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Ahura Mazda Anhriman -Zoraistrian (Ancient Re


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#1    Big Chief

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:29 AM

You know I was looking at a movie the other day and it was about the Pagan God(s) before the Abrahamic religions of today. Funny thing is, its 1000's of years older than Judaism, Christianity and Islam but it has alot of similarities and stories of those religions. Here it is. Tell me what you think:


    In ancient Persian religion (Zoroastrianism), Ahriman (aka Arimanius or Angra Mainya) stood high in the ranks of the enemies who opposed Ahura Mazda (aka Ohrmazd or Oromasdes). Ahriman is thought to be the first personification of "the Devil" because Zoroastrians believed in a completely dualistic form of religion.

    Four Stands in Zoroastrianism
    There are four major stands in Zoroastrianism. The first is that of Zarathustra (Zoroaster). The second is of the teachings of Mazdaism, which made Ahriman creator and leader of the daevas. The third is that of Zeravansim, and the fourth is that of the Magi.

    Teachings of Zarathustra
    Zarathustra believed that one of the ahuras, Ahura Mazda, was the supreme god, and chose to be good, while Ahriman chose to be evil. Therefore, the daevas that opposed the ahuras chose to be evil as well, and were commonly thought of as demons. All things in Zoroastrian have free will and choose whether they want to be good or evil.

    Mazdaist Traditions
    In Mazdaist traditions, in the beginning there were two spirits, Ahura Mazda and Ahriman. These two spirits were separated by a void. Ahura Mazda was thought to be characterized by goodness, light, and he was unlimited in time but not in space. He was free of all evil, and does not create or willingly tolerate evil. Ahriman was represented as evil and limited by time because he knew eventually Ahura Mazda would defeat him, and he was also limited by space.

    Because there was a void separating the two, in the beginning, Ahura Mazda knew of Ahriman but Ahriman did not know of Ahura Mazda. Ahura Mazda wanted to free himself from his own limitation in space, but he knew that by doing so, he would have to initiate a struggle with Ahriman, which he did not want to do. In time, though, Ahriman saw a light across the void and envied and lusted for it. He then created the evil things of this world (such as the daevas) to fight against the good things Ahura Mazda created.1. Ahura Mazda offered Ahriman peace if Ahriman would worship the good things Ahura Mazda created, but Ahriman refused, and Ahura Mazda showed Ahriman his inevitable fate. Ahriman was stunned and fell into the void for a period of time. When he awakened, he engaged in war with Ahura Mazda, which Ahura Mazda won and finally destroyed Ahriman.

    Zeranism Traditions
    In the Zeranism tradition, there is one ur-principle called Zurvan, who is the All. He contains all good and evil, and is also infinite in time. Zurvan then wishes for a son, and so his wife, who is actually the female half of his androgynous nature, gives birth to two sons. One (Ahura Mazda) is the product of love and desire, while the other (Ahriman) is the result of a moment of doubt. Ahriman is born first and assumes the birth rite. In this way Ahriman was Ahura Mazda's brother, and they each held equal sway over the world.

    According to the Vendidad, Ahriman co-created the world with Ahura Mazda, countering evil with everything good Ahura Mazda created. He created "the serpent in the river, and Winter, a work of the Daevas," "the locust, which brings death unto cattle and plants," "plunder and sin," "the ants and the ant-hills," "the sin of unbelief," "tears and wailing," "the Pairika Knathaiti, who claves unto Keresaspa," "the sin of pride," "a sin for which there is no atonement, the unnatural sin," "the evil work of witchcraft," "the sin of utter unbelief," "a sin for which there is no atonement, the cooking of corpse," and "abnormal issues in women, and barbarian oppression". He also created creates 99,999 diseases.

    2.He also attempted to maim the divine prophet Zarathustra. He first sent the demon Buiti to kill Zarathustra, but the prophet chanted aloud the Ahuna-Vairya, and the demon fled back to Ahrian. Ahriman himself then 'rushed forth from the regions of the North to lure away the Prophet from the path of righteousness,' but the prophet resisted the temptation and affirmed that he would never do the bidding of Ahriman.

    Later texts refer to Ahura Mazda as having created six (sometimes seven) Amesha Spenta, or archangels. Angra Mainya also created a council of six (sometimes seven) archdemons. The archdemons (daevas) are known as Aka Manah, Indra, Sauru, Taurvi, Zairitsha, and Naonhaithya (the seventh is Aeshma).

