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#16    Stormcrow

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM

At least The Da Vinci Code was well written. There's a difference between writing that's easy to read, and writing that reads like a 13 year old's first attempt at fan fiction.

What's so bad about Harry Potter? HP has morals and advice to live by. I had a friend, a retired nun in her 60s, that loved Harry Potter for the messages he gave to the world. She told me once that she couldn't understand why people (other Christians) couldn't accept Harry, because the message he had to give the world (love, acceptance, loyalty) was stronger than any of the darkness. Anything bad that Harry faced was conquered with love, REAL love. Harry teaches children more than Twilight could ever could. So what's weirder, 40+ year old moms screaming over a 17 year old, or a 60+ nun praising Harry for his strength over poverty? (And besides, Harry Potter isn't a romance. Not in the slightest.)

What does Twilight have? Abuse, obsession...? Consider this list of things that Twilight encourages and/or views as being positives in a human being or in a relationship:

- Beauty is what is important. Outer appearance is the only meaningful thing in a human being, personality, opinion, or the makings of the inner mind have nothing to do with friendships or relationships or being human at all. Bella falls "in love" with Edward before she even knows who he is, and becomes utterly obsessed with his physical characteristics.
- Arranged "marriages" and child brides (imprinting), or pedophilia. Jacob becomes obsessed with Bella's child to the point of planning his marriage to her even before she can think for herself.
- Controlling behavior. Edward doesn't want or allow Bella to visit her friends or family. For one example, he removes the battery from her car so that she can't.
- Stalking. Bella follows Edward's every move, even though he expresses dislike for her and doesn't want her around. Vise versa, after the relationship is engaged, Edward stalks Bella and breaks into her house to watch her sleep at night without her knowing or consent.
- Teenage pregnancy. Yes, eighteen is still a teenager. "Legal adult" doesn't cut it. Most eighteen year-olds do not have enough worldly experience to take care of a child; let alone the maturity to do so.

A couple of other things that Twilight sees as being big positives in a relationship:

- "Real" men are violent predators that women tempt.
- "Real" men are the decision makers.
- Your husband/boyfriend is worthy of worship.

The book is also very demeaning to women. Women have been viewed as unequal to men for centuries, it wasn't until the 1920s that women were given the right to vote. Even today, many women are treated as inferiors. America is the only developed nation to have NOT ratified the CEDAW (Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women).

So, all the women out there, let's go ahead and thank Twilight for bringing us back to the 1900s, when women couldn't think for themselves.

- Women are chattel.
- Weakness is prized in women.
- A woman must lessen herself for her spouse.
- A woman does not have a voice in a relationship; all decision making is done by the man.
- Women tend to be taken over by base instincts and it is up to the man to keep her under control. (See the non-sex scenes in the book and movie.)

(Do want to thank Nibs, she made mention of a lot of that before I ever could.)

Edited by Ebonykrow, 04 December 2009 - 08:38 PM.


#17    HerNibs

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:53 PM

View PostEbonykrow, on 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

At least The Da Vinci Code was well written. There's a difference between writing that's easy to read, and writing that reads like a 13 year old's first attempt at fan fiction.

What's so bad about Harry Potter? HP has morals and advice to live by. I had a friend, a retired nun in her 60s, that loved Harry Potter for the messages he gave to the world. She told me once that she couldn't understand why people (other Christians) couldn't accept Harry, because the message he had to give the world (love, acceptance, loyalty) was stronger than any of the darkness. Anything bad that Harry faced was conquered with love, REAL love. Harry teaches children more than Twilight could ever could. So what's weirder, 40+ year old moms screaming over a 17 year old, or a 60+ nun praising Harry for his strength over poverty? (And besides, Harry Potter isn't a romance. Not in the slightest.)

What does Twilight have? Abuse, obsession...? Consider this list of things that Twilight encourages and/or views as being positives in a human being or in a relationship:

- Beauty is what is important. Outer appearance is the only meaningful thing in a human being, personality, opinion, or the makings of the inner mind have nothing to do with friendships or relationships or being human at all. Bella falls "in love" with Edward before she even knows who he is, and becomes utterly obsessed with his physical characteristics.
- Arranged "marriages" and child brides (imprinting), or pedophilia. Jacob becomes obsessed with Bella's child to the point of planning his marriage to her even before she can think for herself.
- Controlling behavior. Edward doesn't want or allow Bella to visit her friends or family. For one example, he removes the battery from her car so that she can't.
- Stalking. Bella follows Edward's every move, even though he expresses dislike for her and doesn't want her around. Vise versa, after the relationship is engaged, Edward stalks Bella and breaks into her house to watch her sleep at night without her knowing or consent.
- Teenage pregnancy. Yes, eighteen is still a teenager. "Legal adult" doesn't cut it. Most eighteen year-olds do not have enough worldly experience to take care of a child; let alone the maturity to do so.

