Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Becoming vegetarian can harm the environment


  • Please log in to reply
115 replies to this topic

#61    Mattshark

Mattshark

    stuff

  • Member
  • 16,985 posts
  • Joined:29 Dec 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK

  • Sea Shepherd, making conservation harder.

    If you care about wildlife, do not support these pirates.......

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:49 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 February 2010 - 10:47 AM, said:

Most people who become vegetarian tend to try to cook the same meals with some sort of meat substitute. This is a path to failure as meat is intrinsic to the whole.  
If you have lived with long term vegetarians you will realise that they rarely if ever produce food comparable to meat based dishes and if you try them you generaly find them lovely in their own terms. I particularely like curries and find that the wealth of vegetarian food from India is fantastic. I have had far more disgusting overcooked slabs of meat in my time than I have had disgusting vegetarian food. Remember as well that the range of Soya based meat substitutes is aimed at ex meat eaters who miss their meat - they are not a big part of a long term vegetarian diet. My main exposure to soya protein is in the form of flour fortification.

Again its dowwn to the skill of the individual.

Br Cornelius

I hated the vegetarian food in India! I found it to be a very poor substitute! Tofu is still the most evil food on the planet, it is so disgusting!

Algae : Protists not Plants!

YNWA

#62    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:50 AM

View PostMattshark, on 13 February 2010 - 10:38 AM, said:

Free range is miserable for a chicken too! They prefer shelter because they are bred from forest dwelling animals from SE Asia. Barn is generally better.

Delicious vegetarian meal is an oxymoron.

Tell that to my chickens - you cannot keep them inside.

It seems that people seem threatened by people been happy and healthy vegetarians :lol:

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#63    Mattshark

Mattshark

    stuff

  • Member
  • 16,985 posts
  • Joined:29 Dec 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK

  • Sea Shepherd, making conservation harder.

    If you care about wildlife, do not support these pirates.......

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:52 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 February 2010 - 10:50 AM, said:

Tell that to my chickens - you cannot keep them inside.

It seems that people seem threatened by people been happy and healthy vegetarians :lol:

Br Cornelius
That's genuinely a rarity. Most feel threatened by open sky and hence barn is considered the best amongst welfare scientists, we had a module on this whole subject for my MSc.
You eat fish! You aren't a vegetarian.

Algae : Protists not Plants!

YNWA

#64    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:52 AM

View PostMattshark, on 13 February 2010 - 10:49 AM, said:

I hated the vegetarian food in India! I found it to be a very poor substitute! Tofu is still the most evil food on the planet, it is so disgusting!

Tofu is nice if marinated first. I don't eat much - once or twice a year. Smoked tofu is lovely if you can get it. Silk tofu is way to slimy for my taste, but the tough version can be lovely.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#65    Mattshark

Mattshark

    stuff

  • Member
  • 16,985 posts
  • Joined:29 Dec 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK

  • Sea Shepherd, making conservation harder.

    If you care about wildlife, do not support these pirates.......

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:53 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 February 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

Tofu is nice if marinated first. I don't eat much - once or twice a year. Smoked tofu is lovely if you can get it. Silk tofu is way to slimy for my taste, but the tough version can be lovely.

Br Cornelius
I can't agree, so many people have told me it is nice and I have tried it and found it to be horrible.
Much rather have Jamon Serrano :drool:

Edited by Mattshark, 13 February 2010 - 10:54 AM.

Algae : Protists not Plants!

YNWA

#66    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:57 AM

View PostMattshark, on 13 February 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

That's genuinely a rarity. Most feel threatened by open sky and hence barn is considered the best amongst welfare scientists, we had a module on this whole subject for my MSc.
You eat fish! You aren't a vegetarian.

Chickens stay inside because the barns are so huge that it takes crossing a large number of territories to reach the
outside. Chickens are very territorial so this is a very stressful experience for most of them. If they have never seen the outside in their life they will be terrified of it at first, I have seen this in barn reared chickens, give them a week and they love been outside. Of course they like to have hedges to hide under as well.

I only eat fish which I catch from the local lough. A few times a year. I gave up been dogmatic and preachy about these things many years ago.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#67    Marby

Marby

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,306 posts
  • Joined:12 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:57 AM

I don't think that people feel threatened by vegetarians at all. Most vegetarians don't lord their dietary choices over other people. The ones that do are not threatening, but they are annoying because they act as though they are somehow morally superior to people who do eat meat. I find that attitude completely out of line and wholly misguided.

Edited by Marby, 13 February 2010 - 10:58 AM.


#68    Mattshark

Mattshark

    stuff

  • Member
  • 16,985 posts
  • Joined:29 Dec 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK

  • Sea Shepherd, making conservation harder.

    If you care about wildlife, do not support these pirates.......

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:02 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 February 2010 - 10:57 AM, said:

Chickens stay inside because the barns are so huge that it takes crossing a large number of territories to reach the
outside. Chickens are very territorial so this is a very stressful experience for most of them. If they have never seen the outside in their life they will be terrified of it at first, I have seen this in barn reared chickens, give them a week and they love been outside. Of course they like to have hedges to hide under as well.

I only eat fish which I catch from the local lough. A few times a year. I gave up been dogmatic and preachy about these things many years ago.

Br Cornelius
Nope, a lot of chickens even in free range enclosures also chose to stay in their coup because they don't like open sky above them generally and in a large barn with plenty of space they generally fair best.

If you are eating fish you are still not vegetarian though. Simple fact that fish is an animal.

Algae : Protists not Plants!

YNWA

#69    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:02 AM

View PostMarby, on 13 February 2010 - 10:57 AM, said:

I don't think that people feel threatened by vegetarians at all. Most vegetarians don't lord their dietary choices over other people. The ones that do are not threatening, but they are annoying because they act as though they are somehow morally superior to people who do eat meat. I find that attitude completely out of line and wholly misguided.

