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More water at Giza


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#1    cladking

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:25 AM

There's a book by John Greaves from 1638 which says that there is a round
well some 20' deep in G1.  Incredibly such a well is not known today and no
one seems to be looking for it.  There is a square well in the subterranean
chamber which has been cleared and even deepened by Vyse but no suggestion
that this was ever round.  

It's difficult to be certain what this means since information and data about
the pyramid is difficult to come by.  Even simple questions have proven diff-
icult to get definitive answers though there's no shortage of opinion and guesses.
I think I have it on fairly good authority that the entire pyramid has been
cleaned with the exception of a hole in the queens chamber and the "well" in
the grotto.  If there really is a deep round well in G1 this would obviously
be the place to look.  

The amount of evidence for water here just keeps getting deeper and deeper.  
Egyptologists believe a moat surrounded Djoser's Pyramid.  It has been reported
that there is a sewer in the workmen's village at Giza.  There are reportedly
caves reaching back under the pyramids from the tomb of the birds. There's wa-
ter erosion on the Sphinx that more people are claiming is run-off from above.
Egyptologists have suggested the great accuracy in the leveling of G1 could on-
ly be accomplished by using water. There is a water collection system surrounding
G1 that delivered water right to the cliff face at the most opportune position
for counterweight runs that would lift stone up toward the G1 causeway from the
Sphinx quarry.  These counterweight runs are still in evidence and are even sug-
gested by Manetho when he said that stones were moved up to the pyramids 300' at
a time.  There is water erosion in man made passages under Giza! There are exten-
sive passages carved under here which quite probably followed natural caverns. There
is clear water under this area.  Giza was called Rosteau by the Egyptians which
means "mouth of caverns".  There is extensive and total confirmation of all this
in the Pyramid Texts which is the only writing known to have been left top us by
the PYRAMID BUILDERS.  There's even a statue in the workmen's village to the "Over-
seer of the Boats of Neith".  There's even water erosion in the canal that leads
to the cliff face from the base of G1.

When the Pyramid Texts talks about building pyramids they talk about getting out
the ropes and boats.  Even the crews who built the pyramids were named after
parts of boats.  The PT also speaks of rainbows adorning the dead king.  These all
require water.  There's also the missing round well that is at least 20' deep.  There
are natural caves incorp[orated right into the pyramid.  There's a deep fissure just
to the north of G1  that has never been excavated to the bottom.  There is a cave un-
der here being excavated by Hawass.

The crested ibis represented the dead king and this bird is the closest thing on
earth to a flying rainbow.  

http://images.google...US357US357&um=1

This "crested akh-bird" represents the king in heaven or as Lehner says;

"Joining the stars the king becomes an akh. Akh is often translated as "spirit" or "spirit state". It derives from the term for radiant light, written with the crested ibis as though the crest transforms the ordinary ibis bird of the ba."

pg 24 -Complete Pyramids.

http://books.google....pyramid&f=false

I can no longer even inmagine why these facts are simply dismissed.  It's
probably not an unexplained mystery though because people have become more
superstitious than ever before.  Only things which are agreed upon can be
true and everything else is to be dismissed.  

Greaves said on page 118;

"At the end of it, on the right hand, is the well mentioned by Pliny; the which is circular, and not square; as the Arabian writers describe: the diameter of it exceeds three feet; the sides are lined with white marble, asnd the descent into it is by fastening the hands and feet into little open spaces cut in the sides within, opposite and answerable to no one other, in a perpendicular."

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#2    The Puzzler

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 12:30 PM

I'm not exactly sure whether this has any relation to what you say but it sounds like it might. Recently while investigating Michael Collins book The Cygnus Mystery which points to ancient cultures having an even more ancient knowledge of the constellation Cygnus and I recall 2 wells being mentioned, here is reference to what the wells could mean:
The Hall of Records Entrance. Visiting Egypt to carefully examine the relationship between Cygnus and the Giza monuments, Collins was eventually led to a sacred well in a limited-access Muslim cemetery at Giza. The well, called Beer el-Samman, is located about 300 yards south of the right front paw of the Sphinx. A village elder told Collins that the well was "the entrance to Giza's Duat-underworld." The well is a carefully-formed, brick-lined, deep artisan well still used today and there is evidence that blocked passages lie at its base. Interestingly, if the remaining stars of Cygnus are placed over Giza, all of them fall on sacred sites at Giza. The star forming the mouth of the celestial bird Cygnus, Albiero, lies at Gebel Ghibli, the sacred knoll south of the Sphinx, quite close to the well of Beer el-Samman. The correspondence between the idea that the well is the entrance to the underworld and its location at the mouth of the celestial bird Cygnus is intriguing.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3    The Puzzler

