man doesnt need water to survive, where you cant get sick, no dangerous animals ect.. <---not the real world as we know it........just your own imagination day dreams..and you class it as reality...that Mr Walker is fantasy......not reality...I cannot believe I needed to explain this to a school teacher, and I am not being ignorant, I am serious...

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Not necessarily, You might be sitting on a beach in some island paradise sipping rum and soaking up the sun.

  
Yes in reality I would be sitting rocking back and forth in a white padded cell...pretending im on an island  LMAO... there is a huge difference between pretending and living in your head with fantasy and the real world - reality........shame you havent grasped that yet

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  I tis possible to be in control of all your emotions. i dont know if its good or not but it is possible and it makes your life safer

Wrong, completely wrong Mr Walker......... IE if a loved one dies on you.. you cannot control your sad emotions.. you can put on a front yes, but deep down you will feel sad and its something you won't be able to control...you simply can't control feeling them...

If you were to show you were so happy because in your head you so want to be after hearing a loved one has passed away and deep down you felt so very happy  <--- people wouldnt think you were in touch with god at all......people would think there was something seriously wrong with you


Another thing Mr Walker...about morals....you claim they all come from the bible.. that is wrong..I sat and thought more about this, and recall back when I was just a kid and I had no real understanding of what the word - Incest meant...all I know is, that there was no way in hell I would have kissed my brother, I wouldnt even take my brothers hand crossing the street as a kid...the very thoughts of it made me shudder..and no way was I ever feeling the same for the rest of my family..eeww  <--to me thats what it felt like eeeww  and yet I never heard about incest back then, all I knew was my brother was icky and even if he touched my food, I would have kicked up a fuss and refused to eat it LMAO.
.................so it was plain to see that even though I never heard of the word and meaning of incest back as a child.. I still didint believe it was morallly right..........naturally felt it was morally wrong...like I said, long before I even heard of the word, let alone know it was taught as wrong in the bible.  Its the same with kissing other girls, I wouldnt have done it, because naturally to me I was only ever keen on boys, to me it wasn't natural to kiss a girl...but even so, I now do not believe that is sinful...just pointing out how i felt naturally as a kid..and how those things came naturally to me before i ever gained any understanding from a bible and further more, my parents never taught me it either, like i said, those feelings of what felt morally right and wrong at that time came directly from me and only me

Another thing is... man that wrote the bible and wrote down what was good ect... that itself is proof that back then long before your bible ever was written, they obviously lived by those good morals...so that too is solid proof that these morals would have still been here if the bible was written or not



Edited by Beckys_Mom, 21 December 2009 - 03:02 PM.

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If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#172    Mr Walker

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 11:53 AM

BM i respect your views and it is you who have to live by them. I could not live by them just as you could not live by mine

Thus, for you, i am not going to be critical of the way you think or see the world even though i could not live that way.

My world, since childhood, has encompassed a greater reality than the mundane existence of many people. Thus i see the world as a very differnt place to you In my real world, ghosts angels and god are real physical things and people have abilities which as yet are not accepted by or explained by science.

In my world this is not fantasy but reality. In my world, since i was a child, my mind has controlled my emotions; first to elieminate fear, and later to eliminate most negative feelings. This can be done and taught without any magic or mysticism, using pure scientific knowledge on the nature of thought emotion instinct and behavioural responses. But a mystical element, as used in the east, does offer an alternate approach .
What i call the holy spirit is a real physical force which can enter and change a person and give them abilities not possess by most people. Others might call this cosmic consciousness but it is just as real what ever it is called.
The more one has knowledge of the physiology and psychology of the brain and the nature of thought and sapience, the more one becomes aware of how complex it is, and how much of what humans are is determined from that inner world.

The more one has knowledge of science the more one realises wha tis potentially possible According to physics it is possible for a man to walk through a solid wall. it is jus thighly unlikely. Whether a man choses never to try this, or continually to try to walk through walls actualy speaks to the nature of the man rather than the nature of reality.

I am a man who believes he can fly. I have flown by plane, glider, hang glider, and paraglider in the wakiong world. In the dream world i have flown by every means imaginable ANd in the world between the waking and the sleeping, i have flown around the world, and all over the world, to see and visit peole and places through the power of thought alone.

None of this affects my sanity , my relationship to the physical world, or my work and relationships with other humans, except to add different dimensiond to all these things.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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