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Did ancient native American seafarers cross


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#211    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 04:07 PM

View PostMARAB0D, on 28 February 2010 - 08:39 AM, said:

The most ancient native population of Europe which we know is Finnish tribes, closely related to Mongolian tribes by their appearance and language except in Northern Europe they developed blond hair and blue eyes. They still live along the Arctic coast, still use long canoes, made mostly of walrus skins on a wooden frame, and still hunt seals and whales from these canoes. Same as their American relatives, Inuits, Eskimo.

But the most solid argument against the Americans ever crossing back to Old World is that since the Columbus' discovery we had intensive exchange of DISEASES with them, to which neither side had any immunity. They gave us smallpox (syphilis) and clam (gonorrhoea), while we gave them chicken pox and measles. Right at start all these diseases were deadly for those whose ancestors did not leave any immunity for them. Syphilis in medieval Europe acted like a Black Plague, emptying the entire cities - and the fact that it is now a slow-developing disease only shows that most if not each of us had an ancestor who had it. Smallpox was killing American Indians with the same efficiency.

The above shows that the human communities on both sides of Atlantic hardly ever communicated with each other at all - this means that the Africans and Europeans, if in prehistoric times even visiting Atlantis (whoops!) for trade purposes and heard those stories of "outer continent" which Plato mentions, they most likely never were at the continent itself. Even later vikings' visits to Newfoundland were probably short and did not involve contacts with native American population.


"The most ancient native population of Europe which we know is Finnish tribes"

Not only the Finnish tribes, also the Basques. And their ancestors occupied the Atlantic coast of Europe, from Iberia to the UK.

"But the most solid argument against the Americans ever crossing back to Old World is that since the Columbus' discovery we had intensive exchange of DISEASES with them, to which neither side had any immunity"

But that could be explained by the long separation of these populations. If it were true ancient Americans arrived in Europe after/during the last ice age, then they had many thousands of years to build a different immunity against diseases; in short, they became 'Europeans', immune against diseases their ancestors back in America did not develop immunty against.


#212    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:25 PM

Swede, what do you think of this site:

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html


#213    cormac mac airt

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:53 PM

Quote

But that could be explained by the long separation of these populations. If it were true ancient Americans arrived in Europe after/during the last ice age, then they had many thousands of years to build a different immunity against diseases; in short, they became 'Europeans', immune against diseases their ancestors back in America did not develop immunty against.

How would this work, considering that NA immigrated to the Americas towards the end of the last Ice Age and fall into any one of 5 mtDNA Haplogroups. Namely A, B, C, D or X2. Those haplogroups are not going to change over time into any of the other haplogroups that are currently in Europe, such as J, M, N, U or R. The latter of which are the parent groups for the former.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#214    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 08:22 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 01 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

How would this work, considering that NA immigrated to the Americas towards the end of the last Ice Age and fall into any one of 5 mtDNA Haplogroups. Namely A, B, C, D or X2. Those haplogroups are not going to change over time into any of the other haplogroups that are currently in Europe, such as J, M, N, U or R. The latter of which are the parent groups for the former.

cormac

I don't know; you tell me...


The Clovis culture (sometimes referred to as the Llano culture[1]) is a prehistoric Paleo-Indian culture that first appears 11,500 RCYBP (radiocarbon years before present[2]), at the end of the last glacial period, characterized by the manufacture of "Clovis points" and distinctive bone and ivory tools. Archaeologists' most precise determinations at present suggest that this radiocarbon age is equal to roughly 13,500 to 13,000 calendar years ago.

http://en.wikipedia..../Clovis_culture

==

The site of Valdivia may have been populated since 12,000 – 11,800 B.C according to archaeological discoveries in Monte Verde[6] (less than 200 km south of Valdivia), which would place it about a thousand years before the Clovis culture in North America. This challenges the "Clovis First" model of Migration to the New World and it is possible that the first inhabitants of Valdivia and Chile travelled to America by watercraft and not across a land-bridge in the Bering Strait.

http://en.wikipedia....Valdivia,_Chile


In short: people arrived/inhabited north America long before the end of the last ice age. And I will bet you know of this Luzia/Lucia skeleton that points to even much earlier immigrations.