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 12:31 PM

Sorry, forgot the link to that above piece:

http://www.mysteriou...ofrecordsa.html

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4    SlimJim22

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:28 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 March 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'm not exactly sure whether this has any relation to what you say but it sounds like it might. Recently while investigating Michael Collins book The Cygnus Mystery which points to ancient cultures having an even more ancient knowledge of the constellation Cygnus and I recall 2 wells being mentioned, here is reference to what the wells could mean:
The Hall of Records Entrance. Visiting Egypt to carefully examine the relationship between Cygnus and the Giza monuments, Collins was eventually led to a sacred well in a limited-access Muslim cemetery at Giza. The well, called Beer el-Samman, is located about 300 yards south of the right front paw of the Sphinx. A village elder told Collins that the well was "the entrance to Giza's Duat-underworld." The well is a carefully-formed, brick-lined, deep artisan well still used today and there is evidence that blocked passages lie at its base. Interestingly, if the remaining stars of Cygnus are placed over Giza, all of them fall on sacred sites at Giza. The star forming the mouth of the celestial bird Cygnus, Albiero, lies at Gebel Ghibli, the sacred knoll south of the Sphinx, quite close to the well of Beer el-Samman. The correspondence between the idea that the well is the entrance to the underworld and its location at the mouth of the celestial bird Cygnus is intriguing.


It certainly is. I've been working on the assumption that the GP is the omphalos or navel of the world. The reason being it is almost perfectly situated at the middle of the four points of the compass. It is literally where the orient meets the occident. Therefore the presence of a well is not that surprising as it is the most common physical symbol to represent the navel. It is very possible that it could have led to the Duat or Halls of Amenti whether literally or metaphorically through the inducement of trance or alternative consciousness. Thanks to you both for bringing it up.

I can't remember where I read it, probanly on the fringe but is it possible that crcodiles rolling in silica (sand) could have produced a mild electrical charge. Crocodiles seem to have impressive propoerties, were worshipped through Sobekh and were even buried in crocodile graveyards. Can you shed light or debunk this possibility?

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#5    cladking

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:37 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 March 2010 - 12:31 PM, said:

Sorry, forgot the link to that above piece:

http://www.mysteriou...ofrecordsa.html


It's interesting that this well is on high ground.  I'm paying
a lot more attention to Andrew Collins these past several months.
I wasn't aware of this well so it's most interesting to me. The
blocked passages at the bottom sounds interesting as well.  

Of course it can't be the one described by Greaves since it is
definitively within the pyramid.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#6    cladking

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:40 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 04 March 2010 - 01:28 PM, said:

It certainly is. I've been working on the assumption that the GP is the omphalos or navel of the world. The reason being it is almost perfectly situated at the middle of the four points of the compass. It is literally where the orient meets the occident. Therefore the presence of a well is not that surprising as it is the most common physical symbol to represent the navel. It is very possible that it could have led to the Duat or Halls of Amenti whether literally or metaphorically through the inducement of trance or alternative consciousness. Thanks to you both for bringing it up.

I can't remember where I read it, probanly on the fringe but is it possible that crcodiles rolling in silica (sand) could have produced a mild electrical charge. Crocodiles seem to have impressive propoerties, were worshipped through Sobekh and were even buried in crocodile graveyards. Can you shed light or debunk this possibility?


Not I, but there's far more in the world than people generally think.  The
electric eel makes enough current that it can even kill.  Many animals do
things that we don't understand.  Perhaps crocs use an electric charge for
some purpose we can't even imagine.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#7    cladking

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 06:00 AM

http://cc.bingj.com/...44fc75,e391236f

I still don't believe the pyramid was a pump and this theory
has some major flaws but John Cadman does make a lot of inter-
esting points and observations.  He also notes extensive water
erosion in the subterranean chamber.

