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Zeitgeist Documentary claims regarding 9/11


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#31    The Narcisse

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:20 PM

View PostScott G, on 26 March 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

No. The fact that the information is on the internet doesn't mean that it originated there. Have you heard of Able Danger? If not, you may want to take a look at the wiki entry on it:
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Able_Danger


I do not see how this proves anything other than what I have stated before. 9/11 happened because our government was ill prepared, arrogant and ignorant about the real threat. Nowhere on this page (which is from the highly reliable Wikipedia) does it state that anyone in our government had knowledge of the ATTACKS prior to 9/11. In fact, it just simply states that we MAY have known that there were suspected terrorists in our country at the time, which was probably commonplace then and is probably still so now. Again hearing this information AFTER the fact shines a different (possibly incorrect) light on it. Knowing what we know about Atta now, makes it seem impossible for him to not have been recognized for the evil he was planning and arrested or deported. But the truth is, in 2000 if he was on a list of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives in the US then he was just another name. Since no DIRECT mention of the date/time/method of the attacks were ever attributed to him he fell through the cracks. Just like so many other criminals do everyday in every country across the globe. He was not erased from memory to help cover the asses of the government who wanted to create a reason to invade the middle east.

This just feels like more conclusion jumping to me. The fact that a chart may or may not have existed with some dude's name on it doesn't make my mind leap to "the government MURDERED thousands of people as part of a massive global conspiracy."

#32    illuminol

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:48 AM

Osama bin laden is dead. Bhutto.
Benazir bhutto gives an interview before her assasination - she clearly states that there is a force at work to make sure there is no end to chaos war and the collapse of democracy....She also states that osama bin laden was murdered.
RIP Benazir Bhutto.  It's clear that she was another key figure, murdered because she told the truth. It is all connected and the confusion in the details of 9/11 is meant to distract you. After listening to and assessing the implications of key figures who are no longer with us, It appears that they are killed after they expose their own inside knowledge of internal government corruption and the shadow support and financing of 'extremist' groups. why are they not heard? It isn't as these people are crazy, in fact they are very calm and passionate in their delivery and they know they are probably going to die. so they do something good for the people and let the truth be known.

Edited by illuminol, 27 March 2010 - 01:02 AM.


#33    Q24

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:54 AM

View PostThe Narcisse, on 26 March 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

And where exactly does this "evidence" come from? Top Secret information being leaked after the fact onto the internet? That's not exactly a "reliable" source.
The list of evidence that I aked if you are aware of  comes from pulic hearings, congressional investigations, newspaper reports, FBI and CIA agents, government sources, official declassified or released documents and recordings, etc.

I assure you that the sources are all reliable and are available online for research if you care to look.  None of it is Top Secret… well, except for the Operation Northwoods document before it was declassified in 1997 and published by the National Security Archive.


View PostThe Narcisse, on 26 March 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

An intelligence briefing stating somethinhg that "Bin Laden wanted to Hijack a US Aircraft" and such ONE month before the attack is supposed to say what? That sounds VERY generalized to me. It only seems ominous and foreboding now because NOW we know the context. It's not as though somebody said "Bin Laden is going to hijack 4 airplanes on September 11th, 2001 at this time and it will be these flights..." what on Earth could possibly be done to make sure that EVERY airport and EVERY flight was terrorist free every single day? Do you think that the new FAA restrictions would have went over well in August 2001 if the government just came out and said they had to be followed?
Have you read the brief?  If not, here is the link and some more excerpts: -


Presidential Brief: Bin Laden Determined To Strike in US – 6 August 2001
http://www.cnn.com/2.../whitehouse.pdf
(declassified 10 April 2004)

  • Bin Laden since 1997 has wanted to carry out terrorist attacks in the US
  • “his followers would follow the example of World Trade Centre bomber Ramzi Yousef”
  • Bin Laden told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington
  • Bin Laden was planning to exploit the operative’s access to the US
  • Bin Ladin wanted to hijack a US aircraft
  • “FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings

I do quite agree that the details are not specific down to the level of times, dates and precise airports… but there are still a lot of warning there and I ask, what would you have done with this information?  Here’s what I would have done on the basis of the details that were known: -

  • Place Bin Laden related cases as a priority.
  • Increase surveillance of suspect foreign nationals.
  • Have all intelligence on Al Qaeda shared between the FBI, CIA and military.
  • Inform the FAA and have aircraft security increased by keeping cockpit doors locked.