    3.Eventually, Ahriman will be defeated by the coming of a Saoshyant or Saviour. Ancient texts refer to three great souls who are designated to be Saoshyants. The third of these will destroy evil and bring forth the reign of righteousness. The coming is referred to in the Farvardin Yasht, which says he will be the son of Zarathustra and will be conceived through a virgin called 'the all-destroying' (Yasht xiii.142; Vendidad xix.5). He will be assisted by his friends, who are fiend-smitting, well-thinking, well-speaking, well-doing, and whose tongues have never uttered a word of falsehood (Yasht xiii.142).

    4.After this, the world will be restored, the dead will arise, and life and immortality will come.

    "With the disappearance of evil from the universe, good will prevail everywhere and for all time; and the accursed name of Angra Mainya will be forgotten. Ahura Mazda will be for ever, even as he has been from all eternity" (Yasht xix.11,12).



    Doesn't this story sound alot like God and the Devil in the Bible and Jesus coming back as saviour to destroy all evil in the world. The God, Ahura Mazda, offered the evil God, Ahriman, peace if he would worship his good creation. Sounds like God telling the Devil to bow down to Adam and the devil refuses to do so and is sent to hell. Ahriman also refused and was sent to another void in time. Also, their saviour will be from a virgin birth like Jesus. I wonder if these stories were passed down from generation to generation and the names just changed. I find it hard to believe that the same savior from a virgin birth who will come back to destroy all evil in the world is actually Jesus in the Christian Bible. What do you think??


#2    Mainpoint

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:47 AM

View PostBig Chief, on 26 March 2010 - 04:29 AM, said:

You know I was looking at a movie the other day and it was about the Pagan God(s) before the Abrahamic religions of today. Funny thing is, its 1000's of years older than Judaism, Christianity and Islam but it has alot of similarities and stories of those religions. Here it is. Tell me what you think:


In ancient Persian religion (Zoroastrianism), Ahriman (aka Arimanius or Angra Mainya) stood high in the ranks of the enemies who opposed Ahura Mazda (aka Ohrmazd or Oromasdes). Ahriman is thought to be the first personification of "the Devil" because Zoroastrians believed in a completely dualistic form of religion.

Four Stands in Zoroastrianism
There are four major stands in Zoroastrianism. The first is that of Zarathustra (Zoroaster). The second is of the teachings of Mazdaism, which made Ahriman creator and leader of the daevas. The third is that of Zeravansim, and the fourth is that of the Magi.

Teachings of Zarathustra
Zarathustra believed that one of the ahuras, Ahura Mazda, was the supreme god, and chose to be good, while Ahriman chose to be evil. Therefore, the daevas that opposed the ahuras chose to be evil as well, and were commonly thought of as demons. All things in Zoroastrian have free will and choose whether they want to be good or evil.

Mazdaist Traditions
In Mazdaist traditions, in the beginning there were two spirits, Ahura Mazda and Ahriman. These two spirits were separated by a void. Ahura Mazda was thought to be characterized by goodness, light, and he was unlimited in time but not in space. He was free of all evil, and does not create or willingly tolerate evil. Ahriman was represented as evil and limited by time because he knew eventually Ahura Mazda would defeat him, and he was also limited by space.

Because there was a void separating the two, in the beginning, Ahura Mazda knew of Ahriman but Ahriman did not know of Ahura Mazda. Ahura Mazda wanted to free himself from his own limitation in space, but he knew that by doing so, he would have to initiate a struggle with Ahriman, which he did not want to do. In time, though, Ahriman saw a light across the void and envied and lusted for it. He then created the evil things of this world (such as the daevas) to fight against the good things Ahura Mazda created.1. Ahura Mazda offered Ahriman peace if Ahriman would worship the good things Ahura Mazda created, but Ahriman refused, and Ahura Mazda showed Ahriman his inevitable fate. Ahriman was stunned and fell into the void for a period of time. When he awakened, he engaged in war with Ahura Mazda, which Ahura Mazda won and finally destroyed Ahriman.

Zeranism Traditions
In the Zeranism tradition, there is one ur-principle called Zurvan, who is the All. He contains all good and evil, and is also infinite in time. Zurvan then wishes for a son, and so his wife, who is actually the female half of his androgynous nature, gives birth to two sons. One (Ahura Mazda) is the product of love and desire, while the other (Ahriman) is the result of a moment of doubt. Ahriman is born first and assumes the birth rite. In this way Ahriman was Ahura Mazda's brother, and they each held equal sway over the world.

