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Is it all in your head?


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#376    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:24 PM

View PostS♥ ♥ ♥, on 13 January 2010 - 09:13 PM, said:

For me it does MM, perhaps its preference....

but honesty is the only way I roll...:w00t:

O.K. O.K. I respect that. I'm just not sold on the fact that people are intentionally lying about the issue. Maybe they are, I'm not sure. Imho he's just been ingrained into western culture now, real or not. Maybe one day there'll be a shift and that will no longer be true. But from our own respective view points, as far as religous views are concerned, I don't think the issue has any bearing upon us. Christians may find it more of a shocking revelation, if they do indeed come to that conclusion. It does, I think, from time to time have an effect on how we live our lives though.

Again! thanks for the conversation. That's the way I have always rolled. :D


#377    The Silver Thong

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:50 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 13 January 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

As far as your view on Jesus, does it matter whether he actually lived or not? If there's something you see as a positive, or a negative for that matter, in his real and or fictional life so be it. Even if someone were to view his life in a negative light, It's still a positive any way you slice it. Now they know what not to do in regards to their own life. As a non-Christian his historicity is irrelevant to me. I look up to Robin Hood and Paul Atreides too. All the same in my estimation.

Thanks for reading!

I think Jesus would be the most freakin coolest guy to hang with........... What? come on he has to be, right?

I don't think even atheists have any problem with Jesus, I think he "was" a damn good guy and I will defend Jesus and what he represents. However I will not stand for how people abuse Jesus and use him as a tool for personal gain or self delusion to justify actions that Jesus himself would cringe at. If he existed he was a noble man and does deserve respect. It's just that his name is used in so many ways that are so not him and I mean Christians that abuse him. They abuse him daily. I kinda feel bad for the guy even though he's the son of the most powerful "thing" we can imagine !!!

Edited by The Silver Thong, 13 January 2010 - 09:53 PM.

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The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#378    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:57 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 13 January 2010 - 09:50 PM, said:

I think Jesus would be the most freakin coolest guy to hang with........... What? come on he has to be, right?

I don't think even atheists have any problem with Jesus, I think he "was" a damn good guy and I will defend Jesus and what he represents. However I will not stand for how people abuse Jesus and use him as a tool for personal gain or self delusion to justify actions that Jesus himself would cringe at. If he existed he was a noble man and does deserve respect. It's just that his name is used in so many ways that are so not him and I mean Christians. They abuse him daily. I kinda feel bad for the guy even though he's the son of the most powerful "thing" we can imagine !!!

That's where I draw the line as well and what I meant by his story or life having an effect upon even non Christians. I don't know whether or not he was real. I don't know whether or not he's the son of the most powerful thing we can imagine lol. Maybe some people do. Either way, I think to appropriate his story as a reason to do harm to others, is to mis-understand his story entirely.

Thanks for reading again man!!!


#379    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:21 PM

View Postmarabod, on 13 January 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

As I said, any question deserves its answer! I do not know how did you formulate your question, which you emailed. But I know that if it was formulated like that "Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?" then they would've answered "no", unless they are believers (remember? Believers cannot operate in high sciences, but History is open for them). If you simply asked if Jesus existed, this is the case when the response would be a private opinion, as this question is not a scientific one.


All of what you just said is 100% correct

(and I normally disagree with you lol)

Here is what PA calls an historical figure......

A man that no one can say what he looks like or give a description of

Gospels that no sod knows who wrote them

No date as to when this person was born

And this man is seen as an historical figure....why?

Historical figures at least we have an idea what they looked like.. or when they were born AND any stories written we know the name of the authors

What makes it worse is some man called PAUL claims to have had visions aka DREAMS.. and an entire religion is based on following someone's dreams?Posted Image



Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 January 2010 - 10:22 PM.

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#380    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:29 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 13 January 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

That's where I draw the line as well and what I meant by his story or life having an effect upon even non Christians. I don't know whether or not he was real. I don't know whether or not he's the son of the most powerful thing we can imagine lol. Maybe some people do. Either way, I think to appropriate his story as a reason to do harm to others, is to mis-understand his story entirely.

Thanks for reading again man!!!