The President did not implement any of these commonsensical actions and I do understand that one conclusion could be that it was due to laziness, incompetence or arrogance.  What turns me away from that conclusion is, in part, when we find out what was going on behind the scenes: -

  • FBI claims Bin Laden inquiry was frustrated
    http://www.guardian....tan.september11
    “FBI and military intelligence officials in Washington say they were prevented for political reasons from carrying out full investigations into members of the Bin Laden family in the US before the terrorist attacks of September 11.  U.S. intelligence agencies have come under criticism for their wholesale failure to predict the catastrophe at the World Trade Centre. But some are complaining that their hands were tied. … They said the restrictions became worse after the Bush administration took over this year. The intelligence agencies had been told to "back off" from investigations… ”

  • Coleen Rowley's Memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller
    http://www.time.com/...20603/memo.html
    “It is obvious, from my firsthand knowledge of the events and the detailed documentation that exists, that the agents in Minneapolis who were closest to the action and in the best position to gauge the situation locally, did fully appreciate the terrorist risk/danger posed by Moussaoui and his possible co-conspirators even prior to September 11th. … the FBI Supervisory Special Agent (SSA) who was the one most involved in the Moussaoui matter and who, up to that point, seemed to have been consistently, almost deliberately thwarting the Minneapolis FBI agents' efforts.”

So we see it’s not just that sensible responses were not being carried out but that measures were being taken in the exact opposite direction.  This should not be instantly excused as incompetence on behalf of the decision-makers, rather it should be treated with downright suspicion by any vigilant citizen.


View PostThe Narcisse, on 26 March 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

None of the evidence that you state convinces me that this was an "inside job". Instead, as I said before, it convinces me that our government is lazy, incompetent and arrogant.
I notice above that you addressed only one piece of evidence in isolation (one of the weakest pieces).  Any single piece, or even a group, of evidence can be excused or even cast off as coincidence, I agree.  But how many suspect occurrences can there be in regard to a single event before one must accept that simple coincidence is not the driving force?  There are literally hundreds of these peculiarities surrounding every aspect of 9/11.  The only way to see the “inside job” is when all are understood and viewed simultaneously to provide the complete picture.

Take what I said above about authorities being forced to act in the opposite way to that expected and start to add to it all of the other evidence that I previously mentioned.  Two of the hijackers were living with an FBI informant.  Five of the hijackers resided right outside the gates of the NSA.  Pakistani intelligence funded the hijackers.  Israeli intelligence was on the scene during the attacks.  There have been CIA/Al Qaeda double-agents.  The U.S. military has planned false flag terror before.  The individuals who came to power in the U.S. needed a pretext.  Really think about what each fact means and then consider it all together.


View PostThe Narcisse, on 26 March 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

What exactly was the purpose of this conspiracy anyway? To gain access to the oil fields in Iraq? Because we don't have that. And how far back in time does this conspiracy go? 1 President? 2 Presidents? 3? It's not plausible that Bush was able to not only come up with this evil scheme but also have it carried out with less than a year in office. Convincing people in the CIA, and the FBI and the military that this was what was best thing for our country and getting them firmly on board and behind MURDERING thousands of Americans for what would essentially turn out to be nothing? Sorry but this just seems ridiculous.
Just to get this out of the way first – click the link to Operation Northwoods in my signature if you want to know what the U.S. military are capable of.  Also whilst you read the below, consider what your life is worth next to the future pre-eminence of your country.

Now we could to and fro over the benefits of invading the Middle East but I hope you agree that any discussion between us would be irrelevant next to what U.S. policy-makers decide is important.  Before we get onto that, let me address one more of your concerns by stating the obvious that those with these visions were not born the day that Bush came to power in 2001, and neither did their political careers begin on that day.  So what did the U.S. policy-makers find important?

