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#16    Cynical Sounds

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:03 PM

View PostTheResearcher, on 19 January 2010 - 03:23 PM, said:

I agree that Hollywood does take things to the extreme, but only because it makes good entertainment - if everything was made factually correct then it would probably be boring.  Your statement highlighted bold, however, is ridiculous.  You cannot possibly know whether that could happen or not.  It's highly unlikely, but we have to consider the technology available to us in the future.  For example, Quantum computing.  Moreover, there is work into Artificial Intelligence, and although Neural Networks and other devices are
only an approximation, we see positive results which in the future could lead to the development of near-human or human levels of intelligence simulation.  Of course, the border between intelligence and sentience could be argued, and questions posed as to whether it is truly sentient.  The problem with your statement is you seem to suggest it is completely impossible, whereas we do not yet know.  For all we know, an artificial intelligence simulation could develop self-awareness in the future.  Not likely, but we can't say impossible.


OK I recant my statement and put forth, CURRENTLY software IN ITS CURRENT FORM cannot randomly become sentient, and development of such technology in our lifetime is highly unlikely.
I like the way you say neural networks have has positive results since pretty much all of them have been massive failures.

look for a program to become sentient "randomly" you would need it to be able to edit its own coding (to make it so it can operate outside the bounds of its original coding) which it wouldnt be able to do because its not self aware (sentient). so for a piece of software to randomly become sentient it would require sentience to do so extremely unlikely even with advanced programs.

the only other way to randomly achieve sentience you would need independently evolving code which would kinda hint to start with that sentience is a possibility (so it wouldn't be unexpected sentience) and no1's gonna stick something that's changing its own code in charge of the worlds weapons.

(yes I have put this in very simply forms and substituted the word "code" for various other terms and not all terminology is correct just incase any computer wizz kids read this and moan)

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#17    TheResearcher

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:45 PM

View PostSpend, on 20 January 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

OK I recant my statement and put forth, CURRENTLY software IN ITS CURRENT FORM cannot randomly become sentient, and development of such technology in our lifetime is highly unlikely.
Much better  :tu:

View PostSpend, on 20 January 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

I like the way you say neural networks have has positive results since pretty much all of them have been massive failures.
There have been positive results - neural networks are a massive success in AI research. Look at optical character recognition, and projects such as ASIMO.  This article shows numerous examples of the uses of neural networks today.

View PostSpend, on 20 January 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

look for a program to become sentient "randomly" you would need it to be able to edit its own coding (to make it so it can operate outside the bounds of its original coding) which it wouldnt be able to do because its not self aware (sentient). so for a piece of software to randomly become sentient it would require sentience to do so extremely unlikely even with advanced programs.

the only other way to randomly achieve sentience you would need independently evolving code which would kinda hint to start with that sentience is a possibility (so it wouldn't be unexpected sentience) and no1's gonna stick something that's changing its own code in charge of the worlds weapons.
Not necessarily, as the article says:

Quote

The learning ability of the neural network overcomes the need to precisely define these instructions — instead the robot is 'taught' to perform in a particular way and creates its own instructions within its neural net.
Of course, I doubt anything like a neural network would do for what we're talking - but simulated intelligence of the kind ASIMO uses for movement doesn't need the instructions to move correctly hard coded into the actual software.  Ironically:

Quote

In the military world neural nets are an essential component of virtually every smart-weapons system and every countermeasures system.


Edited by TheResearcher, 20 January 2010 - 03:47 PM.

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#18    AngelsShadow

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:45 PM

Actually dude. We do have programs that can think independently. They came out with a program that had a shark and a merman, the shark would pursue the merman and the merman would evade the shark, but here's the instance of sentience, when the mermen would notice that what he was doing wasn't working, he would try to find another way to evade the shark by hiding behind some coral and waiting for the shark to pass by, giving the merman an opportunity to run for it when he was clear, or he would stop in one spot and when the shark came close he would dart away and confuse the shark until he could get behind it where it couldn't see him. And this was back in the early early 21st century, like in 2001 when this came out so I can only imagine how far it's come since then.

