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Archaeological Evidence For Moses


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#61    kmt_sesh

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 07:35 AM

 cormac mac airt, on 17 January 2010 - 06:49 AM, said:

I know that both Tuthmosis I and II were 18th dynasty but I'd be interested in kmt_sesh's reply, myself, as to the translation of the name as "brother of Moses". Particularly as "Moses" as a name didn't exist in Ancient Egypt. A more correct translation would be "born of Thoth", IIRC.

cormac

Hey, I just posted my response. Didn't you notice? Oh, wait, yours came first. :P

I did address the "brother of Moses" comment. It is not accurate, to be sure. In an earlier post of this thread I believe I mentioned that there are a few examples, actually, of men from ancient Egypt who did in fact bear the name Ms or Mss. Exactly how the vowels may have worked is anyone's guess, so "Moses" might be one example. We don't know for sure, so in the literature the name is typically written as Mese, Mose, Meses, and other variations. To be sure, none of these have any connection with the biblical Moses. That would be speculative nonsense, of course.

I personally am not sure what the name Ms or Mss would have meant in ancient Egypt, but it probably would not have meant the same thing as the root ms ("born of") in a name like Tuthmosis or Ramesses. The element ms is found in a very large number of Egyptian words, and alone it can mean such things as "calf," "boquet," "indeed," and even the verb "to bring, present" (Faulkner 2002:116-117). It likely has a myriad of other meanings, some of which might lend themselves well to a person's name, but to be honest I'm not inclined to go digging through my library or something as verbose as the Wörterbuch to find more answers. I'm too damn tired and it's time to get my beauty sleep!

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#62    lismore

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 01:44 PM

 kmt_sesh, on 14 January 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

People have long tried to fix a time for the biblical Exodus. The Old Testament (1 Kings 6:1) tells us the Exodus occurred 480 years after the building of Solomon's temple, which was erected around 968 BCE. This would place the Exodus in around 1448 BCE. In Egypt this would place the Exodus in Dynasty 18, specifically during the reign of Tuthmosis III, who was on the throne from around 1479 to 1425 BCE (Reeves & Wilkinson 1996).

Hello.

I think you have to bear in the mind the different original versions of the bible when you are trying to date things.   For example this verse:

Exodus 12:40
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt [ Masoretic Text; Samaritan Pentateuch and Septuagint Egypt and Canaan ] was 430 years.

The little word 'and' that appears in some versions will change your timeline by 215 years.  Most dates in the bible have this problem.   Which version of the original text you use will change the timelines by centuries.  

Egyptology has this problem too. Some dynasties are now claimed to have ruled concurrently in different parts of Egypt, upper and lower, especially in the 20s.  Depending on which King list you use, some Pharoahs will be concurrent or consecutive and will also throw your timelimes out by centuries.  

The modern tradition of Moses is also based on an interpretation of a translation, supported by later tradition.  If you take the location of Mount Sinai for example, Coptic and Catholic tradition has a location in Egypt and a monastery has been built on it.  However, the bible's location of Mount Sinai is not there.  Jewish tradition has it in modern day Saudi Arabia.

So when no evidence is found to support a traditional interpretation it does not mean the original event never happened, it may just mean that the traditional interpretation is flawed.

The 'Red Sea' is another one.  The bible doesnt say the 'Red Sea' parted.  A translation from 1603 does!  

:w00t:

Edited by lismore, 17 January 2010 - 01:49 PM.

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#63    jaylemurph

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:23 PM

 lismore, on 17 January 2010 - 01:44 PM, said:

Hello.

I think you have to bear in the mind the different original versions of the bible when you are trying to date things.   For example this verse:

Exodus 12:40
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt [ Masoretic Text; Samaritan Pentateuch and Septuagint Egypt and Canaan ] was 430 years.

The little word 'and' that appears in some versions will change your timeline by 215 years.  Most dates in the bible have this problem.   Which version of the original text you use will change the timelines by centuries.  