“In the Middle East and Southwest Asia, our overall objective is to remain the predominant outside power in the region and preserve U.S. and Western access to the region's oil.”
Paul Wolfowitz, 1992

“I can't think of a time when we've had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.”
Dick Cheney, 1998

“… to play a more permanent role in Gulf…”
“… a substantial American force presence in the Gulf…”
“… forward-based forces in the region…”
“… longstanding American interests in the region.”
“… seek to augment the forces already in the region…”

PNAC (from which seventeen prominent members of the Bush administration would come), 2000

And this is what the U.S. pretexts are all about, from Afghanistan to Iraq to the current pressure on Iran – control of energy resources and remaining the world’s predominant power.
Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#34    illuminol

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:20 AM

join the dots...even if it's half true, we, the little people are in deep trouble. I'm sorry to even think along these terms but mainstream media cannot be trusted. this we know.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fx2lRSArIY&feature=related"]the bin laden tape..a warning to america but by who?[/url]

join the dots....

http://www.stewwebb.com/Satanism%20Rockefeller's%20NWO%20Agenda.html
[/quote]

#35    illuminol

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:49 AM

Q24 - thanks for your thought provoking posts. x

#36    illuminol

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:56 AM

View PostThe Narcisse, on 26 March 2010 - 06:20 PM, said:

This just feels like more conclusion jumping to me. The fact that a chart may or may not have existed with some dude's name on it doesn't make my mind leap to "the government MURDERED thousands of people as part of a massive global conspiracy."

when you realise that the government is not really a government but a puppet show, and you are ready to do some independant thinking, the possible answers will make you ill. they did me. I get physically sick when i realise how expendable people are. Population reduction is big on the agenda. i believe a few thousand people mean nothing when it comes to the grand agenda.  As i've said before - I hope me and millions of others are wrong about the root cause of this very sick system.

Edited by illuminol, 27 March 2010 - 01:56 AM.


#37    Scott G

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 02:18 AM

Getting closer to a final draft for my essay. Here's the latest...

Was 9/11 an inside job?


"19 Hijackers, directed by Osama B. Laden, took over 4 Commercial Jets with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit 75% of their targets…. The 911 Commission found that there were no warnings for this act of Terrorism..." (Zeitgeist, 43:33)

Although this is commonly accepted as the "official story", there are several anomalies that suggest 9/11 was an inside job. I examine the following claims above in this light.
"The 911 Commission found that there were no warnings for this act of Terrorism…"

First, let's examine the claim that there were no warnings. The U.S. Secretary of State on 9/11 was Condoleeza Rice. Shortly after 9/11, she stated:
"I don't think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile". (44:03)

Steve Fainaru and James Grivaldi of the Washington Post also bring up a statement from FBI Director Robert Mueller:
"Three days after the attack on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III described reports that several of the hijackers had received flight training in the United States as "news, quite obviously," adding, "If we had understood that to be the case, we would have -- perhaps one could have averted this." (http://www.washingto...10840-2001Sep22)

However, it's now clear that federal authorities -had- been aware of it. In fact, as the washington post article explains in its introduction, federal authorities had known for years that suspected terrorists with ties to bin Laden were receiving flight training at schools in the U.S. and abroad. The article continues:
"A senior government official yesterday acknowledged law enforcement officials were aware that fewer than a dozen people with links to bin Laden had attended U.S. flight schools. However, the official said there was no information to indicate the flight students had been planning suicide hijacking attacks.
"We were unable to marry any information from investigations or the intelligence community that talked to their use of this expertise in the events that we saw unfold on the 11th," the official said."
This is contradicted, however, by a highly classified operation called "Able Danger". As an article from Global Research points out:
"According to Army reserve Lieutenant-Colonel Anthony Shaffer, a top secret Pentagon project code-named Able Danger had identified Atta and three other 9/11 hijackers as members of an al-Qaida cell more than a year before the attacks.
Able Danger was an 18-month highly classified operation tasked, according to Shaffer, with “developing targeting information for al-Qaida on a global scale”, and used data-mining techniques to look for “patterns, associations, and linkages”. He said he himself had first encountered the names of the four hijackers in mid-2000." (http://www.globalres...text=va&aid=867)
Furthermore, in an article in USA Today, Steven Komarow and Tom Squitieri reported on May 18, 2004:
In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties. (http://www.usatoday....-18-norad_x.htm)

What, in my view, is terrifying, is that they were conducting multiple "simulations" on 9/11 itself, as 911proof.com points out:

