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3D-models of Puma Punku stone blocks


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#16    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 05:35 PM

View PostFramling, on 15 September 2011 - 12:17 AM, said:

I know they're red sandstone -all the bigger ones anyway. The entire feat is still a mystery to me.

Personally I think that Sacsayhuamán is a greater mystery, but no one ever mentions it.


#17    lightly

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 09:32 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 September 2011 - 05:35 PM, said:

Personally I think that Sacsayhuamán is a greater mystery, but no one ever mentions it.

I started a topic about that type ,and size, of stonework once,  but no one seemed mystified then.
This was the first response i got   :lol:  

Quote

What do you need explained? Do you think the Inca were too stupid or too primitive to cut stone well, or are you going to try to convince us that your some manner of expert stonecutter and you /know/ it couldn't have been done by them with the tools available? I wasn't aware craftsmanship was an insoluble mystery.

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#18    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:32 PM

View Postlightly, on 18 September 2011 - 09:32 PM, said:

I started a topic about that type ,and size, of stonework once,  but no one seemed mystified then.
This was the first response i got   :lol:

You started a thread that lasted for 9 pages, lol.

http://www.unexplain...csayhuaman&st=0


#19    lightly

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 11:22 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 September 2011 - 10:32 PM, said:

You started a thread that lasted for 9 pages, lol.

http://www.unexplain...csayhuaman&st=0


Yup,   like i said, no one seemed mystified in the least.     The only other topic i started lasted far less pages  :lol: .

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#20    Dragonwind

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 03:53 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 18 September 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

would you mind elaborating what you mean by "hard" or "soft" metals ?
mind letting us know who this "two of australia's best masons" are ?
For sandstone I used to use a plain steel chisel - that is what I'd call a hard metal. I never really carved much granite but Ive seen carbide tipped chisels before. They are a hard chisel though. I just remember being told to use a softer metal for granite (manganese?) but that could be wrong or for a particular effect. I suspect ancient egypt had iron tools. Maybe they even knew about the properties of diamonds. Larger cuts could be made by splitting rather than sawing.

Chris Bennets from Ishi Buki and Richard Stutchbury. They are sculptors, not really Masons I suppose, but do some good work. Especially Chris. He carves lots of animals and native flora including huge frogs and lizards that are very cool and has a massive relief in the Parliament House.

I only ever did small sculptures or modified natural rocks out in the bush. To do bigger work you need kanga's (small jackhammers).

Some weathered sandstone is so soft you can carve it really easy though with rasps!


#21    third_eye

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 05:19 AM

View PostDragonwind, on 19 September 2011 - 03:53 AM, said:

For sandstone I used to use a plain steel chisel - that is what I'd call a hard metal. I never really carved much granite but Ive seen carbide tipped chisels before. They are a hard chisel though. I just remember being told to use a softer metal for granite (manganese?) but that could be wrong or for a particular effect. I suspect ancient egypt had iron tools. Maybe they even knew about the properties of diamonds. Larger cuts could be made by splitting rather than sawing.

Chris Bennets from Ishi Buki and Richard Stutchbury. They are sculptors, not really Masons I suppose, but do some good work. Especially Chris. He carves lots of animals and native flora including huge frogs and lizards that are very cool and has a massive relief in the Parliament House.

I only ever did small sculptures or modified natural rocks out in the bush. To do bigger work you need kanga's (small jackhammers).

Some weathered sandstone is so soft you can carve it really easy though with rasps!

Thanks, it all boils down to the final 'look' or feel of the finished design/sculpture
With granite or the harder rocks you would use the softer metal tools because of long term damage to your joints, not because the rock is better to cut with the softer metal tools, as with the softer rocks, harder metal tools makes for better use in the long term as you would spend less time pounding it.
So the use of the metal tools depends on the kind of work that is needed, the kind of tools for the right kind of job, not stone, if you used soft metal tools on hard rocks you'll loose more tools if not your joints before the sculpture is done.

I like the works of Ishi Buki, :tu:

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#22    Banksy Boy

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 10:27 AM

Thank you suppling those names Dragonwind. :tu:

I've read so much tosh on this site from people who should know better when it comes to stone work, some of which is laughable at the very least and not warrented a reply, so I thought I'd to call your bluff. :P Sorry :P

Am at work atm so will reply to you more fully when I have more time.  :tu:


#23    Banksy Boy

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 10:00 PM

View PostDragonwind, on 19 September 2011 - 03:53 AM, said:

I never really carved much granite but Ive seen carbide tipped chisels before. They are a hard chisel though. I just remember being told to use a softer metal for granite (manganese?) but that could be wrong or for a particular effect.

Sorry my reply has taken a quite a while, but I needed to speak to the ol' man, a retired and 'old school' stone mason, before replying to your post :)

It's taken me a while, due to the fact that I need to pick the right moment when asking him a question about stone work as any reply can last about hour and at points can go way above my head :lol:.