This is off topic.... what am I saying the entire debate on jesus ect is off topic.. the topic was meant to be - is it all in yuor head LOl

Anyhoo just wanted to add... you remind me of a guy that was once here... Peter Venkman...I have thought so for a while...your posts are very alike, thats why I say you REMIND me of him.. oh well just sayingPosted Image all is good

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#381    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:40 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 13 January 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

This is off topic.... what am I saying the entire debate on jesus ect is off topic.. the topic was meant to be - is it all in yuor head LOl

Anyhoo just wanted to add... you remind me of a guy that was once here... Peter Venkman...I have thought so for a while...your posts are very alike, thats why I say you REMIND me of him.. oh well just sayingPosted Image all is good

So Religion. All in your head or something real and tangible?

Religious stories - wherever and whichever religion they come from are very good fairy tales but why believe in them? Why is it ok to believe in them and not ok to believe in Santa Claus over the age of 10 years old? And whats the difference anyway?

IMO we don't need to believe but other people want us to so that they can control our reactions and get what they want.


The conversation is still on topic imho, based upon the op, and I look foward to Sheri's opinion on it as well!

Again, thanks for reading everyone!


#382    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:58 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 13 January 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

So Religion. All in your head or something real and tangible?



Religion isn't in my head, I dont believe in religion  the bible nor do I belong to any religious cult/faith

Question for me is... is god all in your head...and I say - YES darn straight..something needs to act as a space fillerPosted Image

Quote

Religious stories - wherever and whichever religion they come from are very good fairy tales but why believe in them? Why is it ok to believe in them and not ok to believe in Santa Claus over the age of 10 years old? And whats the difference anyway?
  
Kids outgrow the belief in santa?Posted Image  and some outgrow the religious beliefs too later on....

My 4yr old loves santa...she thinks santa is the brother of jesus...bless her cotton socks...I told her he was...lolPosted Image

Quote

  The conversation is still on topic imho, based upon the op
Oh so I HAVE been on topic according to you... that makes it so...LOL...debate the hisorical jesus aka is it all in your head?.. no no wait.. we should change the topic title to -->  Jesus, real historical figure? or is he simplly just in your head? you decide!!Posted Image

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 January 2010 - 11:54 PM.

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#383    Sherapy

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 12:02 AM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 13 January 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

O.K. O.K. I respect that. I'm just not sold on the fact that people are intentionally lying about the issue. Maybe they are, I'm not sure. Imho he's just been ingrained into western culture now, real or not. Maybe one day there'll be a shift and that will no longer be true. But from our own respective view points, as far as religous views are concerned, I don't think the issue has any bearing upon us. Christians may find it more of a shocking revelation, if they do indeed come to that conclusion. It does, I think, from time to time have an effect on how we live our lives though.

Again! thanks for the conversation. That's the way I have always rolled. :D

maybe i am too cut and dry, if I have no evidence of something or deny it to the contrary, or refuse to consider any other pov, that do not agree with mine, at the very least its deceptive whether is ts gonna have a outcome that is harmful or not is gonna depend on some things..




wow as a parent myself telling the truth is imperative and if I don't really know and say I do anyways what are the ramifications for my kids.......Not just Santa but g-d and the jesus lore .........

that's a mighty big leap for me to hang my hat on, we are talking my kids, these little people that trust me, i am not gonna violate that trust for anything that includes g-d claims , jesus claims etc...you bet for me its important how I present jesus and what we actually know......its not to promising when there is no evidence for either ......


its one thing if whats at stake is what am I gonna have for lunch as opposed to what ideas am I gonna advocate and stand for and pass on.... ..yeah its a big deal to me who the mouth piece is and what they did or didn't do and how can i weight the effects of their teachings or not.........

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥, 14 January 2010 - 12:14 AM.


