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Archaeological Evidence For Moses


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#226    questionmark

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:10 AM

View PostRiaan, on 11 February 2010 - 07:21 PM, said:

PS The name Phantes seems to be a variant of the Greek word Phantazo (Strong's #5324), meaning to appear, a sight. This word is used to describe the sight which Moses saw (the so-called burning bush), implying that Phantes was a (mocking) nickname given to Moses after his burning-bush revelation.

Doubtfully, as Egypt was not occupied by Greeks until 1000 years later  nor could they give a iota for Jewish legends. The first time most Greeks ever heard about Moses was after the Christianization, where we talk 2000 years after the envisioned time line.

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Edited by questionmark, 12 February 2010 - 12:11 AM.

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#227    Riaan

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:36 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 12 February 2010 - 12:10 AM, said:

Doubtfully, as Egypt was not occupied by Greeks until 1000 years later  nor could they give a iota for Jewish legends. The first time most Greeks ever heard about Moses was after the Christianization, where we talk 2000 years after the envisioned time line.

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This has nothing to do with occupation. The Greeks and Egyptians were practically neighbours and they would have known about and recorded in their own annals the most disasterous event that hit Egypt.

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#228    kmt_sesh

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:34 PM

View PostRiaan, on 12 February 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with occupation. The Greeks and Egyptians were practically neighbours and they would have known about and recorded in their own annals the most disasterous event that hit Egypt.

By and large it doesn't seem like the Greeks living in Egypt cared much about the history and culture of the native Egyptians. For the most part Greeks clustered themselves in primarily Greek cities and settlements, such as Alexandria and in the Fayoum. Manetho is possibly the only person writing about Egypt who had any sort of access to Egyptian historical accounts, as slim as they were. This is probably why Ptolemy commissioned him to write the history--Manetho was an Egyptian priest with access to Egyptian temples, where records were kept. Most Greeks who wrote about Egypt based their information primarily on second-hand accounts, myths, and legends, and interspersed their accounts with ample Greek cultural influence; Herodotus is a perfect example of this.

By the time Manetho lived, it is clear in his own preserved accounts that a working memory of events a millennia earlier, from the New Kingdom, no longer existed. Carefully conducted archaeology and philology have provided us a much clearer understanding, no doubt about it.

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#229    questionmark

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:42 PM

View PostRiaan, on 12 February 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with occupation. The Greeks and Egyptians were practically neighbours and they would have known about and recorded in their own annals the most disasterous event that hit Egypt.

No, but there was no cultural interaction between Greeks and Egyptians until the last part of the last millennium BC, whereby your explanation must be a little off.

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#230    SlimJim22

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 10:41 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 12 February 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

No, but there was no cultural interaction between Greeks and Egyptians until the last part of the last millennium BC, whereby your explanation must be a little off.

It seems naive to think there was no cultural interaction as you say. I see a few parralells like the gods for a start as well as some of the practices such as the Oracle. The Greek philosophers were likely initiates in egyptian mystery schools in the first half of the first millenium if not before. Appreciate how trade would have worked in those early times and it is obvious that cultural diffusion was occuring. Alexander was the pinnacle to much that had gone before.

Contemplate the information in this
http://www.christian...ther_exodus.htm

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#231    kmt_sesh

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:58 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 12 February 2010 - 10:41 PM, said:

It seems naive to think there was no cultural interaction as you say. I see a few parralells like the gods for a start as well as some of the practices such as the Oracle. The Greek philosophers were likely initiates in egyptian mystery schools in the first half of the first millenium if not before. Appreciate how trade would have worked in those early times and it is obvious that cultural diffusion was occuring. Alexander was the pinnacle to much that had gone before.

Contemplate the information in this
http://www.christian...ther_exodus.htm

The Greeks as we think of them--philosophers, mathematicians, others with too much idle time--did not arise until the Iron Age. In fact, they did not experience a true boon in their culture till after their successful war against Xerxes in 480 BCE. Remember that it wasn't until around 700 BCE that the Greeks really started to branch out in the Mediterranean and its environs. Theirs was a nascent culture on the scene--all the more impressive that they managed to defeat the world's largest standing army.