EDIT:


Her facial features include a narrow, oval cranium, projecting face and pronounced chin, leading Brazilian anthropologists to theorize that Luzia's predecessors traveled across the Bering Strait, perhaps following the coastline by boat, from northeast Asia, where her ancestors had lived for tens of thousands of years since human migrations from Africa. Dr. Walter Neves, anthropologist at the University of São Paulo, suggests that Luzia belonged to these people who began arriving in the New World as early as 15,000 years ago

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Luzia_Woman

http://www.andaman.o...-LagoaSanta.htm





Edited by Abramelin, 01 March 2010 - 08:33 PM.


#215    MARAB0D

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 08:32 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 March 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

"The most ancient native population of Europe which we know is Finnish tribes"

Not only the Finnish tribes, also the Basques. And their ancestors occupied the Atlantic coast of Europe, from Iberia to the UK.

"But the most solid argument against the Americans ever crossing back to Old World is that since the Columbus' discovery we had intensive exchange of DISEASES with them, to which neither side had any immunity"

But that could be explained by the long separation of these populations. If it were true ancient Americans arrived in Europe after/during the last ice age, then they had many thousands of years to build a different immunity against diseases; in short, they became 'Europeans', immune against diseases their ancestors back in America did not develop immunty against.

Yes, Basques. These are the remainders of Iberian race, also indigenous people for Southern Europe. There were also Ligurians, from them we have no tribes left as they blended with the Celts and Italian tribes, but from the Iberians we still have Basques in the West and Georgians in the East, part of Georgia is still called "Iveria". I certainly meant only northern Europe, sorry.

On immunity I would not argue, as it is possible, what you say, that the later separation period was long enough to lose the immunity. It is similar to us recently stopping to vaccinate against Pox (black death), so in a few generations we would again become vulnerable to it - and the sources of it is still available, the old graveyards where the victims were buried. The only strange part is the mentioned sexually transferred diseases, as they sure originate from the New World and never existed in the Old World - so if the ancient contact took place, it is possible to insist it did not anyhow includ sexual relationships.


#216    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:01 PM

View PostMARAB0D, on 01 March 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

Yes, Basques. These are the remainders of Iberian race, also indigenous people for Southern Europe. There were also Ligurians, from them we have no tribes left as they blended with the Celts and Italian tribes, but from the Iberians we still have Basques in the West and Georgians in the East, part of Georgia is still called "Iveria". I certainly meant only northern Europe, sorry.

On immunity I would not argue, as it is possible, what you say, that the later separation period was long enough to lose the immunity. It is similar to us recently stopping to vaccinate against Pox (black death), so in a few generations we would again become vulnerable to it - and the sources of it is still available, the old graveyards where the victims were buried. The only strange part is the mentioned sexually transferred diseases, as they sure originate from the New World and never existed in the Old World - so if the ancient contact took place, it is possible to insist it did not anyhow includ sexual relationships.


No, the ancestors of the Basques lived in Spain, Portugal, France, and later migrated to Ireland and maybe Wales and western England.

Well, that;s what's geneticists claim.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 March 2010 - 09:02 PM.


#217    cormac mac airt

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:53 PM

Quote

Quote

How would this work, considering that NA immigrated to the Americas towards the end of the last Ice Age and fall into any one of 5 mtDNA Haplogroups. Namely A, B, C, D or X2. Those haplogroups are not going to change over time into any of the other haplogroups that are currently in Europe, such as J, M, N, U or R. The latter of which are the parent groups for the former.

I don't know; you tell me...

Well Abramelin unless you can show it's possible for instance to be your own grandpa, contrary to the genetic evidence, then there's no reason to believe that members of Haplogroups A, B, C, D or X2 would convert back to the parent groups of J, M, N, U or R, which are major Old World groups.