Needless to say, although retired for quite a few years now, he still lives and breathes stone and the art/skill of stone masonry. When it comes to stone work there isn't much he doesn't know be it ancient or modern-day techniques. In fact ancient techniques are still used to this day for those that are willing to pay the price ( mainly heritage sites ) although those skills are quickly eroding due to, amongst other things,  bad techniques/training, the use of air tools and machines, pay, costs and people that are actually capable of doing the work.

As already mentioned, the ol' man is now retired having spent over 40 years bashing the stuff. He has had the privilege of working on many well known buildings within the UK such as St Pauls Catherdal, Westminster Abbey to name but a few including world heritage sites such as Canterbury Cathedral etc.

With reference to my question regarding asking for names, there are a few of his previous trainees that have emigrated to Australia who are capable of top quality work by hand. Hence why the last time he heard from them they were working on governmental and other important historical sites within Australia.

To reply to your quote, these days to carve granite by hand you need tempered steel ( yet another disappearing skill to produce correctly ) or carbide tipped tools. Why you would choose to use anything softer in this day and age is beyond his comprehension. Not only will granite ruin softer metals within a very short period, the cost of replacement tools and time to produce a piece of work would be prohibitive gaining nothing on the finished article.

He now suffers from 'White finger' due to the constant vibration through the use hand tools and later day air tools. Unfortunately this can be the nature of the beast in this line of work and goes with the territory .............all his joints are still fine though having used suitable tools for the job. :tu:

I posted this in another thread if you missed it. Here's a guy hand carving granite, it comes in three parts and hopefully proves my point.  :tu:  



Edited by Banksy Boy, 08 October 2011 - 10:15 PM.


#24    DKO

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:49 AM

Just watched 'Ancient Aliens' on the History Channel, they describe these being made of granite and diorite. That channel gives out a lot of false information.

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#25    Banksy Boy

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:04 AM

Well, there is a guy who appears on Ancient Aliens called Roger Hopkins who says he's been a Stone Mason for over 40 years IIRC.

In one of the programs he shows some of the granite work with perfect angles, shapes and inside cuts etc.

Why would a guy of his standing lie about the stone that is being shown?


#26    ShadowSot

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:09 AM

Quote

Well, there is a guy who appears on Ancient Aliens called Roger Hopkins who says he's been a Stone Mason for over 40 years IIRC.

So  he says.

Quote

Why would a guy of his standing lie about the stone that is being shown?
He's getting paid to show up on TV.

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#27    Banksy Boy

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:21 AM

Well it's not difficult to Google about him.

If you think you can produce that stuff by hand go give it a try....come back to me once you've finished your perfect piece of hand worked granite....no machines allowed  ;)


#28    Banksy Boy

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 05:19 PM

I know it's a little O/T but it's relevant to the link I posted above.

Some of you will be pleased to know that after 7 months of pure hard graft and toil, Ronald Rae has finally finished hand carving the baby elephant.   :w00t:  B)



Rather than talking a good job on the internet how granite can be worked and finishes that can be expected by hand, the man put his money where his mouth is and the skills that he has learnt over many years and created a master piece right before your very eyes, a fantastic piece of art made from granite. I wouldn't want to imagine where he'd like to stick his tungsten carbide chisel and club hammer at some of the comments on this and some of the other threads.  :lol:

I'll say that again for those that missed it the first time GRANITE, you know, that soft material the ancients never seemed to have a problem with and was able to somehow produce faultless pieces with perfect inside cuts, angles and surfaces however big or small :lol:  

Makes you think doesn't it.  :yes:

Well done that man !! :tu:

Edited by Banksy Boy, 10 October 2011 - 05:39 PM.


#29    Oniomancer

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:39 PM

View PostBanksy Boy, on 10 October 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

I know it's a little O/T but it's relevant to the link I posted above.

Some of you will be pleased to know that after 7 months of pure hard graft and toil, Ronald Rae has finally finished hand carving the baby elephant.   :w00t:  B)



Rather than talking a good job on the internet how granite can be worked and finishes that can be expected by hand, the man put his money where his mouth is and the skills that he has learnt over many years and created a master piece right before your very eyes, a fantastic piece of art made from granite. I wouldn't want to imagine where he'd like to stick his tungsten carbide chisel and club hammer at some of the comments on this and some of the other threads.  :lol:

I'll say that again for those that missed it the first time GRANITE, you know, that soft material the ancients never seemed to have a problem with and was able to somehow produce faultless pieces with perfect inside cuts, angles and surfaces however big or small :lol:  

Makes you think doesn't it.  :yes:

Well done that man !! :tu:
The test here is in the failure, not the success. It's all well and and use modern tools and show the trials and tribulations thereof.
Now let's see him use primitive tools and methods and not succeed. You know, unlike Jean-Pierre Protzen in the course of his experimental research.

http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-1-of-6

http://www.pbs.org/w...s/2404inca.html

Sure, he used modern tools afterwords but only to expedite the work for TV.

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#30    Banksy Boy

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 09:28 PM

Now tell the viewers what type of stone that is in your link.





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