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Fenris Vs Falco: Theologys examined


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#31    Ozmeister

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Posted 12 June 2004 - 03:24 PM

QUOTE
OK Falco..... here is a hypotetical situation for you (Only sort of hypothetical as I had it happen to me) a young person (Say around 20) has known you for a while and seems more than a little impressed with the way you view the univers. You know they have been seeking the next step on their path.... they aproach you and ask "Teach me"...... how do you respond?


They will learn by the example you set for them. Let them learn by being around you. Unless you're spiritually mature enough to know how to go about teaching them, you will do them more harm than good.

The world doesn't need anymore gurus, it's screwd up enough now as it is. It's precisely why religious ideology/dogma has done more to hurt people than show them how to live their lives.

They will find their own path. No one can show it for them. Don't be afraid to proffer any feelings and philosophy you may have, but don't make it sound like instructions on the how-to and wherefor of life. Let them decide what to take in or reject. Just be their friend......in reality that's all you need to do.

Spiritual mentoring (or any form for that matter) takes great maturity and even more onerous responsibility......not only to the person whom you're the mentor to, but also to yourself. The interaction runs both ways and you can't escape that.




#32    Falco Rex

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Posted 12 June 2004 - 07:17 PM

Ozmeister covered my feelings on the subject pretty well. The only things I can add is that first I'd tell that person that being a teacher implies that I have facts to teach. All I have is theories and suppositions..
But to get a little further into it, I would have to know that person fairly well before I wanted to "Teach" my views to them. If you read my reply about how my theology effects my everyday life you'll realize just how easily it could be twisted to justify doing whatever you want, whenever you want. I'd want to know this hypothetical person well enough already to determine that they had at least some leaning towards responsibility and integrity.
My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type..

Well, you've stated already that this has happened to you. So how did you handle the situation?  


#33    Fenris

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 06:57 AM

Its happened a couple of times and both times (Albeit in diffrent ways) I've pointed out that they where looking for answers in the wrong place. Nobody else knows your relationship with the divine but yourself, in 'following' another you are mearly hiding from yourself, you may get distracted by the bell's and whistles of paraphanalia, ritual and organisation but unless you work within yourself you won't make any real theological progress, and that what realy counts when in comes to religion.

All to many people seek out a 'teacher' because they want to do anything except look honestly within themselves.... afraid of what they may find!

Plus the fact that I'm not a teacher..... I've done it when I've had to. I've been an assistant lecturor handling a class of ESM adults on the mundain side.... and had responcibilitys to teach the then current crop of neophites during my time with the coven.... and when I have to, I do a reasonably good job..... but I'm not a natural teacher, I'm not drawn to do so, I don't enjoy doing so (OK watching the faces of the Neo's when I was hammering home the traps and pitfalls of specific intent in 'magic' was sorta fun  devil.gif ).

QUOTE
My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type..


It was precisely the fact that you where obviously seeking your own answers rather than sheep-like following anothers dogma that made me think this would be a worthwhile excersie  original.gif

OK.... for his next trick, Falco will create the universe!.... erm... well rather, hopefully he will explain his views on the how and why of the universes origins cool.gif  

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#34    Venomshocker

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 07:21 AM

QUOTE
Nobody else knows your relationship with the divine but yourself, in 'following' another you are mearly hiding from yourself, you may get distracted by the bell's and whistles of paraphanalia, ritual and organisation but unless you work within yourself you won't make any real theological progress, and that what realy counts when in comes to religion.


