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Did ancient native American seafarers cross


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#61    Corp

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 05:43 PM

Moving around the islands of the Caribbean is one thing, traveling across the ocean to other land masses is quite another. I have no problem believing that the Mayan were able to move goods around the islands in certain seasons but for them to purposely travel across the ocean to Africa and Europe and even safely return? That I don't buy.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#62    Abramelin

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 06:14 PM

View PostCorp, on 22 February 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Moving around the islands of the Caribbean is one thing, traveling across the ocean to other land masses is quite another. I have no problem believing that the Mayan were able to move goods around the islands in certain seasons but for them to purposely travel across the ocean to Africa and Europe and even safely return? That I don't buy.


I mentioned travels across the Caribbean Sea for 10 days. If they were travelling to Florida (which they very probably did) they may have been in a tropical storm, and were swept off corse (spelling?) and ended up at the Gulf Stream east of Florida.

And that is the way to get to Europe.


#63    Abramelin

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 06:34 PM

VIEWS OF NATURE: OR CONTEMPLATIONS ON THE SUBLIME PHENOMENA OF CEEATION;

WITH SCIENTIFIC ILLUSTRATIONS.

BY ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT.

TRANSLATED FROM THE GERMAN BY E. C. OTTE, AND HENRY G. BOIIN.

WITH A FRONTISPIECE PROM A SKETCH BY THE AUTHOR, A FAC-SIMILE OF HIS HAND-
WRITING, AND A COMPREHENSIVE INDEX.




LONDON: HENRY G. BOHN, YORK STREET, COVENT GARDEN. 1850.



LONDON :
PRINTED BY HARBISON AND SON,
st. martin's LANE.



http://www.archive.org/stream/viewsofnatureorc1850humb/viewsofnatureorc1850humb_djvu.txt





Oceanic currents. In the northern part of the Atlantic the waters
are agitated in a true rotatory movement. That the first impulse to the
Gulf-stream is to be looked for at the southern apex of Africa, was a fact
already known to Sir Humphry Gilbert in 1560. Influence of the Gulf-
stream on the climate of Scandinavia. How it contributed to the
discovery of America. Instances of Esquimaux, who, favoured by
north-west winds, have been carried, through the returning easterly
inclined portion of the warm gulf-stream, to the European coasts. In-
formation of Cornelius Nepos and Pomponius Mela respecting Indians,
whom a King of the Boii sent as a present to the Gallic Proconsul
Quintus Metellus Celer ; and again of others in the times of the Othos,
Frederick Barbarossa, Columbus, and Cardinal Bembo. Again, in
the years 1682 and 1684, natives of Greenland appeared at the Orkney
Islandsó pp. 120-125.


And  Esquimaux are of course the Eskimos, the Inuit.




#64    MARAB0D

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 06:59 PM

View PostQoais, on 22 February 2010 - 03:10 PM, said:

Plato lied.  Plato made the story of Atlantis up.  Even if he was describing some land far, far away that he'd heard a story about, it wouldn't have been the Americas he was talking about. Unless of course, we can find proof that the Amerindians did in fact drift over to Eastern shores and somehow the scholars of Egypt heard about it. In the time he described, (10,000 BC) there were no Athenians either.  

So inasmuch as this thread isn't supposed to be about Atlantis, it would go a ways in showing that the ancient priests of Egypt had heard tell about this land on the opposite side of the ocean if it can be shown that Indians did travel East.  Also just a small point, Plato does not name the priest Solon talked with.  Someone else gave the name Sonchis.

It is not Plato lied, it is YOUR belief that he did. Whatever logic you express and follow, it is not based on any source older than Timaeus, I hope you would agree on this? if not, then SHOW ME. It is easy to read Timaeus the same time watching at the Globe, as one can find on it exactly what Plato speaks about!

By the way Timaeus' text explains, that the mentioned "Athenians" were only called like that for Solon to understand where they were living and this did not imply the ancient nature of the Greeks, whom the same Sonkhis treats as a new culture with no historical records. You yourself call American native population "American Indians" despite they were neither Americans nor Indians but had their own names.


#65    Abramelin

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 07:10 PM

If at present a philosopher/politician tells you a captivating story, would you believe the facts s/he presented?

Or would you have some second thoughts about what s/he said?


#66    MARAB0D

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 08:20 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 February 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

If at present a philosopher/politician tells you a captivating story, would you believe the facts s/he presented?

