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Did ancient native American seafarers cross


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#196    Swede

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 10:34 PM

View Postlightlyy, on 27 February 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

" we greatly underestimate these ancient, and socalled 'primitive' peoples."

I'm with you Abramelin.

   I'm just thinking here ok? .... It seems like  Labrador, Greenland and Iceland might be sort of a 'grey' area between the Old and New Worlds so I'd like to insert a What If.. if i may.   I realize this a Large speculative leap but, What if Nordic sailors interacted with the New World earlier than known, and,  what if American sailors , or even paddlers, interacted with the Nordic areas ?   How can we be sure which came first?

  Thanks Swede, i'll try to look into what you mentioned.  I was just slinging some semi-related?  info around in my lonnnng post . Sometimes one has to do a lot of wriggling when going against the current   :)   . . .  Fascinating , and new to me ,of course, that the Meadowcroft site is dated at 16000 BP.  . . . . and that the Clovis points/culture spread from East to West.   love it!

lightly - You are most welcome. Yes, some of the more recent research is quite interesting! One correction, a typo on my part. The Paisley Caves date should read 14,300 CALYBP instead of 14,000.

An addendum - When speculating on an earlier Nordic/North American connection, be cautious of timeline in relation to latter Pleistocene/early Holocene glacial position and also, for later time periods, the state of development in regards to Nordic vessels and extent of travel.

Edit: addendum.
.

.

Edited by Swede, 27 February 2010 - 10:43 PM.


#197    lightly

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:39 PM

View PostSwede, on 27 February 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

lightly - You are most welcome. Yes, some of the more recent research is quite interesting! One correction, a typo on my part. The Paisley Caves date should read 14,300 CALYBP instead of 14,000.

An addendum - When speculating on an earlier Nordic/North American connection, be cautious of timeline in relation to latter Pleistocene/early Holocene glacial position and also, for later time periods, the state of development in regards to Nordic vessels and extent of travel.

Edit: addendum.
.

.

  Thanks Swede     okeydoke .. my excitement often outpaces my information  ;)

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#198    Abramelin

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:47 PM

View PostSwede, on 27 February 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

An addendum - When speculating on an earlier Nordic/North American connection, be cautious of timeline in relation to latter Pleistocene/early Holocene glacial position and also, for later time periods, the state of development in regards to Nordic vessels and extent of travel.

.

.


You forget the very ancient petroglyphs in Norway and Sweden, depicting boats with many people on it, people hunting whales and seals on the open ocean.


#199    Swede

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 12:04 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 February 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

You forget the very ancient petroglyphs in Norway and Sweden, depicting boats with many people on it, people hunting whales and seals on the open ocean.

Abe - Most interesting. Could you point me towards a reference? Thanks.

.


#200    Siara

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 12:32 AM

View PostQoais, on 22 February 2010 - 03:10 PM, said:

Plato lied.  Plato made the story of Atlantis up.  Even if he was describing some land far, far away that he'd heard a story about, it wouldn't have been the Americas he was talking about.

I've always been partial to the theory that Tartessos was Atlantis.  Didn't Plato imply that Atlantis interacted regularly with other Mediterranean empires? That doesn't sound like a story that would originate from a few native Americans accidently going off course and being swept into the Gulf Stream.


#201    Qoais

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 01:03 AM

"Atlantis interacted regularly with other Mediterranean empires"... in other words, Plato saying they "held sway over"  ??  I would agree with that.  One does not just send a canoe into the Med. and take control of the whole Western end of it do they? :unsure2: They would have had to have been around for quite some time I would think, to "hold sway" over Libya and Europe.

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#202    Swede

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 01:09 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 February 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

You forget the very ancient petroglyphs in Norway and Sweden, depicting boats with many people on it, people hunting whales and seals on the open ocean.