According to the Vendidad, Ahriman co-created the world with Ahura Mazda, countering evil with everything good Ahura Mazda created. He created "the serpent in the river, and Winter, a work of the Daevas," "the locust, which brings death unto cattle and plants," "plunder and sin," "the ants and the ant-hills," "the sin of unbelief," "tears and wailing," "the Pairika Knathaiti, who claves unto Keresaspa," "the sin of pride," "a sin for which there is no atonement, the unnatural sin," "the evil work of witchcraft," "the sin of utter unbelief," "a sin for which there is no atonement, the cooking of corpse," and "abnormal issues in women, and barbarian oppression". He also created creates 99,999 diseases.

2.He also attempted to maim the divine prophet Zarathustra. He first sent the demon Buiti to kill Zarathustra, but the prophet chanted aloud the Ahuna-Vairya, and the demon fled back to Ahrian. Ahriman himself then 'rushed forth from the regions of the North to lure away the Prophet from the path of righteousness,' but the prophet resisted the temptation and affirmed that he would never do the bidding of Ahriman.

Later texts refer to Ahura Mazda as having created six (sometimes seven) Amesha Spenta, or archangels. Angra Mainya also created a council of six (sometimes seven) archdemons. The archdemons (daevas) are known as Aka Manah, Indra, Sauru, Taurvi, Zairitsha, and Naonhaithya (the seventh is Aeshma).

3.Eventually, Ahriman will be defeated by the coming of a Saoshyant or Saviour. Ancient texts refer to three great souls who are designated to be Saoshyants. The third of these will destroy evil and bring forth the reign of righteousness. The coming is referred to in the Farvardin Yasht, which says he will be the son of Zarathustra and will be conceived through a virgin called 'the all-destroying' (Yasht xiii.142; Vendidad xix.5). He will be assisted by his friends, who are fiend-smitting, well-thinking, well-speaking, well-doing, and whose tongues have never uttered a word of falsehood (Yasht xiii.142).

4.After this, the world will be restored, the dead will arise, and life and immortality will come.

"With the disappearance of evil from the universe, good will prevail everywhere and for all time; and the accursed name of Angra Mainya will be forgotten. Ahura Mazda will be for ever, even as he has been from all eternity" (Yasht xix.11,12).



Doesn't this story sound alot like God and the Devil in the Bible and Jesus coming back as saviour to destroy all evil in the world. The God, Ahura Mazda, offered the evil God, Ahriman, peace if he would worship his good creation. Sounds like God telling the Devil to bow down to Adam and the devil refuses to do so and is sent to hell. Ahriman also refused and was sent to another void in time. Also, their saviour will be from a virgin birth like Jesus. I wonder if these stories were passed down from generation to generation and the names just changed. I find it hard to believe that the same savior from a virgin birth who will come back to destroy all evil in the world is actually Jesus in the Christian Bible. What do you think??

Interesting post

As far as I know Islam is the only religion that recognizes different prophets sent to humanity in different points in time and at different places. The only issue is that in ancient time with not so perfect methods of record keeping yet developed the whole information about these messages has been lost or Gods words were only applicable during a certain point in time to address challenges faced by humanity unique to a certain civilization.

Some scholars postulate Zoroaster may have been one of those prophets being the founding prophet of the Magians.

Posted Image

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#3    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:21 PM

View PostMainpoint, on 26 March 2010 - 11:47 AM, said:

Interesting post

As far as I know Islam is the only religion that recognizes different prophets sent to humanity in different points in time and at different places. The only issue is that in ancient time with not so perfect methods of record keeping yet developed the whole information about these messages has been lost or Gods words were only applicable during a certain point in time to address challenges faced by humanity unique to a certain civilization.

Some scholars postulate Zoroaster may have been one of those prophets being the founding prophet of the Magians.

I don't know as much as I would like about Zoroasterism but very interesting thread. I had considered Ahriman the original Samael of the Bible especially with the refusing to worshi art of it. Recently though I had read at estimated date of around 1,400bce thus before Abraham. However, chances are that source was wrong and Ahriman V Ahura Mazda was the original war of duality.

Couple of thinfs, is Ahriman, Angra Manya, the angry man or is that Kain do you think? Also, is Zoroaster the same guy as Zarauthsutra (sorry for spelling) I do get a little confused but considering the kength of time we could be talking about and the seeming attemt to suress this faith, that is to be expected.