#384    Paranoid Android

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:33 AM

View Postmarabod, on 13 January 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

As I said, any question deserves its answer! I do not know how did you formulate your question, which you emailed. But I know that if it was formulated like that "Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?" then they would've answered "no", unless they are believers (remember? Believers cannot operate in high sciences, but History is open for them). If you simply asked if Jesus existed, this is the case when the response would be a private opinion, as this question is not a scientific one.
I can't say what question Sheri asked, but I shared the email I sent to the professors way back on page 3 (post #33).  I didn't ask them for their personal opinions, but rather whether there was "a consensus in the historical community on this question".  I then acknowledged that I understood how it takes Faith to believe the supernatural stories (eg virgin birth, miracles, etc), but do we need Faith to even believe he was once a real figure.  

In a nutshell that was the question I asked (if you want the full email, head back to page 3, post #33) - and so far the responses have been exactly what I have expected them to be.

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#385    Sherapy

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:39 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 14 January 2010 - 02:33 AM, said:

I can't say what question Sheri asked, but I shared the email I sent to the professors way back on page 3 (post #33). I didn't ask them for their personal opinions, but rather whether there was "a consensus in the historical community on this question". I then acknowledged that I understood how it takes Faith to believe the supernatural stories (eg virgin birth, miracles, etc), but do we need Faith to even believe he was once a real figure.

In a nutshell that was the question I asked (if you want the full email, head back to page 3, post #33) - and so far the responses have been exactly what I have expected them to be.

I asked for the historical 'evidence' for jesus.....

the historicity of jesus really doesn't tell us anything.....


#386    Paranoid Android

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:39 AM

View PostS♥ ♥ ♥, on 13 January 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

Pa you might be stretching things a bit far..


BM is correct all we know is that a man named Jesus who was crucified existed somewhere.... Was he the same Jesus as christian bible we really don't know we have no evidence to support this...and that is what both scholars are saying..


its the equivalent of saying was their a Robbie? and we find a outside source that mentions a man named robbie who fell off a cliff.....

Would that be you ? or could it be any number of robbies, would it be robbie the man G-d of UM? it could be, but how could we really know? if that is all we have on this robbie?

certainly we are free to have faith its the divine robbie of UM but that's what it'd be faith and personal , not fact....simply because we don't have the evidence to conclude its robbie the g-d of UM...


I see your point, but its never been in dispute with BM, in all fairness, with the greatest of compassion for you hun.........
I do see your point.  Don't get me wrong on that Sheri.  But the difference between Robbie the man G-d of UM (really, the man G-d????) and Jesus the founder of the Christian movement is that Jesus started a movement that changed the face of the world.  I didn't.  We're not just talking about "any Jesus", but a particular Jesus on whom the Christian movement was founded.  

This historical figure has many points of his life debated.  But as your own scholar quoted (confirmed by the two replies I have received), it is agreed that he was a real person - not in the sense that it's such a common name that it could fit any number of people, but referring to one specific person.  I can't really say it much clearer than that.  Maybe if you want to email Rendsburg for clarification to see whether he means one specific Jesus who was the founder of the Christian movement or whether he is simply saying what he did because there could have been many figures on whom he was based :tu:

~ PA

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#387    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:50 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 14 January 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

I do see your point.  Don't get me wrong on that Sheri.  But the difference between Robbie the man G-d of UM (really, the man G-d????) and Jesus the founder of the Christian movement is that Jesus started a movement that changed the face of the world.  
Stall the ball...since when was jesus the FOUNDER of a religion that was invented long after he died?  it was founded by a man that claimed to have had dreams/visions and he did it

Jesus wasnt a christian..he wasnt the founder of the christian religion...the christians formed a religion based on HIM

ohh my  LOL and they sure didnt do it on some jew with no supernatural powers...they built it on what was written about his godly image...and someones dreams....I couldnt follow anything based on that...

No date to tell you when he was born....nothing... no image or even a description..no sod knows who wrote these gospels nothing...and this is what you claim is historical... PA you dont have a leg to stand on...all you have done is base your opinions on your faith


CAPS arent yelling...just laying the emphasis...

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#388    MARAB0D

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:50 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 14 January 2010 - 02:33 AM, said:

I can't say what question Sheri asked, but I shared the email I sent to the professors way back on page 3 (post #33).  I didn't ask them for their personal opinions, but rather whether there was "a consensus in the historical community on this question".  I then acknowledged that I understood how it takes Faith to believe the supernatural stories (eg virgin birth, miracles, etc), but do we need Faith to even believe he was once a real figure.  