Certainly the Egyptians interacted with them, but evidently only to a certain degree. In the Late Period of Egypt Greeks were often hired on as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army, but at that time they were not a significant part of the Egyptian culture. Herodotus writes that Ahmose II (570-526 BCE) allowed Greek mercenaries their own settlement at the Delta site of Naukratis, but it's difficult to determine if Herodotus got his facts straight because Naukratis long precedes the Greeks in time. However, it indicates that the Greeks may have started to establish a steady presence in Egypt within the sixth century BCE.

It can be argued that the Egyptians had a much longer relationship with the Mycenaeans, the Bronze Age forerunners of the Greeks.

Similarities in religious traditions have to be examined carefully and well outside the boundaries of folks like Herodotus, who were inserting their own Greek culture into the mix. Herodotus himself believed the Greek gods came from the Egyptian gods, but we know that to be false. The two cultures practiced very different religions at almost every fundamental level. Herodotus and other Greeks were merely trying to find connections between their gods and the Egyptian gods, and they stretched the truth quite a lot. Many cultures of the Mediterranean recognized a god of the sun or of magic or of healing, so at best establishing connections was very superficial and tenuous. Many of these peoples also used oracles in their worship, so there's no real connection there, either.

It's my opinion that the oft-mentioned "mystery school" is more fiction than fact, at least as far as Egypt is concerned. In twenty-five years of research I have never come across anything in the Egyptian religion or priesthood that would fit this mold. I think it's largely New Age whimsy, a product of today's fanciful thought. The bottom line is, the Greeks did not have a significant and lasting effect on Egyptian culture until after Alexander conquered Egypt in 332 BCE. And that's how it generally turns out when one culture dominates another.

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#232    questionmark

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 12:03 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 12 February 2010 - 11:58 PM, said:

It's my opinion that the oft-mentioned "mystery school" is more fiction than fact, at least as far as Egypt is concerned. In twenty-five years of research I have never come across anything in the Egyptian religion or priesthood that would fit this mold. I think it's largely New Age whimsy, a product of today's fanciful thought. The bottom line is, the Greeks did not have a significant and lasting effect on Egyptian culture until after Alexander conquered Egypt in 332 BCE. And that's how it generally turns out when one culture dominates another.

In fact that seems to be a piece of brain masturbation by A.M.O.R.C.

There is no evidence of any "global" spiritual movement before the Renaissance... and we know the unhealthy amalgam of cultural influences created there.

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#233    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 01:46 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 13 February 2010 - 12:03 AM, said:

In fact that seems to be a piece of brain masturbation by A.M.O.R.C.

There is no evidence of any "global" spiritual movement before the Renaissance... and we know the unhealthy amalgam of cultural influences created there.

LOL I'd never heard of the acronym A.M.O.R.C. I had to Google it, and lo and behold, I can't say I'm surprised. Those ol' Rosicrucians again. It makes sense, given their penchant for invented initiation rites and mystical rituals. Few have misinterpreted ancient Egyptian religion quite like the Rosicrucians. They excel at it, in fact.

I should've also mentioned that in all my studies of ancient Egyptian religion, the professional literature I've read has never once mentioned "mystery schools" in any serious context. One might see them mentioned on fringe websites, fringe books, and by the fringy Rosicrucians, but that certainly does not make "mystery schools" a reality.

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#234    jaylemurph

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 02:10 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 February 2010 - 01:46 AM, said:

LOL I'd never heard of the acronym A.M.O.R.C. I had to Google it, and lo and behold, I can't say I'm surprised. Those ol' Rosicrucians again. It makes sense, given their penchant for invented initiation rites and mystical rituals. Few have misinterpreted ancient Egyptian religion quite like the Rosicrucians. They excel at it, in fact.