Ah, man, that is an awsome statment.  thumbsup.gif
I reallly,really have to say I agree with you on that. That quote is goin down in my books. wink2.gif grin2.gif

Well put. thumbsup.gif


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#35    Falco Rex

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 11:20 AM

There's really not too much I can say on the creation of the universe,not having been there myself. Of the various theories I've heard so far I believe the Big Bang holds up pretty well.
If you want to give God any credit at all for this you might say that it was a divine spark that touched off the original explosion although it's not like you could set that opinion in stone.
Something had to get everything going however. I've yet to hear a satisfactory theory from science on what that may have been. When Mysticism fails we must turn to science, and when science fails we must turn back Mysticism. The Universe seems beautifully circular that way.
In time I'm sure scientists will be able to prove the hows and whys of the Universes' origins, and when they do I'll be happy enough to believe them. Until they do, "God started it off" is a good enough explanation for my limited mind.
Perhaps this wasn't a very good answer and if not I apoligize...
I tend to keep my thoughts pragmatic if I can. I can speculate on life after death and such because someday I'll die and find out if my theories bear out or not, but there's nothing I can do to witness the Universe being born so I don't spend too much time worrying about the whys of it..
I'm going to boomerang your question back at you. Since I had such a feeble post this time around I'd like to see your view on it, it's got to be better..
  


#36    Ozmeister

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 02:44 PM

The more I look at the beauty of the universe and the laws which govern it, the more I come to see that there is an intelligence behind it all. That doesn't mean the intelligence is necessarily interventionist or anything like what you read in most religious texts (which I think are explanations based in ignorance for the most part....as they have been, and are presently conceived). What it means is that this intelligence created (for want of a better word) this reality in order to experience existence as it is perceived here, and to evolve and grow. It is the fundamental guiding principle (or thought, if you will) behind it all. It knew what was needed to create a living reality, so it set about defining the parameters which would allow that to occur. It then let nature take its course, so far as the material aspects of the universe are concerned. Now that intelligence is present in everything......it is nature, but it's also more than nature. It's self awareness is evident in life itself. It's sentience is evident in all entities that are aware of their self awareness.......humans for example.

God is greater than the sum of all the parts, but the parts are all God, nevertheless. Of its sentience, though no one part can be God, they can know what it is to be like God.



#37    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 08:31 AM

Quite similar to Ozmeister except in one important respect.... I see no signs of inteligent thought behind it, just natural (Or super-nature) laws at work. It goes something like this....

I am an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with and if I start without enough then this builds up a strain in the natural system of how I work.... that strain triggers me to convert some of my infinate energy into more matter (So I will have enough to work with).....

Thus the material univers experiences a "BIG BANG" (Note, this is a natural reaction, not a 'thought')

Now my energy, in the material world, is the energy of life and thought. So part of the 'laws' that govern the universe I create is that where possible life will develop and that life will tend toward evolving into creatures which can not only live, but also think.

Over billions upon billions of years (Which is like an eyeblink to me... I am eternal and infinate) bacteria grows to algea, to plants, to multi-celled organisms, that hunt each other leading to evasions behaviour, which requires better hunters, which means creatures evolve which are better able to 'out think' how to catch  their prey and better hunted who can out think and avoid those hunters and so on, all the time raising the inteligence bar..... until creatures develop who are intelligent enough to break out of that cycle.... at this level they are intelligent to start thinking on a metaphysical level!

Physics tell us that energy can not be created, nor destroyed, just changed in form...... thinking and living, are part of the energy of the universe itself. The higher level you think and work at, the greater rate you transfer eaten matter back into life energy.

This is supported by the fact that the universe slowly gets less dense over time.... now this could also be explained by an expanding universe, or by there being less matter in the universe... probably IMO both are true. (There is also a pun in there about the more you think, the less dense you are, but I haven't had enough coffee yet  laugh.gif )

Now eventualy, you get to the stage where a great majority of the matter has been returned to its 'pure' energy state..... however you loose the amount for matter needed to sustain life in the material world, the system collapses. You run out of thinking beings able to work on the last of the matter!

Again I am an an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with...........

Etc. It has no memory and is not inteligent, it can not think one its own, it simply reacts according to the laws which govern it...... its this process being the meta-physical process behind the recuring big bang and expanding-contracting univers theory.

Its very much a 'work in progress', less my 'belief' than a best guess so far based on those things I do believe and I'll continue to question that best guess till I find a fundamental flaw in it where upon I'll modify it according to what I find. cool.gif

People who believe in 'God' tend to say "We where put here for a purpose" I agree we do have a purpuse (Though we happen naturaly rather than 'being put').... that perpose is to THINK as its the one thing that the divine can't do for itself.