On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony (http://www.911proof.com/9.html)
"19 Hijackers…"
The Zeitgeist documentary mentions an interesting allegation concerning Pakistan's ISI Chief, General Mahmud Ahmed. The ISI is the Pakistani equivalent of the US' CIA. The allegation is that Ahmed had requested that $100,000 be sent to Mohammed Atta, which most believe was the lead 9/11 hijacker. The evidence that this occurred can be found in many online sources, such as the following cached India Online article, written by the information minister of Pakistan at the time, which states:
“The fall of Ahmed was understandable and there is credible evidence linking him with the terrorists involved in the New York attacks. It is understood that Ahmed as ISI chief instructed Omar Sheikh, a Harkat-ul-Mujahideen terrorist freed during the Indian Airlines Kandahar hijacking, to send $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was involved in the kamikaze attack on the World Trade Center. Sheikh, who now lives near the Binori mosque in Karachi, was spotted in Islamabad at the time the money was transferred to Atta.”
(http://s3.amazonaws....oday101501.html)

A Times of India article confirms this report, and adds that the FBI and Indian Intelligence were also involved in uncovering the evidence.
(http://timesofindia..../1454238160.cms)

Zeitgeist also includes CNN footage that aired October 6, 2001, that bring up the findings as well.

Of further interest is the fact that on 9/11, Richard Leiby reports in the Washington post that General Ahmed was having breakfast with government officials in Washington, D.C. on September 11:
On the morning of Sept. 11, [Congressman] Goss and [Senator] Graham were having breakfast with a Pakistani general named Mahmud Ahmed -- the soon-to-be-sacked head of Pakistan's intelligence service. Ahmed ran a spy agency notoriously close to Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. (http://www.washingto...36091-2002May17)

In the same article, Richard Leiby reports that "the discussion that morning touched on Taliban links to terrorism, but Goss says his greatest worry was the dispute in Kashmir -- and the nuclear weapons possessed by feuding Pakistan and India."

However, at the end of the article, Leiby quotes Goss:
"You can spend two hours in here saying, 'I've talked to Porter Goss,' and still not have a clue what my plans and intentions are"

That quote is especially interesting because of another nugget of information from an informant named Randy Glass, regarding the other man at the meeting, Senator Bob Graham. As John Pacenti for the Palm Beach post reported:
In August 2001, just before Glass started to serve a seven-month sentence for a $6 million jewelry scam, he said he reached out to Sen. Bob Graham and U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler. He said he told staffers for both lawmakers that a Pakistani operative working for the Taliban known as R.G. Abbas made three references to imminent plans to attack the World Trade Center during the probe, which ended in June 2001.

At one meeting at New York's Tribeca Grill caught on tape, Abbas pointed to the World Trade Center and said, "Those towers are coming down," Glass said.

Glass also now says the State Department, in an effort to maintain good diplomatic relations with Pakistan, pulled the plug on the South Florida terrorist probe, believing Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf could control the militant terrorist faction of his government.

Personally, I wonder if perhaps more was at stake then good diplomatic relations with Pakistan.

Further down, the article states:
Graham acknowledged at [sic] news conference in Boca Raton last month that Glass had contact with his office before Sept. 11, 2001, about an attack on the World Trade Center. "I was concerned about that and a dozen other pieces of information which emanated from the summer of 2001," the senator said.

Graham later said he was unaware of Glass' information until after the terrorist attacks. Glass did speak to a Tallahassee staffer before the attacks but the impression was that Glass wanted Graham to intercede in his criminal case, Anderson said.

Eric Johnson, Wexler's chief of staff, said Glass contacted the office by phone before the terrorist attacks but there is no record of what happened to that information. Since then, other information provided by Glass has been passed on to the FBI.

Glass angrily denies he contacted the lawmakers so they could intercede in his criminal case. He said he wanted only to relay information on plans for an attack in which the World Trade Center had been mentioned. He does say he wanted his prison sentence postponed so he could continue his work.

When the attacks occurred, Glass was in federal prison at Eglin Air Force Base.

"When it happened I literally fell to my knees and started to cry," Glass said. "The frustration level that I had. Who could I tell?"