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#4    Cybele

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:49 PM

View PostBig Chief, on 26 March 2010 - 04:29 AM, said:

    Doesn't this story sound alot like God and the Devil in the Bible and Jesus coming back as saviour to destroy all evil in the world. The God, Ahura Mazda, offered the evil God, Ahriman, peace if he would worship his good creation. Sounds like God telling the Devil to bow down to Adam and the devil refuses to do so and is sent to hell. Ahriman also refused and was sent to another void in time. Also, their saviour will be from a virgin birth like Jesus. I wonder if these stories were passed down from generation to generation and the names just changed. I find it hard to believe that the same savior from a virgin birth who will come back to destroy all evil in the world is actually Jesus in the Christian Bible. What do you think??

Yes it does. The dualistic beliefs of Christianity have their origin in Zoroastrianism.

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#5    mtndwellar

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 05:32 PM

Truth is truth and it has been around since before Christianity.  
From studying various religious structures, we see that the same elements appear repeatedly.  These elements can appear in places where there is no known physical connection.  Christ told us that the church is within.  It was within before he arrived.


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Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:12 PM

View PostBig Chief, on 26 March 2010 - 04:29 AM, said:

You know I was looking at a movie the other day and it was about the Pagan God(s) before the Abrahamic religions of today. Funny thing is, its 1000's of years older than Judaism, Christianity and Islam but it has alot of similarities and stories of those religions.
Hi Big Chief,

Just curious, but what movie was it exactly that you were looking at that discussed this issue about pagan gods before the Abrahamics?????  :alien:

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#7    Big Chief

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 02:10 AM

Oh snap, the movie I was watching didn't discuss the Pagan Gods. It just mentioned Ahura Mazda and that movie was "The Wishmaster". :lol: It just made me look into the Ahura Mazda thing. You know what I believe. The Bible was written from ancient text of older religions but the names just changes. In the Jewish text, they always talked about a coming messiah who was going to be from the seed of David. I believe they got that from the Zorastrian scriptures. Also, notice how the Zoraistrians believed that "unbelief" was a sin that was given no atonement.

  Just like Christians say that unbelief in God is a sin and you will go to hell. That concept was well inplace far before Christianity. Notice also how God chose to be good and Ahamrin and the daevas(devils) chose to be evil. Looks like "free will" to me. I believe that Zoraistran, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are all the same things just with different names for Gods,Devil and prophets.

  I believe people may have interpreted different scriptures differently through the generations. The main points are still the same but the names and some stories change slightly. Ahura Mazda changed to Yahweh, Jesus and then Allah. Ahriman now changes to Satan. Daevas now changed to Demons. The "sin of unbelief" with no atonement is now changed to "Unbelief in God and you will go to Hell". Same things just under different names.

Interesting, I will now look at Ancient Egyptian beliefs and post them here..


#8    Mainpoint

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:18 PM

View PostBig Chief, on 27 March 2010 - 02:10 AM, said:

Oh snap, the movie I was watching didn't discuss the Pagan Gods. It just mentioned Ahura Mazda and that movie was "The Wishmaster". Posted Image It just made me look into the Ahura Mazda thing. You know what I believe. The Bible was written from ancient text of older religions but the names just changes. In the Jewish text, they always talked about a coming messiah who was going to be from the seed of David. I believe they got that from the Zorastrian scriptures. Also, notice how the Zoraistrians believed that "unbelief" was a sin that was given no atonement.

  Just like Christians say that unbelief in God is a sin and you will go to hell. That concept was well inplace far before Christianity. Notice also how God chose to be good and Ahamrin and the daevas(devils) chose to be evil. Looks like "free will" to me. I believe that Zoraistran, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are all the same things just with different names for Gods,Devil and prophets.

  I believe people may have interpreted different scriptures differently through the generations. The main points are still the same but the names and some stories change slightly. Ahura Mazda changed to Yahweh, Jesus and then Allah. Ahriman now changes to Satan. Daevas now changed to Demons. The "sin of unbelief" with no atonement is now changed to "Unbelief in God and you will go to Hell". Same things just under different names.