Quote

In short: people arrived/inhabited north America long before the end of the last ice age.

Depends on what one means by "the end of the Ice age". Considering that the Last Glacial Maximum happened c.20,000 BP/18,000 BC and the most recent Ice Age ended sometime between 8000 and 10,000 BC, then any NA immigrating to the Americas a few thousand years before the end wouldn't constitute "long before the end" IMO. Particularly as the last Ice Age lasted for nearly 100,000 years.

The Luzia finds, while interesting, still indicate an event that happened near the end of the Ice Age. A few thousand years one way or the other isn't a significant change in timeframes, IMO. Now, if you were to show verifiable evidence of something happening BEFORE the Last Glacial Maximum, that would be both interesting and significant.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#218    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 10:19 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 01 March 2010 - 09:53 PM, said:

Well Abramelin unless you can show it's possible for instance to be your own grandpa, contrary to the genetic evidence, then there's no reason to believe that members of Haplogroups A, B, C, D or X2 would convert back to the parent groups of J, M, N, U or R, which are major Old World groups.



Depends on what one means by "the end of the Ice age". Considering that the Last Glacial Maximum happened c.20,000 BP/18,000 BC and the most recent Ice Age ended sometime between 8000 and 10,000 BC, then any NA immigrating to the Americas a few thousand years before the end wouldn't constitute "long before the end" IMO. Particularly as the last Ice Age lasted for nearly 100,000 years.

The Luzia finds, while interesting, still indicate an event that happened near the end of the Ice Age. A few thousand years one way or the other isn't a significant change in timeframes, IMO. Now, if you were to show verifiable evidence of something happening BEFORE the Last Glacial Maximum, that would be both interesting and significant.

cormac

You are forgetting about the Inter-Glacials, periods during Glacial periods where the ice sheets retreated temporarily.

Anyway, I am not going to argue with you about genetics because I don't know and understand enough about it.

But what do you think about the dates on these migration patterns, based on genetics?



Posted Image

Posted Image

One says 38,000 BCE (=40,000 BP), the other says 35,000 BP.

They are wrong?


#219    cormac mac airt

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 11:43 PM

Quote

You are forgetting about the Inter-Glacials, periods during Glacial periods where the ice sheets retreated temporarily.

No, the interglacials are irrelevant to the discussion. Particularly as the last interglacial was between c.130,000 and c.110,000 BP, long LONG before any migrations of peoples to the Americas.

Quote

But what do you think about the dates on these migration patterns, based on genetics?

They are wrong?

Based on the current mtDNA Phylogenetic Tree, Id have to say yes, they're wrong. Here are the dates from the current tree as relates to mtDNA groups in America:

A2:  14,600 BP

B2:  14,600 BP

C1b:  14,500 BP

D1:  13,500 BP

C1a:  13,000 BP

X2a:  12,800 BP

Even allowing some latitude of say, a few thousand years, it still makes any claims of immigration before the LGM meaningless.

I can send you a copy of the Y Chromosome and mtDNA Phylogenetic trees if you want them.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#220    Abramelin

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:59 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 01 March 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:

No, the interglacials are irrelevant to the discussion. Particularly as the last interglacial was between c.130,000 and c.110,000 BP, long LONG before any migrations of peoples to the Americas.



Based on the current mtDNA Phylogenetic Tree, I'd have to say yes, they're wrong. Here are the dates from the current tree as relates to mtDNA groups in America:

A2:  14,600 BP

B2:  14,600 BP

C1b:  14,500 BP

D1:  13,500 BP

C1a:  13,000 BP

X2a:  12,800 BP

Even allowing some latitude of say, a few thousand years, it still makes any claims of immigration before the LGM meaningless.