Continuing from the Zeitgeist documentary: "The 911 Commission deemed the financing of the attacks was "of little practical significance" in their official report."

Jumping to the part where they analyze the 9/11 Commission and its report, starting at 1:01:00, they elaborate on this point:
****
"Page 172 [of the 9/11 Comission Report]. "The US Government has not been able to determine the origin of the money used for the 9/11 attacks. Ultimately, the question is of little practical significance"

Audio: "The American authorities had not managed to trace the source of the funding, and then the most amazing and disingenuous statement: 'ultimately it is of little consequence'. It is of massive consequence!"

"Doesn't it matter who paid for 9/11?"
****

Continuing in Zeitgeist, an audio recording from David Ray Griffin, who states in a video recording:
"Evidence was also apparently planted. The passport of one of the hijackers of Flight 11, was allegedly found in the rubble."

Zeitgeist then continues with an audio recording from well known conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, who elaborates on the story of the passport:
"Goes through the fireball, through the side of the plane and comes down to the ground unscathed!"

Zeitgeist also claims that no evidence has ever linked any of the "hijackers" to Osama bin Laden.
Further in the Zeitgeist documentary, they focus in on Osama Bin Laden. They start off with what may well have been quite a freudian slip of the tongue for George W. Bush:

"Ofcourse we're after Saddam Hussein, I mean Osama Bin Laden…"

The reason this is interesting is because George Bush's vice president was interested in Saddam's oil fields well before 9/11 even occurred. Cheney directed a task force named after him well before 9/11, as Judicial watch makes clear after obtaining information from a Freedom of Information Act request:
"These are documents turned over by the Commerce Department, under a March 5, 2002 court order as a result of Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force. The documents contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as 2 charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents are dated March 2001."
(http://www.judicialw...raqi-oil-fields)

To be sure, there were commercial interests that wanted to put a pipeline through Afghanistan as well. As David Ray Griffin writes in his article, 9/11: Possible Motives Of The Bush Administration:
*******
In July 1998, the Taliban, after having failed in 1997 to take the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif, finally succeeded, giving it control of most of Afghanistan, including the entire pipeline route. After this victory CentGas immediately announced that it was "ready to proceed."37 Shortly thereafter, however, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were blown up, leading the United States to launch cruse missile strikes against OBL's camps in Afghanistan. These and related developments led Unocal to withdraw from CentGas, convinced that Afghanistan under the Taliban would never have the peace and stability needed for the pipeline project.38 Rashid, finishing his book in mid-1999, wrote that the Clinton Administration had shifted its support to the pipeline route from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey, adding that "by now nobody wanted to touch Afghanistan and the Taliban."39

When the Bush administration came to power, however, it decided to give the Taliban one last chance. This last chance occurred at a four-day meeting in Berlin in July 2001, which would need to be mentioned in any realistic account of how the US war in Afghanistan came about. According to the Pakistani representative at this meeting, Niaz Naik, US representatives, trying to convince the Taliban to share power with US-friendly factions, said: "Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs."40 Naik said that he was told by Americans that "military action against Afghanistan would go ahead...before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest."41 The US attack on Afghanistan began, in fact, on October 7, which was as soon as the US military could get ready after 9/11.42
(http://www.globalres...&articleId=1391)

The documentary continues with a speech from a former LAPD police officer named Michael C. Ruppert, who made an intense investigation of the 9/11 event. On his website, fromthewilderness.com, in a timeline of the events surrounding 9/11 he created, he states:
14.  January 2001 - The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to "back off" investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, Va. -- right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996 that frustrated efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast, Nov. 7, 2001]
In the next entry in his timeline, he states:
****
15.  Jan. 30, 2001 - Sept. 11 hijacker Ziad Jarrah was questioned in the United Arab Emirates (UAE). A number of UAE, Middle Eastern, European, and U.S. sources were cited in this CNN report, which said the CIA requested Jarrah be interrogated because he had been in Afghanistan and was suspected to have ties to terrorists. An unnamed CIA spokesman said the other sources' claims that the agency knew anything about Jarrah before Sept. 11 were "flatly untrue." Jarrah's Jan. 30 detainment at the airport in Dubai, UAE came six months after he took flying lessons in the U.S. Jarrah was released because "U.S. officials were satisfied," said the report. [Source: CNN, Aug. 1, 2002 http://www.cnn.com/2...er/index.html]
****

Zeitgeist continues with a video recording of David Ray Griffin, who states:
""When he was already America's most wanted criminal, he reportedly spent two weeks in the American hospital in Dubai, was treated by an American doctor, and visited by the local CIA agent."
Next, it presents a video recording of David Von Kleist, who wrote and produced the 9/11 film, In Plane Site [http://www.911inplanesite.com/]. He states:
"We have not seen one piece of evidence that links Osama bin Laden directly to the planning stages of September 11th."