Or would you have some second thoughts about what s/he said?

Was it about Plato? If so, which "second thought" Timaeus carries and how it is related to the "outer continent"?

Years after Timaeus Plato used Atlantis in a political dream about "perfect state", this is true... But not in Timaeus, this one is non-political.


#67    Harte

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 February 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

I mentioned travels across the Caribbean Sea for 10 days. If they were travelling to Florida (which they very probably did) they may have been in a tropical storm, and were swept off corse (spelling?) and ended up at the Gulf Stream east of Florida.

And that is the way to get to Europe.
No, that is the way to ship your dead corpse to Europe, considering you would not have packed enough pheasant under glass and port wine to feed and drink everybody on the several-month trip.

Harte

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#68    Harte

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:03 PM

View Postmarabod, on 22 February 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

Years after Timaeus Plato used Atlantis in a political dream about "perfect state", this is true... But not in Timaeus, this one is non-political.
Marabod, dude, much better to read up on something before you post about it, if (as in this case) you don't really know what the frak you're talking about.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Anybody like Coleridge?

#69    jaylemurph

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:13 PM

View PostHarte, on 22 February 2010 - 09:03 PM, said:

Marabod, dude, much better to read up on something before you post about it, if (as in this case) you don't really know what the frak you're talking about.

Harte

Clearly, Harte, you just don't understand the basic facts of Plato. The real Plato was a blithering idiot*, so incompetent that even when he wrote his own material, he had no idea what he really meant. It is therefore necessary to quote him grossly out of context, and if in doing so, he manages to sound contradictory to himself, well...

--Jaylemurph

*Except in those cases where he was an unquestionable genius who mean exactly, literally what he said. Unfortunately, mere students of logic and literature cannot tell the different instances. Only fringe hooligans can.

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#70    lightly

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:26 PM

Attached File  Atlantic ridge.jpg   99.45K   1 downloads      Attached File  Ascension.jpg   8.83K   1 downloads
  
i posted these images earlier... i was just wondering if some islands on the mid Atlantic ridge, about halfway between the Americas and Europe and Africa might come in handy for transatlantic voyages ??      I think they all have fresh water and vegetation/food?    I know Ascension Island does...
  i'm having trouble finding much info on birds using the islands on migrations.. but i'd bet a quarter that they do.
    I'm thinking that people seeing birds flying off into  the Atlantic  from the Americas and Carribean might give them the idea that they were flying somewhere  ??    ... and i'm guessing that following the bird migrations might help them find the islands.  ??
    .. just a thought.. and i'll keep posting it till i get a comment + or -   :lol:

Edited by lightlyy, 22 February 2010 - 09:30 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#71    MARAB0D

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:28 PM

View PostHarte, on 22 February 2010 - 09:03 PM, said:

Marabod, dude, much better to read up on something before you post about it, if (as in this case) you don't really know what the frak you're talking about.

Harte

No need to be so patronising - it is enough to expand the thought from a one-liner to at least several lines. Please explain where in Timaeus the idea of "outer continent" servs in support to some another political idea. Too easy!


#72    Harte

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:49 PM

View Postmarabod, on 22 February 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

No need to be so patronising
Sorry, it's my hobby - I'm a patron.

Quote

Please explain where in Timaeus the idea of "outer continent" servs in support to some another political idea. Too easy!
Please explain the following:

Quote

Years after Timaeus Plato used Atlantis in a political dream about "perfect state", this is true...

That's why I bolded it.

Now, Plato placed Atlantis out of reach in space and time which is still a common literary device, even to this day.

He did so as a way to ensure that it was "removed" from the ordinary and thus would remain extraordinary.  Also, it was necessary as a literary device to explain why nobody had ever heard of Atlantis until Plato wrote about it.

Also, because the Greeks held the Egyptians in great esteem (based solely on the antiquity of their culture,) Plato had to make the Atlantean culture older than the Egyptian, in order to bestow on it the requisite amount of greatness one must have in such a story of a fall from grace.

Regarding the "opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean," the idea that the Atlantic was "surrounded" by land was a Greek belief. IIRC, it stems from the time when they believed that the ocean was actually a river that ran all around the world (and would thus obviously have two banks - two continents.) Plato mentions it here because the Greeks always thought this.

In fact, the Atlantic is not surrounded by "the opposite continent," is it?

You should read other works of Plato.  You'll not find Timaeus so palatable as a "true story" once (if ever) you do.