A couple of other things that Twilight sees as being big positives in a relationship:

- "Real" men are violent predators that women tempt.
- "Real" men are the decision makers.
- Your husband/boyfriend is worthy of worship.

The book is also very demeaning to women. Women have been viewed as unequal to men for centuries, it wasn't until the 1920s that women were given the right to vote. Even today, many women are treated as inferiors. America is the only developed nation to have NOT ratified the CEDAW (Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women).

So, all the women out there, let's go ahead and thank Twilight for bringing us back to the 1900s, when women couldn't think for themselves.

- Women are chattel.
- Weakness is prized in women.
- A woman must lessen herself for her spouse.
- A woman does not have a voice in a relationship; all decision making is done by the man.
- Women tend to be taken over by base instincts and it is up to the man to keep her under control. (See the non-sex scenes in the book and movie.)

(Do want to thank Nibs, she made mention of a lot of that before I ever could.)


Hmmm...came in to post a rant but I see that EK has it covered.

:tu:

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#18    Rosewin

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM

View Postkurethmu, on 04 December 2009 - 07:07 PM, said:

See, this is what I don't understand.  I think Meyer was a Lit Major.  That's very strange that someone who's read so much is such a bad writer at times.  I'm glad to see the above article, now people can enjoy one of the greatest novels ever written.

It is great you are glad and I am going to have to agree with StoneAgeQueen. It is written rather simply for mass accessibility. This is not necessarily a bad thing and it can be seen as quite condescending to telling Twilight fans to go read something better. There are many books written targeting different demographic groups and one would not tell a child to not read a children's book and instead pick up one of the classics regardless of what anyone else was reading at that age.

Many also like Twilight including those who regularly read more difficult material. It is not an agreed fact she is a bad writer. I see nothing truly terrible with her writing and grew up reading, Anne Frank Diary by 8, encyclopedia set by 10, lots of other books but that is really beside the fact. Twilight is not high literature thus should not be derided for not being so. It was written with a specific audience in mind but has captured the hearts and minds far beyond that target audience.

Twilight might not be written as well as Harry Potter but the that does not always mean well liked. It is likely S Meyer poured her soul into Twilight which is where the magic comes from.

View PostEbonykrow, on 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

At least The Da Vinci Code was well written. There's a difference between writing that's easy to read, and writing that reads like a 13 year old's first attempt at fan fiction.

Still many like it regardless of such an opinion. Does she even have a history of writing fan fiction or is this some kind of common complaint by those who themselves have read much fan fiction written by 13 year old's thus are able to compare?

View PostEbonykrow, on 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

- Beauty is what is important.

Many believe beauty to be quite important so Meyer is not alone. Nothing wrong with beautiful people or celebrating the fact either.

View PostEbonykrow, on 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

- Your husband/boyfriend is worthy of worship.

Just as much as a wife/girlfriend is worthy of being worshipped back. At least I would imagine this makes for the best type of marriages. I want to be adored times infinity!

View PostEbonykrow, on 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

So, all the women out there, let's go ahead and thank Twilight for bringing us back to the 1900s, when women couldn't think for themselves.

Women from the 1900s are quite appealing, at least to me. I like old fashioned. I am sure there were many strong marriages back then regardless of how society acted. Supposedly we have all these social rights today but marriages are failing and truth be told there are not many women out there I would want to be married to because they are just not 'womanly' to me and not even 'girlish' either. I am glad my wife is old fashioned. A few of us would have liked it better back then, not because society was better, but because people were not as wrapped up as much in society as they were in just everyday ordinary living like some folks tend to do and enjoy.

Edited by Rosewin, 04 December 2009 - 09:26 PM.


#19    StoneAgeQueen

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:22 PM

View PostEbonykrow, on 04 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

At least The Da Vinci Code was well written.

The Da Vinci code was terribly written.  :blink: At best it's something to pass the time at an airport then throw away once you reach your destination.

Edited by StoneAgeQueen, 04 December 2009 - 09:22 PM.


#20    Stormcrow

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:38 PM

View PostHerNibs, on 04 December 2009 - 08:53 PM, said:

Hmmm...came in to post a rant but I see that EK has it covered.