Egyptology has this problem too. Some dynasties are now claimed to have ruled concurrently in different parts of Egypt, upper and lower, especially in the 20s.  Depending on which King list you use, some Pharoahs will be concurrent or consecutive and will also throw your timelimes out by centuries.  

The modern tradition of Moses is also based on an interpretation of a translation, supported by later tradition.  If you take the location of Mount Sinai for example, Coptic and Catholic tradition has a location in Egypt and a monastery has been built on it.  However, the bible's location of Mount Sinai is not there.  Jewish tradition has it in modern day Saudi Arabia.

So when no evidence is found to support a traditional interpretation it does not mean the original event never happened, it may just mean that the traditional interpretation is flawed.

The 'Red Sea' is another one.  The bible doesnt say the 'Red Sea' parted.  A translation from 1603 does!  

:w00t:

All of which is why (as I said in the beginning of this thread) no serious historian uses the Bible as a source text.

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#64    Riaan

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:46 PM

The Parting of the Sea

Anyone ever considered this possibility?

In the Koran it is claimed that the very first plague to hit Egypt was a flood, and that this flood was accompanied by a mighty blast and showers of stone. This 'flood', a tsunami caused by the eruption of Thera, would have been perceived as a 'wall of water' that collapsed on the Egyptians and everyone else along the coastline. The Pharaoh's chariots were swept away by this tsunami, but the facts were later distorted into the biblical version we have today.



Koran [VII.133, 136]: "We sent them the flood and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood … therefore we drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations and were heedless of them."

Koran [XXIX, 39-40, Ali]:

"(Remember also) Qarun, Pharaoh and Haman: there came to them Moses with clear signs, but they behaved with insolence on the earth; yet they could not overreach (Us). Each one of them we seized for his crime: of them, against some we sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some we caught by a (mighty) blast; some we caused the earth to swallow up; and some we drowned (in the waters): it was not Allah who injured (and oppressed) them: they injured (and oppressed) their own souls."

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#65    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 07:02 PM

One has to wonder what relevance there is to a text from a religion (Islam) that didn't even exist until more than 2200 years after the Thera eruption. Current dating of which is given as 1613 BC +/- 10 years. Also there is no evidence that this catastrophe was the first to ever hit Egypt. That's a bit presumptuous on someone's part. Also there is no evidence in Egyptian records (archaeological or textual) of a pharaoh or his army being destroyed by this event.

cormac

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#66    Riaan

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 08:09 PM

 cormac mac airt, on 17 January 2010 - 07:02 PM, said:

Also there is no evidence in Egyptian records (archaeological or textual) of a pharaoh or his army being destroyed by this event.

cormac
It really is a pity the the Library of Alexandria had been destroyed - it would no doubt have shed some light on the issue.

There is a significant amount of circumstancial evidence (textual) relating to the events of the Exodus - see my earlier response on this topic, and read more here if you are interested.

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#67    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 08:43 PM

 Riaan, on 17 January 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

It really is a pity the the Library of Alexandria had been destroyed - it would no doubt have shed some light on the issue.

There is a significant amount of circumstancial evidence (textual) relating to the events of the Exodus - see my earlier response on this topic, and read more here if you are interested.

From your website:

Quote

Many scholars have realized that the plagues of Egypt must have been caused by an eruption of the Aegean volcano Thera, today called Santorini.

Who are these “many scholars” and what makes them think the Thera eruption “must” have been what caused the plagues. Many of which have happened several times in Egyptian history.

So Prince Tuthmosis, whose name means “born of Thoth” and who was described as "Crown Prince, Overseer of the Priests of Upper and Lower Egypt, High Priest of Ptah in Memphis and Sm-priest (of Ptah)" is being equated with Moses. Rather a stretch. Being the first born son of Amenhotep III would make him full Egyptian, not Hebrew. Being an Egyptian priest doesn’t help the claim, either. As he is believed to have died late in his fathers reign, that puts him out of the lineup for being Moses, who was allegedly 120 years old when he died.