Lucky you. There was some lady 'round here in the not-too-distant past who bought the faux-Rosicrucian routine hook, line and sinker. Thought they were straight out of ancient Egypt, in the teeth of the writings of the actual Renaissance Rosicrucians (a group of pro-English, pro-education, anti-war Protestants in what's now Germany, who never once made any claims to a secret society or Egyptian influence).

But a bunch of people who dressed up in funny clothes and played a sort of sub-Crowleylian "let's pretend" in the 1920s? That was her source of eternal wisdom -- sulum stultum suam panem coxit!

--Jaylemurph

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#235    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 02:16 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 13 February 2010 - 02:10 AM, said:

Lucky you. There was some lady 'round here in the not-too-distant past who bought the faux-Rosicrucian routine hook, line and sinker. Thought they were straight out of ancient Egypt, in the teeth of the writings of the actual Renaissance Rosicrucians (a group of pro-English, pro-education, anti-war Protestants in what's now Germany, who never once made any claims to a secret society or Egyptian influence).

But a bunch of people who dressed up in funny clothes and played a sort of sub-Crowleylian "let's pretend" in the 1920s? That was her source of eternal wisdom --

Now that's just sad. At the same time, it's comical the depths of intellectual befuddlement to which people will allow themselves to sink. Still, it's not as bad as the "Priestesses of Isis" and other wackos we've had in our museum's Egyptian galleries, chanting before sarcophagi and Books of the Dead. I had the urge to escort them to a nice padded room.

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sulum stultum suam panem coxit!

I'm not sure but did you just curse me? Or is that an insult? I never learned to speak Rosicrucian. :P

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#236    Riaan

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:42 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 12 February 2010 - 10:41 PM, said:

It seems naive to think there was no cultural interaction as you say. I see a few parralells like the gods for a start as well as some of the practices such as the Oracle. The Greek philosophers were likely initiates in egyptian mystery schools in the first half of the first millenium if not before. Appreciate how trade would have worked in those early times and it is obvious that cultural diffusion was occuring. Alexander was the pinnacle to much that had gone before.

Contemplate the information in this
http://www.christian...ther_exodus.htm

Egypt was at its zenith in the time of Amenhotep III. There is no question that all the neighbouring states would have had a keen interest in what was happening in Egypt, the same as anything happening in the USA becomes world news. Returning to Amenhotep and his namesake priest, it is very likely that the outsiders did not remember his exact name, only the role he played. That would be Phritiphantes, or Burn Phantes, the king's son.

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#237    jaylemurph

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:51 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 February 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

I'm not sure but did you just curse me? Or is that an insult? I never learned to speak Rosicrucian. :P

No, it's a Latin expression that means something between my profile quote and the French expression "chacu'un a son gout"; it means "Each fool bakes his own bread."

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#238    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:58 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 13 February 2010 - 02:10 AM, said:

Lucky you. There was some lady 'round here in the not-too-distant past who bought the faux-Rosicrucian routine hook, line and sinker. Thought they were straight out of ancient Egypt, in the teeth of the writings of the actual Renaissance Rosicrucians (a group of pro-English, pro-education, anti-war Protestants in what's now Germany, who never once made any claims to a secret society or Egyptian influence).

But a bunch of people who dressed up in funny clothes and played a sort of sub-Crowleylian "let's pretend" in the 1920s? That was her source of eternal wisdom -- sulum stultum suam panem coxit!

--Jaylemurph

Thank you Jaylemurph I will certainly be more stringent in what I take in. You are right there is no real evidence for the Rosy Cross although that doesn't necessarily discount there existence. As you know I am in the habit of employing imagination when there is little else to go on. This has led me to contemplate the link with the druids as a rosy cross is similar to a celtic cross. Whether they existed or are a late falsification is no concern of mine but I refute the claims that mystery schools were a mnior or non existant part of ancient culture. The egyptians were heavy into the mystery rites and the Greeks had the Eluesian mysteries originating from egypt. Now you may not find this stuff in text books again it does not mean it has no truth. It is a fact that religions have inner and outer teachings. Judaism has Kaballah and gemtria, christianity had  gnosticism, again coming out of egypt and greece and Islam has sufism. Attempts to downplay the imporatnce of mysticism is foolish to me. I ain't buying nothing hook line and sinker but it all seems to fit together extremely well.