Switching back to David Ray Griffin:
"…this failure to provide proof, was later said to be unnecessary because bin Laden, in a video allegedly found in Afghanistan admitted responsibility for the attacks. This confession now is widely cited as proof, but the man in this video has darker skin, fuller cheeks and a broader nose than Osama bin Laden in all other videos. We again seem to have planted evidence."

Switching back to Michael Rupert, Zeitgeist continues:
In 1976, Osama's older brother Salim bin Laden, hired a man in Texas by the name of Jim Bath to handle all the investments in the United States for the bin Ladin family. Jim Bath also happens to be a personal, almost a lifelong friend and former national guard pilot with George W. Bush. The connections between the Bushes and bin Ladins become much more clear (…) when George Herbert Walker Bush made trips to Saudi Arabia in 1998 and 2000 to meet with the bin Ladin family on behalf of the company the Carlyle Group.

Zeitgeist continues:
George H.W. Bush was meeting with Osama's older brother, Shafig bin Laden, on the morning of 9/11 in a Carlyle Group function. The Carlyle Group is one of the world's largest defense contractors, which continue to reap massive profits off of the post 911 "War on Terrorism" and Afghan/Iraq Wars.

#38    flyingswan

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 10:48 AM

View PostScott G, on 30 March 2010 - 02:18 AM, said:

Continuing in Zeitgeist, an audio recording from David Ray Griffin, who states in a video recording:
"Evidence was also apparently planted. The passport of one of the hijackers of Flight 11, was allegedly found in the rubble."

Zeitgeist then continues with an audio recording from well known conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, who elaborates on the story of the passport:
"Goes through the fireball, through the side of the plane and comes down to the ground unscathed!"
A very weak point, small pieces of paperwork have a much better chance of surviving a crash than their owners.  Happens all the time.
Among the thousands of items recovered from crash sites and on show is a final message a doomed passenger scrawled onto an air sickness bag as his plane went down, asking his wife to take care of their children.

Another harrowing note is a woman’s last, desperate plea to survive, written onto an emergency evacuation leaflet while her airliner was on fire high over Japan, minutes before it plowed into the ground.

http://www.thejakart...es-alive/334285
"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#39    Scott G

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 11:30 AM

View Postflyingswan, on 31 March 2010 - 10:48 AM, said:

A very weak point, small pieces of paperwork have a much better chance of surviving a crash than their owners.  Happens all the time.
Among the thousands of items recovered from crash sites and on show is a final message a doomed passenger scrawled onto an air sickness bag as his plane went down, asking his wife to take care of their children.

Another harrowing note is a woman’s last, desperate plea to survive, written onto an emergency evacuation leaflet while her airliner was on fire high over Japan, minutes before it plowed into the ground.

http://www.thejakart...es-alive/334285

I know the plane you mention was on fire, but was it engulfed in a fireball as enormous as the one that engulfed the second plane to hit a WTC building?

Edited by Scott G, 31 March 2010 - 11:31 AM.


#40    flyingswan

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 11:54 AM

View PostScott G, on 31 March 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

I know the plane you mention was on fire, but was it engulfed in a fireball as enormous as the one that engulfed the second plane to hit a WTC building?
The Japanese 747 flew into a mountain, I imagine there was quite a fireball.

Once an aircraft impacts, the skin is shredded, so no problem for any debris to exit the aircraft.  

An explosion generates a shockwave that travels ahead of the fireball flamefront, and between these there is a strong outward flow of air.  This is what blows small pieces of paper and other similar debris clear of the fireball.

