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#1    Sunlit_Coyote

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 07:19 PM

     Here is a Question for yall...
    One Day there was guy who killed a mother of three.The Guy that did the murder was apprehended and is now in jail. Now if they say when you die god wants you to be with him and if thats true why are they punishing the guy who did the murder? And If God didnt want you to die yet why not let you live ?
( It was my mother who was Killed) And Yes I am still angry at the guy who did it but the church say to forgive,
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#2    aislin

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 08:21 PM

I cannot say that I have experience what you have. I would not wish it on anyone. I do believe in forgiveness to a certain extent, but to ask you to forgive this man could be asking to much. Rember that what Jesus said was "he who hates his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE" i do believe you have a cause. a lot of people like to quote scriptures but they always leave out half of it.

Rember, just not to let it control your life, I was kicked out of the church I served at because my now wife and I got married. I find it hard to be nice to him at times "the pastor who broke into my home and started a fight with me before i called the cops on him." but I will not let this man control my relation ship with God. to do that will give him to much control over my life.


#3    RyuujinBlueZ

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 08:51 PM

Heh, that's a good argument for atheists to use. I've actually done that one before, and have yet to get an answer that fully makes sense.

One is that God wanted the person to die, and come to Him. So He did this thing and sent the murderer to kill them.

But then you have the problem of punishment, because if it was God's idea then the murderer isn't at fault for it and shouldn't be blamed. In that case, you could point a finger at God.

So if you want to follow that logic, murder is not a sin because it must all be part of God's plan in some way. But that means that:

1. The Bible, which says murder is a sin, is wrong.
2. We don't really have free will, merely an illusion of such.

What it comes down to, is what you want to believe in. You can forgive the guy, and try to get him pardoned because God wanted him to kill the woman. You can let him rot in jail for commiting a sin, which must have been part of God's plan.

The first is more than any human can ask of oneself, but the last requires you give up the ideal of free will to an exent.


Have fun with that, and I hope I was of some help.  wink2.gif  

You walk by me every day, but you have no idea.
I sit there, in the corner all alone.
If I got up, would you know then?
What would be your last thoughts,
As I slit your throat and drank of the sight of your blood.
Would you think, "Who is this person?"
Or would it be, "I should have kept walking, today."

#4    Todd

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 01:24 PM

Sunlit, my heart goes out to you. I lost my mother as well, but not in a violent way and for that I am grateful. God does'nt micro-manage the world today, and because of that, humans are commiting all manner of sins and seemingly getting away with it. Rest assured that this is'nt the case. Everyone will answer for what they've done at the time of Judgement so even if someone seems to get off scott free with a vicious act, there will be consequences. The Bible says that the rain falls on the just and unjust. What this means is that good things might happen to bad people and bad things might happen to good people. This is a tough concept to understand much less accept but it's the truth.We all have the free will that he gave us, to do either evil or good and we ca'nt blame him when we do evil, that's a cop out. If we live our lives in such a way that we're concience of eternity and our place in it, then we'll all live better lives.


#5    Nxt2Hvn

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 02:05 PM

Great post Todd... well said! thumbsup.gif

I Really Like You Todd!!   wink2.gif   I admire your strong Faith and hope you hang around for a long time here at UM.  Don't let people weaken your Faith here... it is good to meet someone here that share the same Faith and Beliefs that I do.

Take Care,
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#6    Q-La

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 03:23 PM

God want something that can only come of our free will.  And with free will, it's this world we get.  Some people are decent, others murderers.  This world isn't in a perfect state yet.  We as human have a miserably short life span and want all rewards and punishment to be done within this life span, but the decades are nothing really.

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#7    Chauncy

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 06:45 PM

As unfortunate as it is, the individual that commits such a crime, according to Christian mythology, needs do nothing more than pray to God and ask for forgiveness, if he accepts Jesus then he is absolved of his sins and will be allowed into heaven.

It is this absolving of acts that makes the religion so attractive. It's like "oops, I did bad.....oh but you didn't read the fine print.....I'm a christian"

QUOTE
Everyone will answer for what they've done at the time of Judgement so even if someone seems to get off scott free with a vicious act, there will be consequences.


What consequences? A murderer asking for forgiveness, according to Christian mythology, will be rewarded in heaven. Are you saying that God will punish these murders regadless of thier faith and worship?