I seem to have been mostly choosing the directions the discussion goes in, to avoid becoming some sort of unelected 'chairman', I'll pass the question setting baton on this occassion and see where Falco wants to lead us  original.gif  

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#38    Ozmeister

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 02:27 PM

The intelligence behind it all can be seen, if you know where to look and recognise it as such. Although it really depends on what you define as intelligence. However, you need to drop all preconceived notions of what intelligence is and look at it with a fresh mind.

The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there.

Given the nature of quantum mechanics, the chances of an universe occuring which has all the prerequisites for life, as ours does, is virtually nil. Why??.....because there is an infinite number of possible universes which can form from all the possible random quantum energy fluctuations. Most of which will have characteristics far from the optimum for life.....in fact most will be lifeless because in each universe there is an infinite set of possible characteristics whcih it can take on. However, whilst the possibilities for life bearing universes is slim, it's not zero and given the infinite numbers of universes and possibilities, there will be a very large number of universes which will have life in them. Now, you might say, well you've just shot your original premise in the foot. With all that infinity of possibilities, that life is here is due to random processes.....non intelligent ones.

But here's the clanger......given all that infinitesimal possible randomness, what was the function that set those possibilities in a life bearing universe such as ours to be so finely tuned, that even the slightest variation of those characteristics whcih make it up would render it lifeless......possible even matterless. Why, in experiment after experiment, does it appear that the mind is intimately connected to the fundamental workings of the universe at a subatomic level.....that the observer and the observed are not only connected causally but also experientially. Though it appears to be disconnected at a macroscale, this is an illusion, but it is one which is real and has measurable effects and consequences. What causes that apparent disconnection??. Why is the force of gravity so precisely balanced in its strength when compared to the other fundamental forces of nature such that if that balance was different by 1 part in 100 trillion, we wouldn't be here to talk about this. Why is a proton exactly 1836 times heavier than an electron. It could just as easily been 200 or 2000 times an electron's weight. Why can a simple mathematical equation (a fractal) generate all the repeatable patterns that we see in nature (snowflakes for example). How come we're even here to talk about this.....the Big Bang predicates that equal amounts of matter and antimatter should be produced on the breaking of the symmetry of the false vacuum that preceded Inflation (from the energy that was present in spacetime). There appears to have been 1,000,001 particles of matter for every 1,000,000 antimatter.

I could go on here, but I won't. Too much rambling as it is. However in my mind and experience, things are just a wee bit too contrived and convenient to be the result of a completely random and thoughtless act. As for paranormal forces (supernatural if you will), they don't exist. All forces, no matter what their origin, are a part of the order of things. It's only our (very) limited understanding of them which causes us to lable them as being "paranormal", "supernatural" etc. Even God is a part of the order of things.....we just don't see that because our "vision" is limited.

Edited by Ozmeister, 14 June 2004 - 02:30 PM.


#39    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 03:04 PM

QUOTE
The intelligence behind it all can be seen, if you know where to look and recognise it as such.


And I can equaly state that people who ascribe inteligence to such a natural system are guilty of projection and wishful thinking. I look and I see beauty, but no inteligence..... and I've looked pretty darn hard.

Its your opinion, fine, but don't try to make it a statement of fact because it most certainly isn't.

You say that the chances of it all working are remote.... I see that it works that way because its the only way it can work. Space in a bloody big place, the number of chances for things to develop toward life (IMO a natural drive of the basic, un-inteligent laws of the universe) on one planet or another are too many to count. Even if it is only possible in a fraction of one percent, how many millions upon millions of stars are there for that to be applied to? We only think this star is remerkable because its the one we evolved at, it could have just as easily been any number of other stars and it would have made little diffrence. If we had evolved orbiting a diffrent star we would have no doubt thought that equaly as remarkable and some would claim it so remarkable that it 'prooved' inteligent thought' behind the force of the universe.... they would be just as wrong as to what constitutes 'proof'

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#40    Chauncy

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 03:39 PM

QUOTE
The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there.