Abe - Cancel the above request. It was the phrase "very ancient" that threw me off. I guess I tend to think in different time-frames. Occupational hazard! The petroglyphs that I believe you are referring to date to circa 4,000 BP. This is consistent with other factors relating to Scandinavian watercraft. The earliest recovered craft that I am aware of is the Hjortspring Boat circa 2,350 - 2,300 BP. See below:

http://nautarch.tamu...16/hjortspring/

One of the factors that I find significant here is the instability of the design that would have restricted the use of sail. It may be speculated that earlier craft would have also faced this limitation.

This paper also has some interesting points:

http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=20793249

Amplification note - The Scandinavian Bronze Age = 3,700 BP- 2,500 BP., so consistent with petroglyphs.

Of course whaling can, depending on the situation, be pursued relatively close to shore. This activity would not necessarily entail "deep ocean" travel.

Taking the above into account and combining it with the lack of other supporting evidence, it would not appear that contact from this quarter during the period presented would be a high probability.

.


#203    Qoais

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 01:11 AM

Scandinavian Rock Art

Posted Image

Oh crap!! I thought it was bigger.  I can't remember where I got this picture either.  It's the one with the ancient boats.

Ok.  I got it from Crichton Miller's site - here's a bigger shot:

http://www.crichtonm...ycke 1300BC.jpg

Edited by Qoais, 28 February 2010 - 01:18 AM.

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Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

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#204    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 01:48 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 February 2010 - 10:28 PM, said:

Although scientists believed they had retrieved DNA from the fairly intact brain matter recovered from some of the human burials, subsequent research has shown that the mtDNA lineages reported are absent in all other prehistoric and contemporary Native American populations studied to date. Further attempts to retrieve more DNA have failed, and an amplification study has shown that there is no analyzable DNA left in the Windover burials.

http://archaeology.a.../a/windover.htm

So, first they say that "subsequent research" showed that the mtDNA lineages reported are absent in all other prehistoric and contemporary Native American populations to date, thus confirming in a way what the scientist in the video already claimed.
And then they say that again further research showed there was no analyzable DNA left.

Sorry, but this sounds like a desparate attempt to please the present native Americans who would certainly be very displeased with the original results.

==


Well, I've seen the Windover lineages at the on-line mtDNA
Concordance but have not had access to any of the articles on
the subject and so take this for what it's worth.


(...)

In conclusion, if the information at the mtDNA Concordance is
accurate, then the issue is extremely murky. In a recent TV
program on the Windover Bog, Lorenz was briefly interviewed.
To the best of my recollection, he said that he was finding
European markers instead of Native American and that it could
possibly be due to contamination.


"From: Gisele Horvat" (you didn't give a link)

Sorry, but this is someone judging the research on what she thought she remembered she heard, and who didnt have access to any of the articles.

Btw, your second link directs to a different webpage.

No, this doesn't help, LOL.

The second link is right, don't know what happened to the third, but here is the correct one:

Source 3

You said:

Quote

So, first they say that "subsequent research" showed that the mtDNA lineages reported are absent in all other prehistoric and contemporary Native American populations to date, thus confirming in a way what the scientist in the video already claimed.
And then they say that again further research showed there was no analyzable DNA left.

No, what this is saying IMO is that the mtDNA lineages claimed earlier "as European” are unevidenced in all other recent and prehistoric Native American populations studied. And that futher attempts to verify the original claim failed due to lack of analyzable DNA.