One thing is sure and that's that the idea that this chamber is
merely an unfinished burialk chamber is absurd.  I don't know
what it is but I know one thing it most probably was not.  

Here is his summary.  While I don't endorse it necessarilty it
certainly adds weight to the concept that they had water here;

Quote

SUMMARY

The walled enclosure around the Great Pyramid was a moat.

The water supply for the moat provided more water than the Great Pyramid consumed.

The causeway removed the excess water.

The subterranean chamber is not an air compression chamber. (Kunkel)1

The water-saturated subterranean chamber transmits shock waves to the ceiling.

There was an air/gas removal line in the northwest area of the subterranean chamber.

The air/gas removal line is connected to the niche in the Queen's chamber.

The air/gas removal line also perked water into Queen's chamber.

The well shaft functions as water return line from the Queen's chamber.

The well shaft minimizes the reverse pulse in the descending passage.

The grotto functioned as an expansion chamber to limit reverse pulse.

The subterranean chamber's antechamber functioned as an acoustic filter.

There is water output through the “dead end” shaft.

The water output may have been connected to with the "water shaft".

There is a check valve at the end of the ”dead end” shaft.

A gate valve was the fine-tuning mechanism for the standing wave in the wastegate line.

The pit is connected via tunnel to a wastegate in front of the "Sphinx Temple" (Nile River).


Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#8    cladking

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 04:39 AM

Perhaps people are missing the point here.  

There is an impossibility standing right on the Giza Plateau today.  It's
staring us in the face and is undeniable.  When it was built there were two
impossibilities on the Giza Plateau.  There was the pyramid and there was
water.  Lots of water.  Since this plateau is 225' above sea level there is
no known way that water might have been there.  

It seems to me that two impossibilities in the same place at the same time
add up to far more than a coincidence. It seems that water on the plateau is
virtual proof that it was integral to the process of building the pyramid.  

Or are we to revert to a third impossibility; aliens.  Aliens might well need
a pyramid for their own purposes and might need lots of water for the long
trip home.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#9    aquatus1

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 02:20 PM

Is "You are wrong." a fourth impossibility?


#10    Leonardo

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 03:57 PM

View Postcladking, on 06 March 2010 - 04:39 AM, said:

Perhaps people are missing the point here.  

There is an impossibility standing right on the Giza Plateau today.  It's
staring us in the face and is undeniable.  When it was built there were two
impossibilities on the Giza Plateau.  There was the pyramid and there was
water.  Lots of water.  Since this plateau is 225' above sea level there is
no known way that water might have been there.  

I take it you also believe there is no known way the water (at 12,500' above sea level) that makes up Lake Titicaca might be where it is as well, Cladking?

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#11    cladking

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 04:48 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 06 March 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

I take it you also believe there is no known way the water (at 12,500' above sea level) that makes up Lake Titicaca might be where it is as well, Cladking?


It's not height that makes water impossible to exist it's the
conditions.  Lake Titicaca is at great altitude and is a large
lake but the drainage basin is more than 20,000 mi ^ 2.  Any
water that exists anywhere in this area at the surface by any
cause is likely to end up in the lake.  If it rains or snows
then the water ends up in the lake.  

Lake Khufu on the other hand is in a desert.  In fact since
this desert is riddled under it with caves one has to suspect
that with no intervention any water that started puddling here
would quickly be sucked away underground to never be seen again
on the plateau.  But even if the caves weren't here and there
was some means to catch ambient water like rainfall there is on-
ly about a two square mile area of desert being drained into
Giza.  There's no evidence that the terrain was once different
or that the Egyptians captured and stored water and there's very
little water that can be captured and stored in a desert on a
hilltop.  Yet we have all this evidence of massive quantities of
water here but no way for it to get here.  

This might be an even greater impossibility than the pyramid it-
self.  There is simply no known way that they might have had water.  
Oh sure, there are ways it might occur in theory but most of these
are far more complex or improbable than any reason I might suggest.  
There's very little chance that it was the result of mans' work since
there are no canals and no dams in evidence.  

This leaves only a natural means.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#12    cladking

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 04:59 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 06 March 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Is "You are wrong." a fourth impossibility?