In what respect is this physical structure "too contrived"? One thing I've noticed with randomness is that the more random a system is, the more variables and the more 'ingredients' if you will, actually increase the odds of a specific result.

I would assume then that there is a specific point where randomness reaches a point of complexity that pattern actually forms randomly.

As far as earth or any life bearing planet is concerned these are as a result of this chaos produced pattern. Thats why we look for planets that revovle around Suns, it would be a logical conclusion in my opinion that these Sun orbiting planets have been rendered so by this chaos induced pattern and is really not subject to any theological interpretation but seems more like the environment that our theology exists in......in my opinion.

"Sasselov's team is not alone. Since 1995, teams of astronomers across the country have detected about 100 large planets zipping around stars in far-distant solar systems. The discoveries are the result of new, indirect methods that sense planets by carefully observing their stars." http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Dai...nets030224.html

As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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#41    Venomshocker

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 10:03 PM

Wow, that was an incredible explanation Ozmeister. Wow!! thumbsup.gif
That pretty much sums up alot of what I believe also. Incredible.

Fenris, and Chauncy. The possibilites of a life sustaining planet in a universe so large as ours, are intriguing. In fact I believe, ther is life outside our planet.

But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not. And I must agree with Ozmeister on this, the more you study this, and the more you look into it, the more contrived it seems.

Edited by Venomshocker, 14 June 2004 - 10:04 PM.

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#42    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 10:31 PM

I see nothing contrived about it... but having diffrent opinions on the matter is fine original.gif The world would be a boring place if we where all the same.


People once thought that eclipses where proof of an angry god.... but we now see the very rational, non-intelegent reasons for it... Life evolved as it did because thats the way it can and nature tends toward creating life.... no thought, just the effect it has.

And yes, I believe that given the magnitude of the universe it is inconsevable to me that there wouldn't be life on other planets. In fact it's highly unlikely that we evolved first (Some race has to be, but its a one chance in billions that its us). However I don't believe we have been visited by them..... You travel hundreds of light years and discover alien life on a distant planet.... So you scare a few yokles and fly off again?!?!?!? I don't think so. blink.gif


In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#43    Chauncy

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 10:36 PM

QUOTE
But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the matter/energy even existing. I mean we are here right. This fact and this fact alone make it entirely probable of life elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.

Now if you mean that life was created here and that was the end of this life rendering energy, then I would have to say that energy cannott be destroied so it must be somewhere.....it would seem also that since life is still created here on earth then this energy must still be active.

I may be misunderstanding what you mean though.  sad.gif  

As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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#44    Falco Rex

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 01:44 AM

I rather like the direction this thread is headed in now so I'd rather not shift the focus away to some other subject..
I tend to agree with Ozmeister and Venomshocker. Even zero speculation publications like Smithsonian are running articles on how the Universe seems to have a sentient purpose to the way it works.
While I agree with Chauncy to some extent in the fact that randomness will produce complex laws and patterns given time, randomness cannot sustain that pattern. If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time. As it is, even though things change they always work within the patterns that already exist. There really is nothing new under the sun. Science makes new discoveries all the time about the nature of the Universe and yet these discoveries only seem to add to our knowledge without changing the basis of existence itself..
While I don't think whatever the force we call "God" has an intelligence the way we percieve it.It certainly seems to me that there is indeed a "blueprint" of sorts behind it all...


#45    Chauncy

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 02:04 AM

QUOTE
randomness cannot sustain that pattern


I feel that there is no need to sustain the pattern once it comes about. Through all the random chaos a pattern is produced, say DNA, now once that DNA is produced as the pattern from chaos, it will continue on it's own.

If it does continue or not, is totally random after the pattern is created. So if it fails to continue then another pattern, theoretically, could be produced as a result of chaos and any other variables left from the previous pattern.

QUOTE
If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time.


There is I believe a basic formula that our universe obides, these patterns that bring life are a result of this formula. I see the product of this formula being the chaos or randomness and the patterns being a product of the product.  original.gif

The basic formula I see as unchanging.

As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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