As to Gisele Horvat, she's not "just someone" as you seem to imply. Among her contributions, she co-wrote or was acknowledged in the following:

Expanding Southwest Pacific mitochondrial haplogroups P and Q (2005)

Friedlaender, Jonathan, Schurr, Theodore, Gentz, Fred, Koki, George, Friedlaender, Françoise, Horvat, Gisele, Babb, Paul, Cerchio, Sal, Kaestle, Frederika, Schanfield, Moses, Deka, Ranjan, Yanagihara, Ric, Merriwether, D. Andrew

Source

Melanesian mtDNA Complexity

Friedlaender, Jonathan S., Friedlaender, Françoise R., Hodgson, Jason A., Stoltz, Matthew, Koki, George, Horvat, Gisele, Zhadanov, Sergey, Schurr, Theodore G., Merriwether, D. Andrew

Source 2

Acknowledged in:  "Ancient mitochondrial M haplogroups identified in the Southwest Pacific" and "Genes, language, and culture history in the Southwest Pacific"

Source 3

Source 4

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#205    MARAB0D

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 08:39 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 February 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

You forget the very ancient petroglyphs in Norway and Sweden, depicting boats with many people on it, people hunting whales and seals on the open ocean.

The most ancient native population of Europe which we know is Finnish tribes, closely related to Mongolian tribes by their appearance and language except in Northern Europe they developed blond hair and blue eyes. They still live along the Arctic coast, still use long canoes, made mostly of walrus skins on a wooden frame, and still hunt seals and whales from these canoes. Same as their American relatives, Inuits, Eskimo.

But the most solid argument against the Americans ever crossing back to Old World is that since the Columbus' discovery we had intensive exchange of DISEASES with them, to which neither side had any immunity. They gave us smallpox (syphilis) and clam (gonorrhoea), while we gave them chicken pox and measles. Right at start all these diseases were deadly for those whose ancestors did not leave any immunity for them. Syphilis in medieval Europe acted like a Black Plague, emptying the entire cities - and the fact that it is now a slow-developing disease only shows that most if not each of us had an ancestor who had it. Smallpox was killing American Indians with the same efficiency.

The above shows that the human communities on both sides of Atlantic hardly ever communicated with each other at all - this means that the Africans and Europeans, if in prehistoric times even visiting Atlantis (whoops!) for trade purposes and heard those stories of "outer continent" which Plato mentions, they most likely never were at the continent itself. Even later vikings' visits to Newfoundland were probably short and did not involve contacts with native American population.


#206    jmccr8

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 09:35 PM

Hello,
  In the artice that I posted earlier,George Erikson describes a series of imigations to the Americas of several groups of people and shows that they settled in various locations.He states that the polynesians developed communities from Brazil(human remains Luzia11,300bp),Mexico City(Penon WomanIII 12,755BP),Tula(Valley of Mexico),and Baja with the Pericue peoples would died out in the 18th century from disease.
  The Olmec were an ethnicaly diverse society comprised of Mediterranian(Chichin Itza and El Ceibal),African(La Venta),and Chinese(Copan,Honduras).Erikson also states that these groups had been imigrating and developing settlements from 1,500-15,000bp.He also describes that the Algonkian and Ojibway people as being of the halogroupX.HalogroupX is also found in2-4% of european and Middle East populations.
  If what he is infering is valid then the probability of these people appearing in the America creating trade and it would seem that there would also be fairly constant influx of imigrants in order to maintain the growyh of these cultures without extensive inbreeding.Would you be able to see any effect to Americans leaving a distinct dna mark on the counties that they may have been travelling to if those cultures had been interacting in Europe and the Middle East and the Americans were already from the same areas originally?They would likely have the same immunities at that time and the development and transfer of diseases may not have been the same at that time.Possibly the effects of isolation due to some change be it raising sea levels and the loss of land masses between the continents that the immunities to deseases changed as cultures in the Americas began to assimilate and intergrate.jmccr8


