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Evolution: Reasons why I believe


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#16    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 11:02 AM

For an example of exolutionary responces to changes in enviroment you have to look no further than modern hospitals. Antiseptics and anti-biotics have been in common use for quite some time, An individual bacteria or virus can have some natural resistance to such things....

Using anti-biotics wiped out 99% of them leaving only those who had enough resistance, of course they reproduced and passed on their resistance. Each time a stronger antiseptic or antibiotic was used, again this effect happened. We now have what they are calling 'the superbug', a type of bacteria that is mostly resistant to all known forms of anti-biotics.

Now bacteria have a short lifespan and extreamly fast reproduction, hence this has occured in a matter of decades, but the same thing applies to large, slower reproducing creatures only over a much longer span of time.

Eventualy with enough changes, it can be classed as a totaly seperate species.

Just look at the stages a human featus goes through, there is a marked simerlarity between the early stages of a human featus and the early stages of a fish featus. How would you explain that if not as an indicater of a common ancestor and therefore an indication of the truth of evolution?


In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#17    Venomshocker

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 07:23 PM

Feris:
QUOTE
How would you explain that if not as an indicater of a common ancestor and therefore an indication of the truth of evolution?


I would argue that all living things share similarities, and with good reason. Its because the similarities the alot od creatues share, are just simply some of the best features, taht allow them to live. I would hardly use that as grounds to support evolution. Also just by observing similarites, thic can be quite misleading. Check out my response here, in regards to neandrathals and humans. Its 3rd from the bottom:


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...pic=15429&st=45

Now Matthew in regards to the toxicology experminets performed on those poor lil worms.
QUOTE
was unable to produce offspring that survived until adulthood.


This is huge. These worms were still able to effectively reproduce!!! Now we need to ask ourselves why these offspring couldnt make it to adulthood. This is the so called crux of the experiment. It is assumed these worms couldnt make it to adulthood, because their parents were too genetically removed from each other, that the new worms genes didnt allow it to live very long, hence, creating the argument, that the parent worms must be two seperate species. I see one fatal flaw in this reasoning. The thing is the researches dont know forsure it was genetics that made it so the offspring couldnt live, that was a huge Assumption!!!

What we know from biology and Immunology is that, when creatures are put under prolonged periods of stress, such as in the toxicology experiments ,those creatures adapt to the stresses over time. We also know, that toxins put an enormous load/stress on the immune system, making the selected creature, much more vulnerable to infectious agents like,pathogens,viruses and bacterias. Now we also, know, that toxins(such as mercury), and pathogens(such as HIV, tuberculosis) can be passed down from one generation to another. One parent of a child, can carry multiple pathogens/toxins, whos body has adapted to these, while the othe parent, may have hardly any, and therefore not had the need to adapt, to these pathogens/toxins. The point is when the child is born, it inherits part of the less adapted immune system of the one parent, and the pathogens/toxins from the other. These two factors combined, lead to potential early childhood death, in all living creatures.

The thing is we have one adult that, can copulate well with like adults that have adapted to the toxins/pathogens and pruduce children that grow to old age. While if the same adult copulates with others less adapted adults, the child inherits a less developed immune system from one parent and also inherits the harmful substances from the other; young death often results. The thing is the young are dying not because of genetics, but because of inherited pathogens/toxins and the mal-adapted immune system to go with those stresses. Elliminate those substances from the parent or in some case early after childhood birth(if those pathogens/toxins havent already damaged the fetus/egg), the child is born fine, and lives to old age.

In the case, of the worms, brought to the wood hole institue, they were exposed to numerous toxins and pathogens, they adapted to these, but alot of these substances can continue to remain in the organism even through generations. Now if the wood hole worms are made to copulate with P1 and P2 no wonder their offspring are dying at younger ages, cuz they are inheriting toxins/pathogens, and part of an immune system that hasnt adapted to deal with these.

Again I would say, this is a case of adaptation, not speciation, and if we were to eliminate all harmful pathogens/toxins from the wood hole worms, via something like bioresonance treatment, there is an extremely good chance that the offspring would again be able to live to a ripe old age, and have lots of sex, and reproduce lots of young.  clap.gif

Edited by Venomshocker, 14 June 2004 - 10:54 PM.

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"Ultimately there is no such thing as meaning, only experience and creativity."  ~ Pleiadians

#18    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 08:43 PM

QUOTE (Venomshocker @ Jun 14 2004, 08:23 PM)
I would argue that all living things share similarities, and with good reason. Its because the similarities the alot od creatues share, are just simply some of the best features, taht allow them to live. I would hardly use that as grounds to support evolution.

Thats a rather spurious answer, in what way does  having the characteristics of a fish help the developing featus to live and it soon leaves that behind as it continues its development, so why would it not need that any longer?

If it isn't just a legacy left over from our evolutionary roots, what is it?

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#19    Venomshocker

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 09:28 PM

Definition of a fetus: The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.

In virtually all animals, that dont lay eggs, fetuses form in the same general way. At one point in time the fetuses all look the same i.e. virtually all living creatures were at one point an embryo, and shortly after that just a conglomerate of cells. Its similar to arguing that all species evolved from each other just because all species are made up of similar/like cells, that look the same. The thing is, that kind of argument dosent really prove anything, what else, would they be made up of besides cells? How else, would  babies in mammals form, other than through a fetus?



Edited by Venomshocker, 14 June 2004 - 09:31 PM.

Gestalt Reality
"Ultimately there is no such thing as meaning, only experience and creativity."  ~ Pleiadians

#20    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 10:42 PM

Turn that around.... if they didn't develop the same way, by having a common ancestor then how come the early stage development is almost IDENTICAL!

And we aren't talking about 'just a few cells!

user posted image

user posted image

A human and a pig.... but which is which.... those are more than "Just a few cells" and that sort of simularity is HIGHLY unlikely to develop independently!

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#21    Venomshocker

Venomshocker

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 10:47 PM

Ah,ok Fenris.
This is more of a matter of opinion than anything else.
These arguments dont prove evolution and they dont disprove it either.
If that convinces you of evolution, than well thats great for you.

Personally I need proof of the mechanism behind evolution ie. speciation before Im willing to accept it. original.gif  

Gestalt Reality
"Ultimately there is no such thing as meaning, only experience and creativity."  ~ Pleiadians

#22    Fenris

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 11:10 PM

And what doesn't natural selection already cover..... I'm not going to go any further as creationists simply make my brain hurt with trying to figure out how anyone with a passing familiarity with logic can possibly disbelieve in evolution.

The superbug I mentioned in a post today is but one example. Selective breeding can bring about new species of flower within the space of a human lifetime.... Just multiply that effect by a few million years and you get all the mechanism you could ever need!

And with that..... he was gone..... whoosh

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................




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