Kmt, not being one as educated as yourselves I am not one in a position to dismiss what you say, so sorry if what I have said contradicts you. See I see Athenian culture as an amalgam of others (currently reading Bernal) thus I see no reason why we cannot make comparisons between greek and egyptian gods. There could even be Phoenician influence and at a push Jewish. It was around the time of the captivity after all that you are saying was the time when greece started looking outwardly, could it not be due to migration of the tribes of Israel. Dannan crops up in greek as well as various other cultures. Ultimately, the greek mathematicians and philosophers WERE into mystery schools. See Pythagoras, Pindar and probably Plato and others. The question is really whether they were drawing on older mystery sources out of egypt?

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#239    Rolci

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 12:23 PM

for those who are interested in Moses AND consider channeled sources valid, the following information might prove interesting. Those who consider them invalid, please ignore, as this is not a thread for discussing the validity of channeled information. Thanks.

Questioner: Can you tell me the origin of the Ten Commandments?
Ra: I am Ra. The origin of these commandments follows the law of negative
entities impressing information upon positively oriented mind/body/spirit
complexes. The information attempted to copy or ape positivity while
retaining negative characteristics.
Questioner: Was this done by the Orion group?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.
Questioner: What was their purpose in doing this?
Ra: I am Ra. The purpose of the Orion group, as mentioned before, is
conquest and enslavement. This is done by finding and establishing an elite
and causing others to serve the elite through various devices such as the laws
you mentioned and others given by this entity.
Questioner: Was the recipient of the commandments positively or
negatively oriented?
Ra: I am Ra. The recipient was one of extreme positivity, thus accounting
for some of the pseudo-positive characteristics of the information received.
As with contacts which are not successful, this entity, vibratory complex,
Moishe, did not remain a credible influence among those who had first
heard the philosophy of One and this entity was removed from this third-density
vibratory level in a lessened or saddened state, having lost, what you
may call, the honor and faith with which he had begun the
conceptualization of the Law of One and the freeing of those who were of
his tribes, as they were called at that time/space.
Questioner: If this entity was positively oriented, how was the Orion group
able to contact him?
Ra: I am Ra. This was an intensive, shall we say, battleground between
positively oriented forces of Confederation origin and negatively oriented
sources. The one called Moishe was open to impression and received the
Law of One in its most simple form. However, the information became
negatively oriented due to his people’s pressure to do specific physical things
in the third-density planes. This left the entity open for the type of
information and philosophy of a self-service nature.
Questioner: It would be wholly unlike an entity fully aware of the
knowledge of the Law of One to ever say “Thou shalt not.” Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

Best piece of truth I have found so far: http://llresearch.or...of_one_pdf.aspx
A truly free society: https://sites.google...t-economy-today
The true history of our planet: http://www.floating-...rth_history.htm
Dialogues with The Absolute: unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot (dot) co (dot) uk/2011/08/eon-11aug2010.html
A wealth of metaphysical readings with a surprisingly high ratio of truth content: soulwise (dot) net/index-00.htm

#240    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 01:09 PM

Thanks Rolci that is an interesting viewpoint. However, I am often sceptical often channelled entities. Is this Ra the same as Amon Ra of Egypt? If it is then it can't really be trusted as he would have been opposed to the Law of One unless I am misunderstanding. It does indeed seem fairly common for positives to be turned into negatives especially over a course of time as the more aggressive invariably gain the upper hand through subjugation. I'm not quite gettign what you're saying about Moses. Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through? Perhaps the golden calf and all that. My problem is if he was positively positioned as you say then why would he care? Wouldn't he have faith in the Law of One and be content that he was ascending? He must've known things wouldn't play out immediately. Maybe you could have a quiet word with Ra and ask it to clarify. Cheers

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."




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