I can send you a copy of the Y Chromosome and mtDNA Phylogenetic trees if you want them.

cormac

Yes, you are right about the interglacials of course. I actually meant the interstadials, shorter and faster fluctuations of the climate during a glacial period. Some links:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Interstadial
http://en.wikipedia....Oeschger_events

An intersting interstadial is the Göttweig interstadial:

Göttweig Interstadial
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2740038

IN EUROPE the Wurm I-II or Göttweig Interstadial,lasting from about 40,000 to about 29,000 B.C.,was a period of mild,but not hot,climate,like that of the present,and of favored spots like Palestine during Wurm I. It was a time of important racial and cultural change
http://dodona.proboa...int&thread=7795

http://www.jstor.org/pss/57609


But alas, I could not find an equivalent of this Göttweig Interstadial in North America; maybe because there wasn't, or maybe I just can't find the right name for it.


But it seems to be this interstadial in which people - according to the maps I posted - started migrating to the Americas for the first time.


===========

EDIT:

I don't know how recent the next findings/theory is, but here it is anyway:

One recent model for the peopling of North and South America is the "three wave" model, which proposes that the Americas were populated by three distinct waves of migrants moving into what is now Alaska via Siberia. This theory is based on the trio of linguistic groups that exist in the Americas: Amerind, Na-dene, and Eskimo-Aleut. The geneticists, Sandro L. Bonatto and Francisco M. Salzano have proffered another theory. By analysing mitochondrial DNA sequences of modern Native North and South Americans, these researchers believe they have found evidence which suggests a single migration to the New World, with linguistic differences developing later. Furthermore, they have extrapolated an estimated migration date of between 41,000-28,000 B.C.E., based on this genetic evidence. It is clear from these examples how complex and intricate genetic and linguistic analysis can be.

http://www.ucalgary....tions/one2.html


And this estimated migration date of between 41,000 - 28,000 BCE seems to coincide nicely with the Göttweig Interstadial.


(and, lol, in case I forget it, here's a Wikipage about the migrating haplo-hopla groups : LINK- makes my head spin...)

Edited by Abramelin, 02 March 2010 - 01:21 AM.


#221    lightly

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 03:18 AM

hi Abramelin,  so have DNA or Immunity differences sunk the west to east N. Atlantic travelers ?

This is my personal favorite info bit about  that so far.. from your  post #179 - page 12.

"The oldest Maritime Archaic sight in Europe
is Teviec prospering about 7200 years ago, off the coast of Brittany in
France, and the artifacts, method of burial, artistic designs, and evidence
of shamanistic rituals of the Maritime Archaic in Europe are amazingly
similar to the other Red Paint sights in America. "

    
with  Older amazingly similar evidence being found  in N. America (9000 yrs. ago?)   and Labrador... and Greenland...    it seems like the amazing similarities spoken of would strongly suggest a very similar, and  so  interactive ? , culture skirting  the entire  N. Atlantic  .. for quite awhile at least ?      or is that much too speculative??    Another case of parallel development ?  .. maybe.. but how can the amazingly similar ,culturally specific,  transAtlantic artistic designs  be explained away ????  
   dunno... interesting thread tho.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#222    Swede

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:23 AM

Abe, Cormac - What a delight to observe the presentation of worthwhile information. A boon to these pages! It is late, and I have had another long day, so just a few points;

Abe - Thanks for the references, as I was unaware of the more northern glyphs. Unfortunately, I have not had the time to pull up photos. Studying the construction elements could be most insightful. As to the Paabo site, well, I can't really put a great deal of faith in a "Fine Artist" of natural subject matter. If time allows, I will attempt to evaluate his material.

As to the genetic mapping, I would be inclined to consider the second of the two to be the most consistent with other supporting data. The most current information that I have available would tend to indicate at least three immigrations amongst the A,B,C/D haplogroups. The X haplogroup, particularly X2a1b is a relatively new element in the puzzle. While I may have my own personal thoughts, the truth is that the jury is still out on this one. Also, as I have noted under other headings, there is evidence for at least one other gene pool that appears to have suffered extinction.