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#19    Hans Dolbrook

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:54 PM

sky net?are you serious?get real!
you are taking what you see on the big screen way too far my friend!!!
skynet is made up crap from the terminator saga,nothing more.

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#20    Cadetak

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:46 AM

Computers cant randomly become sentient...weapon systems are controlled remotely(by a human).

Totally not going to happen.

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#21    SlimJim22

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:00 PM

View PostCadetak, on 22 January 2010 - 10:46 AM, said:

Computers cant randomly become sentient...weapon systems are controlled remotely(by a human).

Totally not going to happen.
If super computers had access to networks and they were threatened I think they could become sentient in the sense that they would want to continue to exist. The servant becomes the master perhaps. Where is the harm in retaining control, particularly with weapon systems? If civilians are killed who is responsible, the engineer, the manufacturer? There needs to be accountability and armed drones don't allow for this.

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#22    TheResearcher

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:17 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 23 January 2010 - 04:00 PM, said:

If super computers had access to networks and they were threatened I think they could become sentient in the sense that they would want to continue to exist. The servant becomes the master perhaps. Where is the harm in retaining control, particularly with weapon systems? If civilians are killed who is responsible, the engineer, the manufacturer? There needs to be accountability and armed drones don't allow for this.
Perhaps in the future with computers programmed in such a way as to simulate intelligent behaviour.  At present there's pretty much a zero chance of it happening.  I agree with you about keeping a human in the loop - until there is foolproof object recognition of enemies (not likely to happen, humans can barely manage it) then a computer should never have the ability to make kill decisions.

Edited by TheResearcher, 23 January 2010 - 04:17 PM.

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#23    Hans Dolbrook

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 05:41 PM

has not happened,can never happen,never will happen,except in the movies! :ph34r: :blush: :sleepy:

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#24    TheResearcher

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 05:56 PM

View Postopenmind1963, on 23 January 2010 - 05:41 PM, said:

has not happened,can never happen,never will happen,except in the movies! :ph34r: :blush: :sleepy:
And what are your credentials for such an authoritarian statement?  Are you perhaps a computer scientist who has just finished a thesis disproving any possibility of sentience in computers ever?  Or are you merely an average joe who has an ironically closed mind, and no relevant knowledge?

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#25    AngelsShadow

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 11:13 PM

Hey guys! Sorry I haven't replied lately my schedule has been really hectic and has thrown my blood pressure and blood sugar way out of whack so I'm sorry if this doesn't really make too much sense, my blood sugar is extremely high and I'm kind of out of it right now but I'm gonna give it a tallyho anyway lol  :yes: !

I don't think that anyone should bury their head in the sand about these kinds of topics because we ARE coming so far in our tech that we can simulate human intelligence (like I explained with the merman/shark program) so the only thing left to happen is for a system to come online that sees us as a threat to its existence and "terminate" us. By the way Skynet wasn't a computer, it was software, in the 3rd Terminator (Rise of the Machines) John Connor explains in the end that it couldn't have been stopped, that it was software not hardware that became sentient and with the probability coding that we have today a program can easily make a decision based on different probable factors due to the adaptive coding in the probability algorithms. And from your behavior "openmind1963" you sound like a troll, I'm not accusing you of anything at all I'm just saying that your behavior is starting to resemble a troll so if you're not one then defend your honor by providing some factual evidence for your claims, show us an article or journal by a real computer scientist that disproves the probability of software becoming sentient.

Well I hope you could understand that lol like I said, I'm pretty out of it right now because of my blood sugar so if I made any mistakes in my grammar or sentence structure then I would definitely not blame you for pointing them out to me so I can correct them lol in fact I welcome it lol please go over it and tell me if I made any mistakes lol one thing I don't like too much is bad grammar lol. (I use run-on sentences and maybe leave out punctuation on accident sometimes but I at least try to make my sentence structure good lol)

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#26    AngelsShadow

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 11:28 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 20 January 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:

Try this for size...
http://www.dailymail...immigrants.html

There is stuff on youtube also.
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Jim
Wow! I enjoyed reading that one! Very interesting. Do you think they'll start using them for other purposes? I think it would be a good idea as long as they kept the programing very simple and controlled by humans. But it does have the potential to wreak havoc if put into the wrong hands, for example: the enemies of the UK could get their hands on one and spy on them and they wouldn't know it because it would look just like the UK HERTI's. Hmm..... Something to think about huh? That was a very interesting article! Thank you for sharing that!

