264 replies to this topic

[jmccr8]

Hey Lightly I fixed up my box by cutting out a couple of windows and a front and back door.jmccr8

[Abramelin]

Harte, on 22 February 2010 - 09:00 PM, said:

No, that is the way to ship your dead corpse to Europe, considering you would not have packed enough pheasant under glass and port wine to feed and drink everybody on the several-month trip.

Harte

They did all that.

And they knew how to fish, believe me.

[Abramelin]

Hello everyone.

This thread is NOT another thread about f****** Atlantis, ok?

Thank you.

[MARAB0D]

jmccr8, on 23 February 2010 - 03:56 AM, said:

I was just reading an article at History News Network by George Erikson:Who Were The Earliest Americans.In the article he discusses that there were several pre-clovis groups of people that had traveled by boat to America.He states that some groups were of African,European,and Polinesian extraction.He also infers that these groups of people had been present in parts of North and South America before 12,000bp.
  If these groups of people did arrive by boat it does not seem unreasonable that they could travel back and forth developing trade.It would also be reasonable to suggest that they could have exchanged knowledge with repect to building,art,science,and religion.Over a period of time as change of power occurs so would modification of social structure and myths,the knowledge of other cultures in different parts of the world may still have been available to these later cultures and it is posible that they were not traversing the unknown as we are assuming today.jmccr8

This does not mean they necessarily were crossing Atlantic in the boats! Before the Deluge the water levels were at least 30m lower than today, which was exposing multiple islands instead of what now is continental shelf. Even today the distance between Asia and America is something like 43 km and there are islands half-way, so one can make it in some 8 hours of rowing on a common yawl @ 5km/h, while a canoe is much faster and can do 20 or even 30 km/h. The same abundance of island at low waters allowed the Africans to reach the middle of Pacific (Melanesia) and from there it is a comparatively short distance to South America, so maybe the contact was going other way, to the East.

[MARAB0D]

Abramelin, on 23 February 2010 - 04:44 AM, said:

Hello everyone.

This thread is NOT another thread about f****** Atlantis, ok?

Thank you.

I think this problem can be also fixed from your end, without poking the others - say to try some tranquilliser.

[Piney]

The Puzzler, on 21 February 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

Hey look Abe, I found a book.

THE AMERICAN DISCOVERY OF EUROPE

http://search.barnes...e/9780252031526

by this guy, could hardly knock his credentials:

Jack D. Forbes is professor of Native American studies and anthropology emeritus at the University of California, Davis. He is the author or editor of seventeen books, including Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples.

Some from the book review:

Synopsis
An independent and indigenous revision of established history

The American Discovery of Europe investigates the voyages of America’s Native peoples to the European continent before Columbus’s 1492 arrival in the “New World.” The product of over twenty years of exhaustive research in libraries throughout Europe and the United States, Jack D. Forbes employs a vast number of primary and secondary sources to paint a clear picture of the diverse and complex societies that comprised the Americas before 1492 and reveals the surprising Native American involvements in maritime trade and exploration.

Starting with an encounter by Columbus himself with mysterious people who had apparently been carried across the Atlantic on favorable currents, Forbes proceeds to a detailed discussion of ocean currents and then to exploring the seagoing expertise of early Americans in the Caribbean, on the coasts of Greenland, and beyond. He also discusses theories of ancient migrations, the evidence for human origins in the Americas, and other early visitors coming from Europe to America, including the Norse. The book closes with a discussion of Native travelers to Europe after 1493, when they came mostly as slaves. The provocative, extensively documented, and heartfelt conclusions of The American Discovery of Europe present an open challenge to received historical wisdom. This book will be of lasting importance to Native people and redefine the way future scholarship views American history.


Elizabeth Salt Copyright 2007 Reed Business Information - Library Journal

How much contact did Native Americans have with Europe in both the pre-Columbian and immediate post-contact time periods? Forbes (Native American studies & anthropology, emeritus, Univ. of California, Davis; Africans and Native Americans) attempts to make the case that a great deal of interaction occurred. He describes both supposed planned voyages and accidental trips (canoes being blown east by storms) by Native Americans to Europe during the centuries before Columbus's voyage in 1492. While Forbes thoroughly documents his sources, he makes frequent wide-ranging assumptions related to pre-Columbian Native American voyages based upon small bits of possible evidence. Post-contact reports of the kidnapping, enslavement, and shipment of significant numbers of indigenous American people to Europe by the Portuguese, Spanish, English, and Dutch in the 16th and 17th centuries are generally better documented and more widely accepted by anthropologists and historians.