Actually this probably comes much closer to a certainty in most instances.  ;)

I believe people are grossly underestimating the difficulty of building a
6  1/2 million ton pyramid with primitive technology.  I believe they are
inappropriately disregarding many of the facts related to Giza and the pre-
sense of water at one time.  I further believe that people are expecting there
to be a great deal of evidence for alien involvement had such occurred where
there might be very little.  

At least on these first two points the facts have been shown repeatedly to
be on my side.  The third one might always be an imponderable if no aliens
ever visited in the past.  

We're still left with water and a pyramid. Is there some third factor
that caused them both or did one cause the other?

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#13    cladking

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:27 PM

They also had a workmen's village on the plateau that housed some
8,000.  The worldwide average for water usage is 34 gal/ day per cap-
ita. That's a quarter million gallons per day or 1,000 tons of water
per day for the village alone.  

Obviously people in those days wouldn't have used the quantities of
water we do unless they had ready access but it needs to be appreci-
ated that they did need vast amounts of water and if it wasn't right
there then it had to be lifted 200' from the river.  This is in addi-
tion to the water that the men needed who were actually working on the
pyramid.  

It seems that water is key here.  Sure, there are ways they could have
worked without water but all the evidence says they did have water. The
evidence says they collected water at the pyramid base and funneled it
to the cliff face counterweights.  The evidence says that the stones in
the pyramid were lifted by counterweights.  If water at the pyramid base
is impossible then water 80' above the pyramid base isn't much more im-
possible so there's a tiny leap from suggesting the stones moved up ramps
to the base of the pyramid dragged by counterweights to saying the stones
moved up the side of the pyramid dragged by counterweights.  Remember the
evidence says counterweights dragged the stones up the suide so why not
water for ballast?  

These are simple facts.  The information is all out there in the literature
and still sitting right on the plateau.  It's a very logical step from the
evidence to an actual possibility of how this job was done rather than just
an assumption dating to the 19th century.  We know things today that weren't
known when ramps were first assumed.  

If Petrie were alive today he would be appalled by the state of egyptology;
not that they're apparently wrong but that they prefer to ignore the evidence.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#14    sinewave

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 12:31 AM

Isn't the Nile one of the largest water sheds in the world? And isn't it well established that the fertile strip around the Nile was much wider in the classical era?  Further, aren't the pyramids just a few miles from the river?  Given all of that, why wouldn't there have been water there?  Are we discussing the cold water geyser theory again?


#15    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 01:12 AM

Quote

Are we discussing the cold water geyser theory again?

It's wholly unnecessary to discuss it at all.  

What is necessary is explaining how there can be copious quantities
of water known to have been at the base of G1.  What is needed is any
sort of explanation for  the actual evidence.

Egyptology has been trying to prove assumptions for 150 years and have
failed because those assumptions are in error.  It's past time to try
to determine the facts of the case.  

View Postsinewave, on 07 March 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:

Isn't the Nile one of the largest water sheds in the world? And isn't it well established that the fertile strip around the Nile was much wider in the classical era?  Further, aren't the pyramids just a few miles from the river?  Given all of that, why wouldn't there have been water there?

Yes.  There's always sufficient water in the Nile for anything they'd
have needed on the plateau.  Perhaps they even had bucket brigades all
the way from the Nile to the pyramid top.  But there are problems with
such a concept.  How and why would they come up with the idea of hauling
water up to run the city, flush the sewers, and cause the copious water
erosion?  The number of men and amount of work necessary to do this is
astronomincal.  Sure it would be easier to build the pyramid using this
method than ramps but it's not reasonable to believe ancient people would
haul enough water to flush sewers.  It's certainly not even possible to
haul enough water to cause the water erosion in man made passages.  

All this suggests that the water was on the hilltop.  The evidence sug-
gests that the water came up from below since this is where the water
erosion is.  There's no logical reason to think that the water came from
the Nile and no evidence to support it.  

We know the ramps took stones to the base of the pyramid and that they
had water at the base of the pyramid.  Ramps on the pyramid have been
essentially disproven though the professionals aren't even trying to keep
up.  

The Nile wasn't significantly wider since about 3000 BC and even there
it was still confined to relatively few channels in the bottom of the valley.
You have to go back a few thousand more years before you get to the point
that the entire valley was flooded.  Carbon dating places the pyramids at
around 2750 BC and at that time conditions were similar to the modern era
to 1964.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.




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