Edited by flyingswan, 31 March 2010 - 11:54 AM.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#41    Scott G

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 10:04 AM

View Postflyingswan, on 31 March 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

The Japanese 747 flew into a mountain, I imagine there was quite a fireball.

Once an aircraft impacts, the skin is shredded, so no problem for any debris to exit the aircraft.  

An explosion generates a shockwave that travels ahead of the fireball flamefront, and between these there is a strong outward flow of air.  This is what blows small pieces of paper and other similar debris clear of the fireball.

Alright, I admit that this sounds reasonable.

#42    Q24

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 01:39 PM

Notwithstanding the low probability of the passport surviving the crash, there is a rather large discrepancy: the passport was reported by CNN to be “found in the vicinity of Vesey Street”, North of WTC1.

Why is this a problem?

The hijacker to which the passport belonged was allegedly on Flight 11.  This aircraft entered WTC1 from the North and debris exited to the South.  The landing gear was found at the junction of West Street and Rector Street.

Here is the area: -

Posted Image


The fact that the passport is reported to have been found in an area inconsistent with the aircraft’s direction of travel and the documented debris is supportive of the conclusion that it may have been planted evidence.

There are two possible defences to this which I will address…

First it could be claimed that the passport, after entering the building, was blown back out of the entry hole it had just made.  This is unrealistic as debris did not exit the building until after the cockpit had already entered well inside – this is seen in WTC2 impact footage (which would be expected to correspond with the WTC1 impact) and the simulations carried out by NIST: -

Posted Image

I have marked the expected passport location and as can be seen, debris does not exit the building until the third image.

Due to the impact hole being only the general size and shape of the aircraft, the only way for the passport to exit the building to the North would be by it somehow travelling back through the body and/or wings of the aircraft.  Perhaps the resultant explosion of the impact somehow caused this to happen?  As flyingswan has just described, “An explosion generates a shockwave that travels ahead of the fireball flamefront, and between these there is a strong outward flow of air.”  In this case the explosion originates from fuel stored in the wings behind the cockpit and so would only carry debris ahead of that point futher into the building.

There is no way that the passport entered from the North and also exited to the North.

And so the second possible explanation – the CNN report is mistaken and the passport was not “found in the vicinity of Vesey Street” but on the opposite side of the WTC complex.  I wouldn’t be comfortable to write off and adapt a story so quickly in this way simply to fit my view with no supporting evidence.

However we look at it, the passport find was very convenient to initially identifying the hijackers and tying them to the scene… as was the fact that Atta’s luggage happenned not to make it onto the flight amongst other such coincidental discoveries.

As an intelligence official was quoted as stating, “Whatever trail was left was left deliberately - for the F.B.I. to chase.”  Including a passport?

How very fortunate.
Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#43    Scott G

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 07:21 PM

Thanks Q24. It's comments like yours that make me think one day, I might write a book on 9/11, complete with credits for all the people who've put in bits like yours, laugh :-). I finally handed in my final draft of my essay today, but I didn't see your post before I handed it in. I think that I may eventually put it up on a web page and link to it in this thread.

#44    flyingswan

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:33 AM

View PostQ24, on 01 April 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

And so the second possible explanation – the CNN report is mistaken and the passport was not “found in the vicinity of Vesey Street” but on the opposite side of the WTC complex.  I wouldn’t be comfortable to write off and adapt a story so quickly in this way simply to fit my view with no supporting evidence.
Or the third possibility, that however the passport left the building, in its fall from the impact level it was blown by the wind to where it was found.  The wind direction on the day would be irrelevent, high buildings are know for their generation of all sorts of eddies in the wind.
"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#45    Q24

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 01:51 PM

View Postflyingswan, on 02 April 2010 - 10:33 AM, said:

Or the third possibility, that however the passport left the building, in its fall from the impact level it was blown by the wind to where it was found.  The wind direction on the day would be irrelevent, high buildings are know for their generation of all sorts of eddies in the wind.
We can include that possibility, let’s take a look: -

The plane was travelling South.
The plane debris was found South.
The wind direction on 9/11 was South/South-East.
The smoke quickly drifted South/South-East.

Eddies carried the passport around the building and North?    :hmm:

I won’t say that it’s impossible though, as we have become accustomed to of the official 9/11 narrative, it does strain credulity.
Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.




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