A possibility it seems.

  I know Jack personally. He has great credentials but he makes a lot of crap up. His integrity is shot even with members of his own tribe. One time he had Indians riding dinosaurs, another time he was backing Barry Fell.   
  The possiblity that the Arawak-Taino crossed the Atlantic is very possible. Some archaeologist believe they traded as far as North Carolina in their outrigger canoes. Indians also have a great wanderlust and it was not unusual to find in historical records that someone from a faraway tribe showed up at a location claiming he was "only on a hunting trip".   
  Nice post Abe!  


Lapiche

[jmccr8]

marabod, on 23 February 2010 - 04:58 AM, said:

This does not mean they necessarily were crossing Atlantic in the boats! Before the Deluge the water levels were at least 30m lower than today, which was exposing multiple islands instead of what now is continental shelf. Even today the distance between Asia and America is something like 43 km and there are islands half-way, so one can make it in some 8 hours of rowing on a common yawl @ 5km/h, while a canoe is much faster and can do 20 or even 30 km/h. The same abundance of island at low waters allowed the Africans to reach the middle of Pacific (Melanesia) and from there it is a comparatively short distance to South America, so maybe the contact was going other way, to the East.

  Hello Marabod,
  Yes what you say is feisable and I might have said something along those lines but I was just speaking in reference to the article that I had read.I did not want to pursue anything too far off the article as I have a tendancy to kill threads with some of my reponses so I am trying to exercise some discression in my approach to certain subjects.I think that this is an interesting thread and would like to see how it developes.Thank jmccr8

[TheSearcher]

Piney, on 23 February 2010 - 05:10 AM, said:

I know Jack personally. He has great credentials but he makes a lot of crap up. His integrity is shot even with members of his own tribe. One time he had Indians riding dinosaurs, another time he was backing Barry Fell.   
  The possiblity that the Arawak-Taino crossed the Atlantic is very possible. Some archaeologist believe they traded as far as North Carolina in their outrigger canoes. Indians also have a great wanderlust and it was not unusual to find in historical records that someone from a faraway tribe showed up at a location claiming he was "only on a hunting trip".   
  Nice post Abe!  


Lapiche

But there is still a difference between North Carolina, which is basically still the same continent and crossing the Atlantic Ocean. This said, it still is an interesting idea to entertain.

@ Marabod : What deluge are we talking about here?

[Qoais]

Here again, we have no scientific evidence that people had the knowledge of how to build ocean going "boats" that far back in time.  But - just because there's no evidence doesn't mean they didn't have the knowledge, it just means we can't prove it.

[MARAB0D]

TheSearcher, on 23 February 2010 - 06:39 AM, said:

@ Marabod : What deluge are we talking about here?

The Biblical one (12,000 years ago, we have many legends of it worldwide) and the one before it (14,000 years ago). Those which are imprinted in Greenland ice core. If your search for the drilling of it you would find this out. The total gain in sea level during the thawing, associated witgh these two is about 30 m, while total sea level rise since the last IceAge is 108-110 m with following recent fall of 10 m. I thought it was a common domain information.

[TheSearcher]

marabod, on 23 February 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

The Biblical one (12,000 years ago, we have many legends of it worldwide) and the one before it (14,000 years ago). Those which are imprinted in Greenland ice core. If your search for the drilling of it you would find this out. The total gain in sea level during the thawing, associated witgh these two is about 30 m, while total sea level rise since the last IceAge is 108-110 m with following recent fall of 10 m. I thought it was a common domain information.

Just wanting to make sure we talk about the same thing, that's all. Besides, I thought that was around 18.000 years ago, when the ice sheets from the most recent glacial maximum started melting, but I could have my numbers wrong.

Edited by TheSearcher, 23 February 2010 - 08:20 AM.