"Quid pro quo, yes or no Clarice?"
"A census taker once tried to test me, I ate his liver, with some fava beans and a nice Chianti... Fsh fsh fsh fsh!"
"You fly back to school now little Starling! Fly fly fly! Fly fly fly..."
"What did Miggs say to you? Multiple Miggs in the next cell, he hissed at you, what did he say?"
"Of each and everything ask what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?"

#27    Cadetak

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 05:53 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 23 January 2010 - 04:00 PM, said:

If super computers had access to networks and they were threatened I think they could become sentient in the sense that they would want to continue to exist. The servant becomes the master perhaps. Where is the harm in retaining control, particularly with weapon systems? If civilians are killed who is responsible, the engineer, the manufacturer? There needs to be accountability and armed drones don't allow for this.

Computers do have access to networks and have bin vulnerable to attack since well...the dawn of the internet. No sentience.

A computer does not know it exists unless it is sentient, so it has to have sentience before it can fear its death.

Armed drones are controlled remotely by human operators. We've have actually bin utilizing robotics and spy drones in the military for awhile.

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#28    SlimJim22

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 09:34 AM

View PostCadetak, on 25 January 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Computers do have access to networks and have bin vulnerable to attack since well...the dawn of the internet. No sentience.

A computer does not know it exists unless it is sentient, so it has to have sentience before it can fear its death.

Armed drones are controlled remotely by human operators. We've have actually bin utilizing robotics and spy drones in the military for awhile.

Isn't sentience just a complex strcuture for assessing probabilities? If a computer program could choose a course of action depending on the likelihood of success is this not a basic form of sentience. Using complex algorhytm or something couldn't a program begin to acquire info and potentially evolve beyond its initial programming?

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#29    TheSearcher

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 10:54 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 25 January 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:

Isn't sentience just a complex strcuture for assessing probabilities? If a computer program could choose a course of action depending on the likelihood of success is this not a basic form of sentience. Using complex algorhytm or something couldn't a program begin to acquire info and potentially evolve beyond its initial programming?

An algorythm, as complex as you want, can still only work within the parameters it has been given or possibilites that have been programmed into it. For it to "evolve", like you say, beyond it's original programming is not possible as such.
Besides, the programm would need to have root access to rewrite itself, ever tried to get the root password from a sysadmin? The odds of getting a properly working OS from Microsoft are better. (I know, nerd joke alarm!!)

Like most coders will tell you, any software is only as good as it's worst coder.

Also I'm a bit uncomfortable with the word sentient, I would rather say self-aware, that is only my opinion though.

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#30    SlimJim22

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:00 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 25 January 2010 - 10:54 AM, said:

An algorythm, as complex as you want, can still only work within the parameters it has been given or possibilites that have been programmed into it. For it to "evolve", like you say, beyond it's original programming is not possible as such.
Besides, the programm would need to have root access to rewrite itself, ever tried to get the root password from a sysadmin? The odds of getting a properly working OS from Microsoft are better. (I know, nerd joke alarm!!)

Like most coders will tell you, any software is only as good as it's worst coder.

Also I'm a bit uncomfortable with the word sentient, I would rather say self-aware, that is only my opinion though.

No you're right, self aware is a better phrase. I am not a computer programmer so am unqualified to give an accurate argument but there no doubt massive advances ahead in terms of AI development. The program becomes the decision maker but there would need an unlikely event for a program to become self aware and feel threatened. However, the internet is an infinte play area for programs to dissappear off grid in the future so we might be well advised to proceed with caution. I am still worried by the thought of drones being armed, as I have said their is a problem with accountability. If they have a controller that is fine but there are still chances of misidentification. Do the benefits outweigh the costs enough to take such a radical step. You'll tell me it's not radical but that is the idea behind skynet I guess. The next step... in our growth and security or our loss of control and possibly even destruction.

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