Indeed I would agree. However in this thread I sense the meat eaters attacking and defending. I have encountered all the anti-vegetarian properganda in this one short thread.
I just want to put the point across that vegetarianism probably is better for the environment and that it is a perfectly healthy and tasty alternative to meat eating. Beyond that it is a matter of personal taste - nothing more.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#70    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:04 AM

View PostMattshark, on 13 February 2010 - 11:02 AM, said:

Nope, a lot of chickens even in free range enclosures also chose to stay in their coup because they don't like open sky above them generally and in a large barn with plenty of space they generally fair best.

If you are eating fish you are still not vegetarian though. Simple fact that fish is an animal.

Well my experience is entirely different. And I don't feel a need to label myself as one thing or another. I am 99.9% vegetarian if that makes you feel better.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#71    Mattshark

Mattshark

    stuff

  • Member
  • 16,985 posts
  • Joined:29 Dec 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK

  • Sea Shepherd, making conservation harder.

    If you care about wildlife, do not support these pirates.......

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:12 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 February 2010 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well my experience is entirely different. And I don't feel a need to label myself as one thing or another. I am 99.9% vegetarian if that makes you feel better.

Br Cornelius
Sorry, but you did label yourself as a vegetarian and then said you eat fish. Fish is meat. That is all I am saying.

Quote

Indeed I would agree. However in this thread I sense the meat eaters attacking and defending. I have encountered all the anti-vegetarian properganda in this one short thread.
I just want to put the point across that vegetarianism probably is better for the environment and that it is a perfectly healthy and tasty alternative to meat eating. Beyond that it is a matter of personal taste - nothing more.
Claiming it is better for the environment is highly subjective, there are many issues and environmental problems with large scale arable farming too and whether you like it or not, soya at present is an issue.
And meat production in the EU does have some extremely high welfare laws, especially with the latest EU bill coming in. The UK has also enacted laws to stop battery farming over the next 2 years.

If you want really environmental nightmare for food productinon: Fish.

Algae : Protists not Plants!

YNWA

#72    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:25 AM

View PostMattshark, on 13 February 2010 - 11:12 AM, said:

Sorry, but you did label yourself as a vegetarian and then said you eat fish. Fish is meat. That is all I am saying.


Claiming it is better for the environment is highly subjective, there are many issues and environmental problems with large scale arable farming too and whether you like it or not, soya at present is an issue.
And meat production in the EU does have some extremely high welfare laws, especially with the latest EU bill coming in. The UK has also enacted laws to stop battery farming over the next 2 years.

If you want really environmental nightmare for food productinon: Fish.

Soya is a red herring in the whole debate as most is for meat production. Arable undoubtedly has a smaller environmental footprint than meat production, but I will freely acknowledge that the issue is complex and not entirely clear cut.

I agree entirely that fish is the main problem (but not lake caught course fishing), but you surearly realise that fish protein is a main constituent of animal feeds.  Here in Ireland most beef is reared outdoor using silage on marginal land (which needs fertilizing - which leads to lake pollution). However almost all of it goes to Spain for finishing using intensive methods and fish/soya meal. At the rate of beef consumption currently in the British Isles it is unlikely that it could be done any other way.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#73    Marby

Marby

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,306 posts
  • Joined:12 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:31 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 February 2010 - 11:02 AM, said:

Indeed I would agree. However in this thread I sense the meat eaters attacking and defending. I have encountered all the anti-vegetarian properganda in this one short thread.
I just want to put the point across that vegetarianism probably is better for the environment and that it is a perfectly healthy and tasty alternative to meat eating. Beyond that it is a matter of personal taste - nothing more.

Br Cornelius

I don't care what people eat. I'm no one's Momma.

I would disagree that it's better for the environment when you weigh in all the factors. And in the end, I consider the environment secondary to what I, and truthfully, the majority of the world consider a balanced meal. That's not an attack, but I know that my health suffered when I was a vegetarian, and there have been far too many cases of vegan children not thriving or getting rickets due to diet. While it works for some, it doesn't work for a lot of people so I'm not even getting into that debate. I just have different priorities.


#74    Sthenno

Sthenno

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,167 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2006

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:34 AM

Just on the note of delicious vegetarian food being an oxymoron, you've obviously not tried my broccoli and stilton soup...

Which part of India were you in MattShark? The food varies greatly.


#75    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,169 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:59 AM

View PostMarby, on 13 February 2010 - 11:31 AM, said:

I don't care what people eat. I'm no one's Momma.

I would disagree that it's better for the environment when you weigh in all the factors. And in the end, I consider the environment secondary to what I, and truthfully, the majority of the world consider a balanced meal. That's not an attack, but I know that my health suffered when I was a vegetarian, and there have been far too many cases of vegan children not thriving or getting rickets due to diet. While it works for some, it doesn't work for a lot of people so I'm not even getting into that debate. I just have different priorities.

In order to maintain a healthy diet you need to understand your nutritional requirements. Rickets is a disease of Vit, D deficiency and since you derive almost none of your vitamin D from food your choice of diet is not a factor. Vit. D is manufactured in the skin on exposure to UV light and you get enough if you get enough sunlight. Many dark skinned people who migrate to Northern Latitudes become Vit. D deficient because their skin is specifically adapted to reduce their exposure to that self same UV. So if a dark skinnned vegetarian child gets rickets then that is a product of lack of sunlight and can be cured by supplements. Vegetarian children of Indian parents would be particularly prone and this might lead you to falsely conclude it was a dietry matter.
Since the weather has been so atrocious up here in the North of Europe at the moment I am currently taking high dose Vit. D suppliments.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users