:tu:

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One step ahead. :D

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

It is great you are glad and I am going to have to agree with StoneAgeQueen. It is written rather simply for mass accessibility. This is not necessarily a bad thing and it can be seen as quite condescending to telling Twilight fans to go read something better. There are many books written targeting different demographic groups and one would not tell a child to not read a children's book and instead pick up one of the classics regardless of what anyone else was reading at that age.

Then I guess I've never graded work handed in by 13 year olds before. :( I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not saying they need to go pick up Shakespeare, but I am saying that Meyer can't write. Great, people want to read something simple, but WHY are they all, "OMG Myer is teh best weriter VERRRRR!!!!!"? She's supposed to have a degree in English, but I don't know how she even managed to pass her first writing class. :/

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Many also like Twilight including those who regularly read more difficult material. It is not an agreed fact she is a bad writer. I see nothing truly terrible with her writing and grew up reading, Anne Frank Diary by 8, encyclopedia set by 10, lots of other books but that is really beside the fact. Twilight is not high literature thus should not be derided for not being so. It was written with a specific audience in mind but has captured the hearts and minds far beyond that target audience.

Are you also an English major and an author? It's not agreed upon by readers, but I'm not aware of any respectable author that believes Meyer can write.

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Twilight might not be written as well as Harry Potter but the that does not always mean well liked. It is likely S Meyer poured her soul into Twilight which is where the magic comes from.

She didn't just pour her soul--well. You already know where I stand on that. :tu:

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Still many like it regardless of such an opinion. Does she even have a history of writing fan fiction or is this some kind of common complaint by those who themselves have read much fan fiction written by 13 year old's thus are able to compare?

Like I said, I've gone through papers by thirteen year olds before. I used to assist in a few of my English classes in high school, so I know what a kid's writing looks like. It looks like Twilight.

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Many believe beauty to be quite important so Meyer is not alone. Nothing wrong with beautiful people or celebrating the fact either.

Well, there is a problem when that's ALL you care about.

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Just as much as a wife/girlfriend is worthy of being worshipped back. At least I would imagine this makes for the best type of marriages. I want to be adored times infinity!

I'll just phone up your wife and let her know you want to be treated like a god, okay? That's generally what the word "worship" is intended to describe.

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Women from the 1900s are quite appealing, at least to me. I like old fashioned. I am sure there were many strong marriages back then regardless of how society acted. Supposedly we have all these social rights today but marriages are failing and truth be told there are not many women out there I would want to be married to because they are just not 'womanly' to me and not even 'girlish' either. I am glad my wife is old fashioned. A few of us would have liked it better back then, not because society was better, but because people were not as wrapped up as much in society as they were in just everyday ordinary living like some folks tend to do and enjoy.

Again, been through this too. It isn't about the style of the 1900s, it's about the beliefs of a woman's rights.

View PostStoneAgeQueen, on 04 December 2009 - 09:22 PM, said:

The Da Vinci code was terribly written.  :blink: At best it's something to pass the time at an airport then throw away once you reach your destination.

How so? Awful typos, run-ons, dreadful repetition, with tons of purple prose to fill in all of the places that are missing action and genuine thought?

Edited by Ebonykrow, 04 December 2009 - 09:39 PM.


#21    UltraThunderMan

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:42 PM

View PostRosewin, on 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

It is great you are glad and I am going to have to agree with StoneAgeQueen. It is written rather simply for mass accessibility. This is not necessarily a bad thing and it can be seen as quite condescending to telling Twilight fans to go read something better. There are many books written targeting different demographic groups and one would not tell a child to not read a children's book and instead pick up one of the classics regardless of what anyone else was reading at that age.

Many also like Twilight including those who regularly read more difficult material. It is not an agreed fact she is a bad writer. I see nothing truly terrible with her writing and grew up reading, Anne Frank Diary by 8, encyclopedia set by 10, lots of other books but that is really beside the fact. Twilight is not high literature thus should not be derided for not being so. It was written with a specific audience in mind but has captured the hearts and minds far beyond that target audience.


Condescending or not, when people say that it is a great book but haven't read anything better, it gets under my skin.  It's great because they have nothing to judge it against and then will fiercely defend their opinion.  Again, I am talking about the first book and only that one, I haven't read any other ones.  If you are reading more difficult material or have read classics or great literature, then you have to understand what I'm talking about.  I called her a bad writer sometimes because she makes such novice mistakes, mistakes you won't see any lit major with decent abilities make.  But she's graduated with that degree so she should be beyond making them.  At the very least her editor messed up even letting the book get made that way.  But I guess that point is meaningless now because everyone will buy it anyhow.