#207    Swede

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 12:25 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 28 February 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Hello,
  In the artice that I posted earlier,George Erikson describes a series of imigations to the Americas of several groups of people and shows that they settled in various locations.He states that the polynesians developed communities from Brazil(human remains Luzia11,300bp),Mexico City(Penon WomanIII 12,755BP),Tula(Valley of Mexico),and Baja with the Pericue peoples would died out in the 18th century from disease.
  The Olmec were an ethnicaly diverse society comprised of Mediterranian(Chichin Itza and El Ceibal),African(La Venta),and Chinese(Copan,Honduras).Erikson also states that these groups had been imigrating and developing settlements from 1,500-15,000bp.He also describes that the Algonkian and Ojibway people as being of the halogroupX.HalogroupX is also found in2-4% of european and Middle East populations.
  If what he is infering is valid then the probability of these people appearing in the America creating trade and it would seem that there would also be fairly constant influx of imigrants in order to maintain the growyh of these cultures without extensive inbreeding.Would you be able to see any effect to Americans leaving a distinct dna mark on the counties that they may have been travelling to if those cultures had been interacting in Europe and the Middle East and the Americans were already from the same areas originally?They would likely have the same immunities at that time and the development and transfer of diseases may not have been the same at that time.Possibly the effects of isolation due to some change be it raising sea levels and the loss of land masses between the continents that the immunities to deseases changed as cultures in the Americas began to assimilate and intergrate.jmccr8

jmccr8 - I have not had the opportunity to read any of Mr. Erikson's work, but, based upon what you have presented (which set off some major red flags), I did take the time to do a bit of background research. I am afraid I have my doubts as to the qualifications of his research. While some sources use the term "anthropologist", others class him as an "author and explorer". In an admittedly rather brief search, I was unable to obtain a vitae. It does appear that he is associated with obvious "fringe" authors/organizations. See below;

http://www.sedonacre...om/pre1230.html

Based upon your writings, a number of Erikson's positions may be more than a bit questionable. The apparent reference to X2a1b may be a good example. I will reserve further comment until more research has been conducted, but my initial impression is that we may be dealing with the next "generation" of less-than-qualified sensationalistic authors.

.


#208    jmccr8

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:04 AM

View PostSwede, on 01 March 2010 - 12:25 AM, said:

jmccr8 - I have not had the opportunity to read any of Mr. Erikson's work, but, based upon what you have presented (which set off some major red flags), I did take the time to do a bit of background research. I am afraid I have my doubts as to the qualifications of his research. While some sources use the term "anthropologist", others class him as an "author and explorer". In an admittedly rather brief search, I was unable to obtain a vitae. It does appear that he is associated with obvious "fringe" authors/organizations. See below;

http://www.sedonacre...om/pre1230.html

Based upon your writings, a number of Erikson's positions may be more than a bit questionable. The apparent reference to X2a1b may be a good example. I will reserve further comment until more research has been conducted, but my initial impression is that we may be dealing with the next "generation" of less-than-qualified sensationalistic authors.
  Hello Swede,
  Thank you for your response I read the link that you attached and then tried poking around a bit to see what I could find,however I must note that I am not that proficient using this form of research as of yet.I saw that he has writen a fair amount of books and that from some of the articles that I perused that he does cite and quote archeologists and anthropologists but in all fairness I did not see any disclosure of his personal credentials.
  The article that I had posted earlier was on History News Network and was titled "Who Were the Earliest Americans".I am sorry that I did not post a link but I haven't figured out the cut and paste process that everyone uses.
  While looking for information on Erikson I saw that he has writen a book "Atlantis in America".I also saw an article on the Fuente Mangna and the Monolith of Pokotia in Bolivia.The article states that this sculpture is ingraved with Semantic and Proto Sumarian cuniform which I found interesting,this article also incorperates the use of scientists as references,although I have not checked their credentials as of yet.jmccr8
.



#209    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 03:32 PM

View PostSwede, on 28 February 2010 - 01:09 AM, said:

Abe - Cancel the above request. It was the phrase "very ancient" that threw me off. I guess I tend to think in different time-frames. Occupational hazard! The petroglyphs that I believe you are referring to date to circa 4,000 BP. This is consistent with other factors relating to Scandinavian watercraft. The earliest recovered craft that I am aware of is the Hjortspring Boat circa 2,350 - 2,300 BP. See below:

http://nautarch.tamu...16/hjortspring/

One of the factors that I find significant here is the instability of the design that would have restricted the use of sail. It may be speculated that earlier craft would have also faced this limitation.