It is this blatant contradiction in moral philosophy that makes this Christian mythology so obviously wrong. Our observations and experiences prove this concept to be full of errors. No matter how you dress it up with literary devices.

As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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#8    Todd

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 11:14 PM

First off, I'd like to say THANK YOU to you Nxt2Hvn, the encouragement is very much appreciated.  grin2.gif Some of these posts get vicious! sad.gif  And Chauncy, man oh man, when are you going to cheer up? This kind of stuff CAN be uplifting as well as intellectually stimulating. tongue.gif Now back to the deep stuff. Moral philosophy is a human construct. Just because something does'nt seem right to us does'nt mean that it's wrong. In more cases than alot of us would like to admit, we accept what we want to accept, and reject what we want to reject. We justify these things to ourselves through various questionable methods, but in the end that's what it comes down to for many of us, preferance. Give me TRUTH any day.

Edited by Todd, 30 June 2004 - 02:19 AM.


#9    Chauncy

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 08:56 AM

I agree that a 'moral philosophy' in a sense is a human construct, for sure.

QUOTE
Moral philosophy is a human construct. Just because something does'nt seem right to us does'nt mean that it's wrong. In more cases than alot of us would like to admit, we accept what we want to accept, and reject what we want to reject. We justify these things to ourselves through various questionable methods, but in the end that's what it comes down to for many of us, preferance.


There is a greying of moral ground that is usually defined by the observer or individual. But there is a solid color I believe of moral exactness. And it seems that the "preference" of most is exact.

Where as in the context of a 'murder' knowing the facts, indeed sorting out all the variables that contributed to the crime, would allow a person or a group to correctly reflect on any level of morality involved.

Usually, when the justice system works properly, any variables that may constitute a moral grey area is reflected in the exact charge and later in the sentence.

Lets say a guy beating his wife. In some cultures there is no moral dilema with this. But that doesn't mean that morality is a matter of perspective, or that this is a grey area because regardless, it is still wrong!

As far as our individual actions are concerned, no matter how much someone rationalizes the moral justification of thier transgression, if there is one moment that there is a feeling of immorality, then that person does in fact know that they did wrong.

No matter what type of immorality is discussed, there will always be a group or person that views it as morally acceptable. So all though it seems wrong to some and not to others, a moral exactness can still be arrived at.





As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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#10    Todd

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 04:20 PM

  wink2.gif Chauncy I never thought I'd say this, but I actually agree with you! I do believe that there is a central moral ground of decency. People who cross this moral divide are wrong in the absolute sense, the only question being whether or not they were wrong on purpose. I'm going to stop here while we are actually in agreement, as this is a rare occasion indeed and should be valued as such. original.gif  


#11    MoonBaby

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Sunlit_Coyote @ Jun 26 2004, 02:19 PM)
Here is a Question for yall...
    One Day there was guy who killed a mother of three.The Guy that did the murder was apprehended and is now in jail. Now if they say when you die god wants you to be with him and if thats true why are they punishing the guy who did the murder? And If God didnt want you to die yet why not let you live ?
( It was my mother who was Killed) And Yes I am still angry at the guy who did it but the church say to forgive,
Sunlit***

I have the deepest empathy you. I know it hurts, but have faith that he will get his in the end. If not in this life then the next. Karma's a bitch. Consider it a growing experience and know you'll see your mom again someday.

"This concept of 'wub' confuses and infuriates us!"
~Futurama <---- the aliens

#12    GreenmansGod

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:29 AM

I had to think about this a long time.  Not being a christian,  I don't believe that you can be forgiven for murder.  Like Moonbaby says Karma's a Bitch.  You don't have to forgive him, but don't let this man rule your life with hate.  Your Mother would not want you to do that.  There are times when a person has wronged me that I simply look them in the eye and say "you no longer exist".  And after a while they don't. I find that about the worst thing I can do to a person, because a** holes want attention.  I am not sure I could do that if someone killed my Mother.  Look at it this way in his next life maybe he will come back as a worm on a worm farm  to end up on a fisherman's hook.  Kind of makes one want to take up fishing.
I am so sorry for your lost, but she is still there watching over you and loving you.
Blessings to you and your family.  

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