Interesting, I will now look at Ancient Egyptian beliefs and post them here..

not only the interpetation itself but the actual message itself has been lost with these earlier religions. In a way if Adam was the first man he should have known all off Gods commandments. However with passage of time the God words being diluted or even corrupted has required coming of prophets such as Noah Moses Jesus Muhammad PBUH and many more. It could be Zoroaster be one of them. What Zoraoster originally taught or what he said with 100% origniality is a matter of conjecture.

Edited by Mainpoint, 27 March 2010 - 12:19 PM.

Posted Image

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#9    Cybele

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 05:01 PM

View Postmtndwellar, on 26 March 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

From studying various religious structures, we see that the same elements appear repeatedly.  These elements can appear in places where there is no known physical connection.  Christ told us that the church is within.  It was within before he arrived.

Except that, in this case, there is clear evidence of friendly interaction between Jews and Persians. The Persian king Cyrus the Great freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity and his successor, Darius, aided in the rebuilding of their temple in Jerusalem. It is likely that the Jews assimilated some cultural and religious beliefs of the Persians.

After the overthrow of Babylonia by the Persian Empire, the Persian ruler Cyrus the Great gave Jews permission to return to the Province of Judah in 538 BCE,[11][12][13] and more than 40,000 are said to have returned, as noted in the Biblical accounts of Jehoiakim, Ezra, and Nehemiah.[14]

The Babylonian captivity had a number of consequences on Judaism and the Jewish culture, including changes to the Hebrew alphabet and changes in the fundamental practices and customs of the Jewish religion. This period saw the last high-point of Biblical prophecy in the person of Ezekiel, followed by the emergence of the central role of the Torah in Jewish life.[15] This process coincided with the emergence of scribes and sages as Jewish leaders (see Ezra and the Pharisees).


http://en.wikipedia....onian_captivity

During the five centuries contact, interaction between the two traditions took place. The Jews under the Persian influence developed eschatology, angelology and demonology, and renewed hope for future in terms of victory of good over evil, advent of Messiah and establishing the Kingdom of Yahweh. Many of these doctrinal concepts, later were transferred to Christianity and Islam and the latter actually expanded them.

http://www.zarathush...lconnection.htm

http://www.realdevil.info/1-1-1.htm

http://www.sullivan-....com/z/zor5.htm

http://www.zoroastri...influences.html

In addition, Christianity adopted these doctrines from Zoroastrianism: baptism, communion - the haoma ceremony, guardian angels, the heavenly journey of the soul, worship on Sunday, the celebration of Mithras' birthday on December 25th, celibate priests that mediate between man and God, the Trinity, Zvarnah - the idea that emanations from the sun are collected in the head and radiate in the form of nimbus and rays, and asha-arta, "the true prayer".

http://www.cais-soas...m_influence.htm

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#10    hetrodoxly

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 08:20 AM

View PostBig Chief, on 26 March 2010 - 04:29 AM, said:


Doesn't this story sound alot like God and the Devil in the Bible and Jesus coming back as saviour to destroy all evil in the world. The God, Ahura Mazda, offered the evil God, Ahriman, peace if he would worship his good creation. Sounds like God telling the Devil to bow down to Adam and the devil refuses to do so and is sent to hell. Ahriman also refused and was sent to another void in time. Also, their saviour will be from a virgin birth like Jesus. I wonder if these stories were passed down from generation to generation and the names just changed. I find it hard to believe that the same savior from a virgin birth who will come back to destroy all evil in the world is actually Jesus in the Christian Bible. What do you think??
Zoroastrianism is a branch of, or continuation of the Magi, who foretold the Birth of the son of god so therefore started Christianity.

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#11    hetrodoxly

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 08:26 AM

View PostMainpoint, on 27 March 2010 - 12:18 PM, said:

not only the interpetation itself but the actual message itself has been lost with these earlier religions. In a way if Adam was the first man he should have known all off Gods commandments. However with passage of time the God words being diluted or even corrupted has required coming of prophets such as Noah Moses Jesus Muhammad PBUH
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Was Jesus wrong?

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#12    Cybele

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 03:21 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 28 March 2010 - 08:20 AM, said:

Zoroastrianism is a branch of, or continuation of the Magi, who foretold the Birth of the son of god so therefore started Christianity.

The Magi? Care to expand on that?

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#13    hetrodoxly

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 08:32 PM

View PostCybele, on 28 March 2010 - 03:21 PM, said:

The Magi? Care to expand on that?
Wise men of the bible who foretold the birth of Jesus and followed the star?
the magi (magâunô)the religious caste into which Zoroaster was born,

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