Contrary to what you wrote, the Thera eruption has shown not to date to 1360 BC and is therefore irrelevant to any story about Amenhotep III.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#68    lismore

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:44 PM

 jaylemurph, on 17 January 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

All of which is why (as I said in the beginning of this thread) no serious historian uses the Bible as a source text.

--Jaylemurph

They dont use a traditional Western interpretation of a translation of a version of the bible you mean.  But they do use Egyptian records, which are interpreted and translated and as another poster pointed out with the battle of Kadesh, highly fantasised.

Its a matter of perspective, the Old Testament was written by Jews about Jews, so they figure prominently in it.   However, they are a small nation and a small people in the overall scheme of things.  What is important to a small nation's history might not merit a mention on the world history stage.

My point is that many scholars set out to disprove things that the original bible doesnt say in the first place.

The date worked out for the Exodus above {reign of Tutmosis} was from a version of the biblical text with a missing word which throws the meaning out 215 years and based on an Egyptian Chronology where the Pharoahs are all mixed up.  That date might be approaching 500 years off what the bible would infer............

Edited by lismore, 17 January 2010 - 10:56 PM.

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#69    lismore

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:48 PM

 cormac mac airt, on 17 January 2010 - 07:02 PM, said:

Also there is no evidence in Egyptian records (archaeological or textual) of a pharaoh or his army being destroyed by this event.

If Rameses had died in the battle of Kadesh he wouldnt have been able to write all his whopping big lies about it would he?   :D

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Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland,
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#70    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:53 PM

If Rameses had died in the battle of Kadesh it would still have nothing to do with Moses, so is meaningless to this discussion.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#71    lismore

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:59 PM

 cormac mac airt, on 17 January 2010 - 07:02 PM, said:

One has to wonder what relevance there is to a text from a religion (Islam) that didn't even exist until more than 2200 years after the Thera eruption.

That would depend on the Koran itself.  What was it based on?  Oral tradition or earlier written documents?  And also when it was written and by whom?  If some of what it says ties-in with the Jewish scriptures.......that would be interesting.

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#72    kmt_sesh

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:02 PM

 Riaan, on 17 January 2010 - 05:46 PM, said:

The Parting of the Sea

Anyone ever considered this possibility?

In the Koran it is claimed that the very first plague to hit Egypt was a flood, and that this flood was accompanied by a mighty blast and showers of stone. This 'flood', a tsunami caused by the eruption of Thera, would have been perceived as a 'wall of water' that collapsed on the Egyptians and everyone else along the coastline. The Pharaoh's chariots were swept away by this tsunami, but the facts were later distorted into the biblical version we have today.



Koran [VII.133, 136]: "We sent them the flood and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood … therefore we drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations and were heedless of them."

Koran [XXIX, 39-40, Ali]:

"(Remember also) Qarun, Pharaoh and Haman: there came to them Moses with clear signs, but they behaved with insolence on the earth; yet they could not overreach (Us). Each one of them we seized for his crime: of them, against some we sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some we caught by a (mighty) blast; some we caused the earth to swallow up; and some we drowned (in the waters): it was not Allah who injured (and oppressed) them: they injured (and oppressed) their own souls."

I would have to agree with cormac. With respect to the religion of Islam, the Quran is no more a reliable work of history than is the Torah, and is arguably less so. In simplest terms Islam is a melding of Judaism, early Christianity, and far older pagan Arabic traditions.

While the Thera eruption had to have wreaked havoc throughout the eastern Mediterranean, Egypt included, there is simply no physical evidence for widespread destruction in the Delta. This is beside the fact that no extant Egyptian text speaks of such an event in Lower Egypt. Archaeology of Delta sites to learn more about their history has not yielded evidence of anything like a tsunami or other natural destructive forces. You can be sure, such evidence would exist in the stratigraphy of any given site. What we have instead are sites like Avaris and Mendes (ancient Djedet) which yield only evidence for destruction at the hands of man, but in no way tied to biblical events.

 cormac mac airt, on 17 January 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

So Prince Tuthmosis, whose name means “born of Thoth” and who was described as "Crown Prince, Overseer of the Priests of Upper and Lower Egypt, High Priest of Ptah in Memphis and Sm-priest (of Ptah)" is being equated with Moses. Rather a stretch. Being the first born son of Amenhotep III would make him full Egyptian, not Hebrew. Being an Egyptian priest doesn’t help the claim, either. As he is believed to have died late in his fathers reign, that puts him out of the lineup for being Moses, who was allegedly 120 years old when he died.