#22    Rosewin

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:47 PM

People only fiercely defend their decision when one fiercely attacks it. I am not going to waste my time debating first time readers their opinion on other titles when they have only read one lol but I can understand why some simply hate the hype.

Edited by Rosewin, 04 December 2009 - 10:10 PM.


#23    Drago

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 10:32 PM

It's not hating the hype, Rosewin.  You seem to think we have negative opinions of Twilight specifically because of all the hype surrounding it.  This is the opposite of the truth.  The hype only bothers us because there is SO MUCH hype for something so incredibly, astonishingly mediocre.  Were Twilight up to average standards, we wouldn't give a damn if it got hyped like the Blair Witch Project got hyped.  But Twilight isn't up to average standards - if you look up 'Mediocre' in the dictionary, you'll find "# - See Twilight".

And what bothers me the most isn't even the questionable content of the books.  I've read worse.  A series called The Lives of the Mayfair Witches, by Anne Rice.  These stories are nausea-inducing and sickening on levels Meyer dare not even aspire to (As one of the weakest examples of 'o_0' moments in those stories, in the first one we're introduced to a thirteen year old girl, who frankly states that she didn't lose her virginity - she demolished it.  Years ago.  Thoughout the series she uses seduction to try to get her way.)

What bothers me the most is that Meyer wrote something mediocre and simple, she purposefully wrote down to her target audience - and they're obsessed with it.  She purposefully wrote a story in a manner that makes it the literary equivalent of Hamburger Helper, and almost an entire generation of girls are eating it up when they have the option of something better.

It doesn't just bother me, it disturbs me.

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#24    Stormcrow

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 10:48 PM

I don't even think "disturbs" quite cuts it for me.


I don't like Anne Rice either, but I can say that her audience isn't 12, 13, and 14 year old girls. Her audience is much, much older, she can write whatever the hell she wants and her readers aren't going to be like, "OOHHH I should go do this!" (Still, I don't support her or her books. Just saying that the only thing different between Rice and Meyer is the audience in this case.)

Edited by Ebonykrow, 04 December 2009 - 10:50 PM.


#25    Drago

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 10:58 PM

Well, that and writing skill.  I'm not calling her a skilled writer, but Rice is definitely better with the pen.  I've called Meyer a Deranged Rice Fanficcer before, and meant it.

Plus Rice herself kind of bothers me.  She threatens to sue any fanfic site that hosts fanfics of her stories.  This is the woman who got her start writing BDSM ero-fanfics of Sleeping Beauty, for Christ's sake.  Slightly hypocritical.  I hope Charles Perrault haunts her mercilessly for it.

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#26    Stormcrow

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 11:28 PM

Oh, Rice is a huge hypocrite. Doesn't surprise me in the least. Said she was going to quit writing about vamps because of her new religion, but last year in an interview with Time she said she was gonna again.

But I've never read Rice, just watched thirty minutes of Queen of the Damned and was like... ew.

Edited by Ebonykrow, 04 December 2009 - 11:28 PM.


#27    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:39 AM

another topic about twilight ! yeaaahhhhh!


#28    UltraThunderMan

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 01:07 AM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 05 December 2009 - 12:39 AM, said:

another topic about twilight ! yeaaahhhhh!

Yep yep, I wanted input from fans.  But strangely there haven't been a very many.


#29    Corp

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 01:21 AM

View PostMoon Minion, on 04 December 2009 - 05:56 PM, said:

I want total honesty here boys...if the tables were turned and it was about a normal guy who met said female vampire who was stunning, had it all as far as physicality goes anyway...the looks, the bod and to top it off she is rich and seriously only has eyes for you, and may turn you immortal...just curious, does that appeal to you?

To be total honest that would appeal to me very much. But when she:

- breaking into my house to watch me sleep
- follows me around
- won't let me see my friends
- makes decisions about my life against my wishes
- implies that she killed people in her 'experimental' phase
- states several times that she wants to kill me

That's when I'd say enough is enough. But then I'd likely not faint every week, would be able to think clearly when she's around, and wouldn't need to be carried everywhere.

Needless to say a health relationship is not based on one partner not killing the other.


:)

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#30    Rosewin

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 03:00 AM

View Postkurethmu, on 05 December 2009 - 01:07 AM, said:

Yep yep, I wanted input from fans.  But strangely there haven't been a very many.

Not many will choose to enter such shark infested waters.

+ i have also added anne rice to my reading list





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