Harte

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#73    MARAB0D

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 11:37 PM

View PostHarte, on 22 February 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

Sorry, it's my hobby - I'm a patron.


Please explain the following:


That's why I bolded it.

Now, Plato placed Atlantis out of reach in space and time which is still a common literary device, even to this day.

He did so as a way to ensure that it was "removed" from the ordinary and thus would remain extraordinary.  Also, it was necessary as a literary device to explain why nobody had ever heard of Atlantis until Plato wrote about it.

Also, because the Greeks held the Egyptians in great esteem (based solely on the antiquity of their culture,) Plato had to make the Atlantean culture older than the Egyptian, in order to bestow on it the requisite amount of greatness one must have in such a story of a fall from grace.

Regarding the "opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean," the idea that the Atlantic was "surrounded" by land was a Greek belief. IIRC, it stems from the time when they believed that the ocean was actually a river that ran all around the world (and would thus obviously have two banks - two continents.) Plato mentions it here because the Greeks always thought this.

In fact, the Atlantic is not surrounded by "the opposite continent," is it?

You should read other works of Plato.  You'll not find Timaeus so palatable as a "true story" once (if ever) you do.

Harte

Please, consider the following: Plato does not simply "mention" Atlantis or place it somewhere out of reach; he refers to the message from Solon's diaries/memoirs. These memoirs existed for 200 years BEFORE Plato and were known among the educated Greeks. Some copies of them were also existing centuries AFTER Plato, and were used by Plutarch to write Solon's Biography. This means if Plato lied about a source, then we would sure had the contemporary remarks blaming him in lying, but we do not have them.

In order to accuse Plato in telling lies one has to establish first that the source was referred falsely. This "factual" note from Timaeus has nothing in relation to what Plato himself was then making up of Atlantis, as when he was making it up, he did not refer to any source at all. It is the same as I refer to Napoleon's memoirs and tell about the battle of Waterloo - and then start to express my own fantasies about this battle without further referring to Napoleon. Different things!

If you expand the quoted passage in which Atlantis is mentioned, it would be clear that the existence of Atlantis was not the core issue of the dialogue at all, as the discussion between Solon and Sonkhis was about the historical records of different cultures and calamities which the Mankind could remember in the records. This also includes the story of Phaeton, most likely some asteroid impact, remembered by the Egyptians, while Atlantis story is only used to describe yet another catastrophe, which destroyed this island empire and killed the European population too, possibly with a giant tsunami; and we DO HAVE the evidence that Europe was covered with sea water in late Pleistocene so that Arctic ocean became temporary connected to Caspian Sea (we still have Arctic seals living in Caspian land-locked sea). So not only we do have the "outer continent" rediscovered by Amerigo Vespucci and Columbus, and we have stepped pyramids on this continent, but we have living evidence of the flood in Europe. We also have many dozens of impact craters, one of which must be from that Phaeton story. Where are the lies???

Our inability to find Atlantis itself in accordance with the Plato's message, goes along the similar our inability to find Troy in accordance to Homer - until someone, Schlimann in this case, invested some enthusiasm, money and energy and started to look for it exactly where the ancient book was placing it. But, as it was noted here, this thread is not about Atlantis at all, it is just a coincidence that Atlantis is found mentioned in the same passage as Americas - so there is no need for us to turn away from the topic. The quote from Plato mentions ancient NAVIGATION TO AMERICAS, and this is the reasons it was quoted, not to cause heart attack in jaylemurph.

Edited by marabod, 22 February 2010 - 11:41 PM.


#74    jmccr8

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 03:56 AM

I was just reading an article at History News Network by George Erikson:Who Were The Earliest Americans.In the article he discusses that there were several pre-clovis groups of people that had traveled by boat to America.He states that some groups were of African,European,and Polinesian extraction.He also infers that these groups of people had been present in parts of North and South America before 12,000bp.
  If these groups of people did arrive by boat it does not seem unreasonable that they could travel back and forth developing trade.It would also be reasonable to suggest that they could have exchanged knowledge with repect to building,art,science,and religion.Over a period of time as change of power occurs so would modification of social structure and myths,the knowledge of other cultures in different parts of the world may still have been available to these later cultures and it is posible that they were not traversing the unknown as we are assuming today.jmccr8


#75    lightly

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 04:09 AM

that makes sense to me jmccr ,     easy for me to think outside the box tho.. because i'm never too sure what's supposed to be IN the tattered old box.  :P

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