In a nutshell that was the question I asked (if you want the full email, head back to page 3, post #33) - and so far the responses have been exactly what I have expected them to be.

Hahaha! Responses you expected to be! They simply told you that you are free to believe in Jesus, congratulations. Otherwise they would be sending you a reference to some bullet-proof source confirming his existence. Lets just stop this crap, PA, pleeeeease. You do believe, good on you, happy Heavens. But just keep it for yourself, I feel upset when I have to laugh at living people, makes me feel like taking a lolly from a child.


#389    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:54 AM

View PostS♥ ♥ ♥, on 14 January 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

I asked for the historical 'evidence' for jesus.....

the historicity of jesus really doesn't tell us anything.....


Sis read this... it was written by people who studied the bible and wrote books on jesus...

PROBLEMS WITH CLAIMS FOR JESUS' HISTORICITY

Even Wilson admits that "it has to be acknowledged that hard facts concerning Jesus and his life are remarkably hard to come by."

He concedes, for instance, that:

--the Apostle Paul, by his own admission, never knew the person Jesus but, instead, based his entire faith on a vision he claimed came to him about Jesus' resurrection;

--the Gospels do not provide any physical description of Jesus;

--the year of Jesus' birth is unknown and, based on available evidence, indeterminable;

--there is no historical validation of King Herod's supposed slaughter of Jewish children at the time of Jesus's alleged birth;

--Jesus' ancestry is illogically tied back to King David through Jesus' father Joseph;

--the author of Matthew was clearly not Jewish, as evidenced by his mistranslation of Isaiah's prophecy of the Messiah's virgin birth;

--the overall credibility of the Matthew and Luke nativity stories are seriously in doubt;

--there is no reliable evidence for the alleged crucifixion of Jesus;

--the writings of Roman historian Tacitus concerning the alleged historicity of Jesus are neither clear or specific;

--the observations of the Roman governor of Bithynia, Plithy the Younger, do not provide reliable evidence of Jesus' actual existence; and even

--the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus on the allegedly historic Jesus have undeniably been adulterated by others with a pro-Christian spin. (Wilson, pp. 51, 54-56, 58-60
)

On the question of whether Jesus really existed, the record offers an array of formidable realities. Below is an examination of some of the basic evidence against the claim that the man-god of the New Testament known as Jesus actually ever lived.


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#390    Sherapy

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:54 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 14 January 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

I do see your point. Don't get me wrong on that Sheri. But the difference between Robbie the man G-d of UM (really, the man G-d????) and Jesus the founder of the Christian movement is that Jesus started a movement that changed the face of the world. I didn't. We're not just talking about "any Jesus", but a particular Jesus on whom the Christian movement was founded.

This historical figure has many points of his life debated. But as your own scholar quoted (confirmed by the two replies I have received), it is agreed that he was a real person - not in the sense that it's such a common name that it could fit any number of people, but referring to one specific person. I can't really say it much clearer than that. Maybe if you want to email Rendsburg for clarification to see whether he means one specific Jesus who was the founder of the Christian movement or whether he is simply saying what he did because there could have been many figures on whom he was based :tu:

~ PA

I thought that is what you were implying, that the chrisitian Jesus and the historical jesus are one in the same, perhaps it is, but we have no evidence for this..

that is what we (BM, doug, me, marabear) have been trying to point out to you..

based on what we know historically we don't know beyond there was a man named jesus who was crucified...

that is what is meant by historians agree ....... they agree based on the source we have their was a man named jesus who was crucified.....

a historian concludes based on the "evidence.."

of course they are diplomatic and gracious in the process, i would and have approached this the same way if/when asked by a believer ........ the chrisitain jesus is unlikely simply because there is no evidence...


of course you can have faith its the same dude( the chrisitian jesus) but that's all it would be until we get evidence that says otherwise and perhaps one day we will, and if we do I'm the first to change my mind but its just not today..

i hope this helps...

this conversation was never meant to upset you...:no:

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥, 14 January 2010 - 02:58 AM.





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