Contrary to what you wrote, the Thera eruption has shown not to date to 1360 BC and is therefore irrelevant to any story about Amenhotep III.

cormac

Cormac, is Prince Thutmose actually someone's candidate for Moses? I must have missed that. Well, as you stated, he can be dismissed outright. Never mind the fact that the Hebrews did not yet exist at this time (reign of Amunhotep III, Dynasty 18)--like you said, he predeceased Amunhotep III. He was the elder son and crown prince, in line to succeed his father. The only reason Akhenaten came to the throne was the untimely death of his older brother, Thutmose. In fact, it seems clear Amunhotep III was not terribly interested in elevating his younger son because Akhenaten does not even appear in the historical record until after Prince Thutmose had died. :rolleyes:

I'm editing to add that perhaps it's I who am confused. I just remembered that it was Sigmund Freud's pet theory that the early death of Thutmose is what allowed Akhenaten to gain the throne and become Moses, or something silly like that. To be sure, however, anyone who attempts to use Sigmund Freud as a reliable historical source is seriously deluding himself. Um, I'd say let's stick with the actual experts on ancient Egypt, not a shrink with a pet theory. :lol:

Edited by kmt_sesh, 17 January 2010 - 11:06 PM.

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#73    SlimJim22

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:10 PM

 lismore, on 17 January 2010 - 10:59 PM, said:

That would depend on the Koran itself.  What was it based on?  Oral tradition or earlier written documents?  And also when it was written and by whom?  If some of what it says ties-in with the Jewish scriptures.......that would be interesting.
As I recall the story of the Prophet goes something like this. He was an illiterate guy who lived with his uncle the trader. He has some experiences like being transported to Jerusalem and dining with the patriarchs. He then starts having these dreams where a high pitched voice tells him to Iqra (recite). So he recites the Koran over and over. He would regularly have seizures and start reciting. I guess people started writing it down and it stuck. I ain't know scholar but that was the gist. He was a changed man after these experiences (as you would be) and led his people with strength and fought many battles. The Koran apparently is the same now as it was then, in theory with academic exceptions no doubt. An alternative view is that he was linked with the Sabean group who were an offshoot of the Nazoreans. In this case he could have been drugged or intiated or something more. What they have in common is extensive: Kosher/Halal are almost identical. Both venerate the patriarchs and have much else in common despite them being possibly a millenia or two apart. Surprising why more than anyone these faiths fail to coexist.

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#74    kmt_sesh

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:11 PM

 lismore, on 17 January 2010 - 10:48 PM, said:

If Rameses had died in the battle of Kadesh he wouldnt have been able to write all his whopping big lies about it would he?   :D

And there would be a hell of a lot fewer monuments in Egypt and a lot of blank space on temple walls. The Hittites, on the other hand, would've been delighted. :D

Ramesses II, nevertheless, is still the favorite for many scholars who have tried to find a time for the Exodus. The timeline as drawn from the Old Testament simply does not work. It's indeed interesting that the very earliest written evidence for the Hebrews appears in the subsequent reign of Merenptah, but that doesn't change the fact that wherever one wishes to plop the Exodus in the timeline, there is simply no real evidence whatsoever that it ever occurred.

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#75    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:13 PM

Quote

Cormac, is Prince Thutmose actually someone's candidate for Moses?

Kmt_sesh, that's from Riann's website. And yes, it's Freud's idea.

The idea that the Thera eruption has anything to do with Amenhotep III or Prince Tuthmosis is laughable at best. They're separated by about 250 years.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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