[prairiechickin]

marabod, on 23 February 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

The Biblical one (12,000 years ago, we have many legends of it worldwide) and the one before it (14,000 years ago). Those which are imprinted in Greenland ice core. If your search for the drilling of it you would find this out. The total gain in sea level during the thawing, associated witgh these two is about 30 m, while total sea level rise since the last IceAge is 108-110 m with following recent fall of 10 m. I thought it was a common domain information.

I'm not sure what this jibberish is supposed to convey, but global sea levels bottomed out around 20,000 years ago due to extensive glaciation.  They were at that point around 130 m lower than today.  As the ice melted and ran back into the ocean, levels rose to their cureent levels around 10,000 years ago.

[Harte]

[quote name='marabod' date='22 February 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1266881828' post='3300702']
Please, consider the following: Plato does not simply "mention" Atlantis or place it somewhere out of reach; he refers to the message from Solon's diaries/memoirs.[/quote]
If you read Timaeus, you'll see that this is simply not the case.

[quote] These memoirs existed for 200 years BEFORE Plato and were known among the educated Greeks.[/quote]
Same as above.  No such "diaries" mentioning this tale have ever even been hinted at, much less found or "well known" to anyone at all, even Plato.

[quote] Some copies of them were also existing centuries AFTER Plato, and were used by Plutarch to write Solon's Biography.[/quote]
Plutarch's "source" was Plato, not Solon.

[quote] This means if Plato lied about a source, then we would sure had the contemporary remarks blaming him in lying, but we do not have them.[/quote]
Plato was not an historian.  Why would anyone accuse him of "lying" when everyone that read his work knew he was using allegory?

Like I said, if you read the other dialogues, you'll come to find Timaeus less palatable as a source for factual information.

[/quote]In order to accuse Plato in telling lies one has to establish first that the source was referred falsely. This "factual" note from Timaeus has nothing in relation to what Plato himself was then making up of Atlantis, as when he was making it up, he did not refer to any source at all. It is the same as I refer to Napoleon's memoirs and tell about the battle of Waterloo - and then start to express my own fantasies about this battle without further referring to Napoleon. Different things![/quote]
Please check out this quote from The Republic:
[quote]
How then may we devise one of those needful falsehoods of which we lately spoke --just one royal lie which may deceive the rulers, if that be possible, and at any rate the rest of the city?

What sort of lie? he said.
Nothing new, I replied; only an old Phoenician tale of what has often occurred before now in other places, (as the poets say, and have made the world believe,) though not in our time, and I do not know whether such an event could ever happen again, or could now even be made probable, if it did. [/quote]
[url="http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.4.iii.html"]Source[/url] (Near the bottom of the page.)

[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Plato+Noble+lie&aq=f&aqi=g3&oq="]Plato believes in the "noble lie"[/url] as a very useful instructional tool.

Everyone in his time (and after) that read his works knew this.

Harte

[Corp]

marabod, on 23 February 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

The Biblical one (12,000 years ago, we have many legends of it worldwide) and the one before it (14,000 years ago). Those which are imprinted in Greenland ice core. If your search for the drilling of it you would find this out. The total gain in sea level during the thawing, associated witgh these two is about 30 m, while total sea level rise since the last IceAge is 108-110 m with following recent fall of 10 m. I thought it was a common domain information.

I don't think any of the big civilization were in place 12,000 years ago. So who would be making these trips across the islands?

[Abramelin]

Piney, on 23 February 2010 - 05:10 AM, said:

  I know Jack personally. He has great credentials but he makes a lot of crap up. His integrity is shot even with members of his own tribe. One time he had Indians riding dinosaurs, another time he was backing Barry Fell.   
  The possiblity that the Arawak-Taino crossed the Atlantic is very possible. Some archaeologist believe they traded as far as North Carolina in their outrigger canoes. Indians also have a great wanderlust and it was not unusual to find in historical records that someone from a faraway tribe showed up at a location claiming he was "only on a hunting trip".   
  Nice post Abe!  


Lapiche

YW Lapiche.

I read a few chapters of his book online, and I agree with you... I wasn't impresssed.

Instead we better read the PDF's in the OP.

Btw, it would be nice if you can post something here about the contacts of the Arawak - Taino  (-Carib?) with North Carolina.