Cormac - As always, I personally appreciate you taking the time to present this data. May others take note. What many of the individuals in the field are presently attempting to reconcile is the genetic/linguistic/archaeological/forensic/climatological evidence. As you have noted, there is a bit of leeway in regards to the fine-line definition of genetic divergence.

All factors taken into account, a time frame of circa 20,000 to 25,000 (in regards to human habitation of the Americas) may not be too out of line.

.


#223    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:34 AM

Quote

But it seems to be this interstadial in which people - according to the maps I posted - started migrating to the Americas for the first time.

I don't feel it's really meaningful to use maps which are 8 - 10 years old and therefore outdated, as there is much, MUCH more known via Y Chromosome and mtDNA haplogroups and their migration now than there was then.

For anyone who's interested, here is the most recent (10 November 2009) Mitochondrial Phylogenetic Tree:

Posted Image

Abramelin, you can find the sub-clades I mentioned on the tree along with their dates (numbered in blue-kya). Again, nowhere near the older proposed dates your earlier maps showed before.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#224    TikiToa

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:22 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 20 February 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

Does curiosity and the desire to explore make sense?

People all over the world have crossed the oceans and migrated across the continents.

I totally agree with you Abramelin  :rolleyes:
The American Indians come off of Abrahams line believe it or not, they share the same blood with the New Zealand Maori peoples/ peoples of the Cloud, the Aborigine, Pacific Islands, all of asia to the middle east to Africa and around the World again to cairo, chile, mexico etc.... The Egyptians did not stop looking for the ancients who left Egypt with Moses and caught up with them a very long time ago. That is why we have government rule in almost every country on the face of the Earth. The ancients spread out all around the globe because the ancients knew the World wasn't flat eons before the so called new land discoverers/pirates.   :rolleyes:

Check this out:


Posted Image

#225    MARAB0D

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:03 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 March 2010 - 09:01 PM, said:

No, the ancestors of the Basques lived in Spain, Portugal, France, and later migrated to Ireland and maybe Wales and western England.

Well, that;s what's geneticists claim.

I did not say they were not living there, I said they were living over all South Europe up to Caucasis in the east. They still have similar languages, cuisine and even dances. And Georgians were living there since time prehistoric, it is from them Jason pinched golden fleece and Medea (they still have this name in use). Golden fleece was the technology of alluvial gold extraction on sheepskins, which the Greeks wanted desperately, and Medea was a chemist... Later Georgians fell under Persian rule, but retained the original tongue.

On migration to Ireland and Britain you clearly confuse them with the Celts. Spain in coastal areas was populated with the mixed Celto-Iberian tribes, which during the Punic wars were Roman allies and in 3rd century BC were known exactly as Celtiberes. Some of these tribes could together with the Celts move to Ireland and Britain. In Britain they were living all over the island until the Scots arrived from Ireland and took over the northern part, trying to spread all over. But in 1st century BC Brits (as they were calling themselves) were colonized by Romans and later baptised. They were remaining a Roman colony and protected against Scots till late 4th century AD when the Romans abandoned the colony. Soon after this Horsa and Hengwist, two Saxon vikings from Denmark (on Roman maps "Angulus" hence Anglo-Saxes) arrived and were hired by the Brits for protection against Scots in exchange for the lands (East Sax, WestSax, South Sax etc), but then the war happened with the fast multiplying Saxons and when the peace was once celebrated, Hengwist suddenly ordered the Saxes to draw their saxes (cleavers), so they slayed most of British gentry and fighters, and squeezed out the rest of them into Wales, which was named like this because it was covered with forest. Brits were pure Celts like Gauls, Boadicea was their queen captured by the Romans. It is enough to compare the appearance of a typical Iberian with any Irish, Welsh or Scottish to make sure they may have only a minority of their blood, as the Basques (same as Georgians) are olive skinned and very dark haired people, resembling Persians, they are of another race than Celts, as Iberians are a separate kind of people, maybe lived in Europe before the Deluge. Just find photos of the Basques and compare with the Welsh or Irish.





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