This paper also has some interesting points:

http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=20793249

Amplification note - The Scandinavian Bronze Age = 3,700 BP- 2,500 BP., so consistent with petroglyphs.

Of course whaling can, depending on the situation, be pursued relatively close to shore. This activity would not necessarily entail "deep ocean" travel.

Taking the above into account and combining it with the lack of other supporting evidence, it would not appear that contact from this quarter during the period presented would be a high probability.

.

Thanks for the links, Swede, especially the first one.

But some time ago I found this:

(...) Hesjedal thus estimates that the Sørøya images were carved between 6,000 and 9,000 years ago. That makes them the oldest known boat images in Europe and among the oldest in the world. (The boat drawers of Sørøya were certainly not the first boat builders, however; Australia was settled as early as 37,000 years ago by people who must have arrived in boats.)

Who were the early inhabitants of Sørøya? The answer is not clear. Ten thousand years ago, as the ice sheet covering Scandinavia began to shrink, northern Norway is thought to have been colonized from two directions: from the east, by hunters from the Russian steppes who were pursuing migrating game such as reindeer, and whose rock carvings of reindeer have been found not far from Sørøya on the Norwegian mainland; and from the south, by people who made their way up Norway's ice-free west coast. At the moment there is no way of telling which direction the Sørøyans came from--or whether it was both south and east.

Certainly they were accomplished sailors, because their settlements have been found on islands even farther from the coast than Sørøya. And surely, says Hesjedal, they could not have survived on the occasional reindeer; they must have eaten fish and sea mammals, both of which are plentiful in the rich, Gulf Stream-warmed waters off northern Norway. Curiously, though, apart from two murky drawings that may represent whales, no sea creatures are depicted in the rock carvings from Sørøya. (...)

http://discovermagaz...hernexpositi343


And this is an image of a textpage (about the finds in Slettnes: "The boats of Slettnes: sources of Stone Age shipbuilding in Northern Scandinavia"):

http://www3.wileyint...4/firstpage.png

EDIT:

I uploaded the textpage to a picture host to be able to display it here:

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 01 March 2010 - 03:47 PM.


#210    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 03:56 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 28 February 2010 - 01:48 AM, said:

The second link is right, don't know what happened to the third, but here is the correct one:

Source 3

You said:



No, what this is saying IMO is that the mtDNA lineages claimed earlier "as European" are unevidenced in all other recent and prehistoric Native American populations studied. And that futher attempts to verify the original claim failed due to lack of analyzable DNA.

As to Gisele Horvat, she's not "just someone" as you seem to imply. Among her contributions, she co-wrote or was acknowledged in the following:

Expanding Southwest Pacific mitochondrial haplogroups P and Q (2005)

Friedlaender, Jonathan, Schurr, Theodore, Gentz, Fred, Koki, George, Friedlaender, Françoise, Horvat, Gisele, Babb, Paul, Cerchio, Sal, Kaestle, Frederika, Schanfield, Moses, Deka, Ranjan, Yanagihara, Ric, Merriwether, D. Andrew

Source

Melanesian mtDNA Complexity

Friedlaender, Jonathan S., Friedlaender, Françoise R., Hodgson, Jason A., Stoltz, Matthew, Koki, George, Horvat, Gisele, Zhadanov, Sergey, Schurr, Theodore G., Merriwether, D. Andrew

Source 2

Acknowledged in:  "Ancient mitochondrial M haplogroups identified in the Southwest Pacific" and "Genes, language, and culture history in the Southwest Pacific"

Source 3

Source 4

cormac

OK, thanks Cormac.

"Murky" is the word here, lol.

Well, I thought it was quite stunning to hear that part of the present European population might have originated in the Americas, but it was just too good to be true.





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